Stand alone ALH TDI for stationary power.

alha

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Nov 22, 2014
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MN
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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
Hello, I am considering using and ALH for a stationary power unit, and was wondering if anyone could point me to a few threads they know of which might guide me in terms of necessary parts from the donor vehicle to get it running outside of a car on a stand? I figured that posting this in the conversions section would be more fruitful and made the most sense, but if there is a better place, could a mod please move it for me?

I did a few searches, but haven't really hit upon anything that I'd consider concise in terms of what is and isn't needed, but that could just be my searching talents are lacking. Any thoughts or suggestions as to which year/vehicle combo would be ideal are also appreciated! Also thinks to watch out for/gotchas as well.
 

Mikkijayne

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Devon, UK
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Audi S8
Ive thought about this from time to time for a standby generator. I've never seen one done, but you wouldn't need anything other the ECU really - de-immobilized obviously. The wiring is pretty simple depending on how much instrumentation you want. One plug does the engine, and the other goes in to the car so you just need to pick out the wires you need. Have a look around for the VW marine engines for inspiration, since they have many similar characteristics - there are a couple of threads on marinisation on here, and also on www.boatdesign.net.

Gotchas would be cooling and connecting it to whatever you're going to power with it (pump / generator?).

To air cool it you'd need a fairly large radiator with a fan that could run constantly I think, possibly sitting in the top of an enclosure so it could draw cold air in from the bottom and exhaust out of the top. You might get enough flow from convection, but I'd think it would need fan assistance. Would you need the turbo? Some form of intercooling may be necessary if so. If you have a water supply (perhaps if you're using it as a pump) then marine heat exchangers would do the job.

The VW industrial engines have a special bellhousing which incorporates mounting lugs, plus a different flywheel. I've been looking at CVT flywheels as they have a splined drive bolted straight to the flywheel rather than having to muck about with a clutch.

Do you have Etka? That has details on the industrial engines.

:)
 

Hasenwerk

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1982 Cabriolet (BEW|VNT17|Stage4), 1989 VW TriStar Syncro soon-to-be CR TDI (CBEA), 2001 Ford Ranger Edge 4x4 (ALH|VNT17|R520|Stage4)
Hello, I am considering using and ALH for a stationary power unit, and was wondering if anyone could point me to a few threads they know of which might guide me in terms of necessary parts from the donor vehicle to get it running outside of a car on a stand? I figured that posting this in the conversions section would be more fruitful and made the most sense, but if there is a better place, could a mod please move it for me?

I did a few searches, but haven't really hit upon anything that I'd consider concise in terms of what is and isn't needed, but that could just be my searching talents are lacking. Any thoughts or suggestions as to which year/vehicle combo would be ideal are also appreciated! Also thinks to watch out for/gotchas as well.
I have manufactured a few harnesses for TDI power stations (hydraulic pumps, electricity generators etc) where only operating at a fixed "running" RPM / idle RPM was needed. The software for the ALH is quite flexible. At the press of a button (closing of a circuit) it can be made to go from idle to working speed.

As for parts you will need from the donor vehicle. Not all that much beside the engine, "N75" valve that controls the turbo, ECU and the two harnesses that come from the ECU to the Engine, and the MAP sensor. For a power station the accelerator pedal is entirely optional. The air mass sensor isn't needed nor is the EGR system. You can optionally connect a RPM gauge and water temperature gauges. These are off the shelf sort of items.

Deleting the AC and PS accessories is as simple as installing a shorter belt.

Interfacing the engine to the unit being driven and the accompanying mounts are the only real engineering challenges you will have.
 

alha

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Nov 22, 2014
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MN
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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
Thanks very much for the replies guys, they are both informative. Mikki, I just did a search on ETKA and found via wiki that it's an electronic VW parts catalog, and sadly, no I don't have access to it, but I bet that it would sure be a helpful resource. Is it a subscription based service, or open to everyone? Or just dealers? I will check out the marine versions for inspiration. I am actually in the process of designing a super wood splitter. It's going to have a 48" L 6" D cylinder, and the pump, sizing it to be able to cycle it in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time, is going to need to have at least 50hp, and 1800rpm is more than enough for speed. I plan on keeping it water cooled, will build an enclosure for the radiator with an electric fan.

Hasen, that sounds interesting, did you build it from scratch or just remove all the wires from the existing harness that weren't needed? I'll probably keep the RPM and temp gauges, and maybe oil pressure as well. I'm going to try and find one without A/C, to keep the accessory belt setup as simple as possible. Or, is it really that easy to just leave off the unneeded accessories and get a shorter belt? I haven't worked on them but looking at modern cars, it seems that if you pull things off, you will be missing pulleys and such to keep the belt aligned. I plan on looking at the above referenced marine engines for a way to make an output shaft and possibly a CV joint setup, or some other type of coupler, and a bell housing.

This is a somewhat longer term project, and have plenty of time to research the details. Thanks again for the replies, they are helpful!
 

NarfBLAST

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Ran our old 2006 Mazda 5 (2.3L 4cyl gas engine) with a 3000 Watt inverter strapped to the battery during a power outage. It ran the sump pumps during a nasty spring thaw. Sadly the VW was parked in the woods that year.

I thought about turning my ALH into a backup generator, but then I decided to put it back on the road as my daily driver.

Would love to see an ALH as part of a hydraulic power pack, but isn't that overkill? What are are using the log splitter on? Giant Redwoods?
 

alha

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Nov 22, 2014
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MN
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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
lol no, don't have anything of that size in this neck of the woods. I have the cyl already, as well as the beam, and am doing calculations as to the pump, but it's looking like the Eaton PVH098 I found would put out about 45gpm at 1800, at 3000psi, so that should be more than adequate. If the online calculator I've found can be believed, the cycle time should be about 13.5 seconds for a full stroke, and I don't think I'll need the full stroke very often, but at least I'll have it if I do. But as you say, it will be overkill, though I'm pretty sure that it will never get stuck in any piece of wood, regardless how gnarly it is. Definitely falls under the 'last wood splitter I'll ever need' category. Now to start looking for the valving for the controls, as I expect much if not all will require 1" lines..
 

CRSMP5

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NE OHIO
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idi
rover 300 pump.. as long as fuel dry.. no electronics to get wet... smart person would mod a benz shut off to work on it so vacume shuts it down only requiring a batt to start it
 

ketchupshirt88

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waupaca, WI
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2005 Passat daily, a bunch of others in the graveyard out back...
i was thinking MTDI too but he still needs to control the VNT somehow because he wants to use an ALH...

unless you already have the ALH donor car, i would get an AHU because it can be run as a stand alone with just a different pump, even with an IDI pump since you don't actually have to drive it... or even simpler would be a 1.6D/1.6TD because they can be run stand alone as-is.

i was thinking of doing something similar with my dads logsplitter by mating it to my spare AHU but with no turbo and a mechanical injection pump. probably only make 50hp but the splitter does fine now coupled to a 35hp farmall tractor's PTO.

as for shut off, one wire to the solenoid on the pump or zero wires and manually actuate an anti-shudder valve to shut it off. just a battery to start it.
 

Ski in NC

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Wilmington, NC USA
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2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
The governor in the car ecu is not great for running hyd pumps or gennies. There you want a constant rpm governor, not the road load typ in the car software. You want one that keeps a constant rpm and varies the fuel to match the load. Like on cruise control, which may work.
 

Mikkijayne

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Devon, UK
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Audi S8
Does an AHU / ALH etc even need a turbo to make 50hp? The SDI engines can do almost 70hp, although they have to turn quite quickly to do it so perhaps the turbo would be necessary to meet the rpm target. Still, a small wastegate turbo could surely do that?
 

vtpsd

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Vermont
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03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
seems that if you only need 50hp and want to run mtdi, you could probably just run the vnt15 from the ALH in a locked vane position. Perhaps make a simple slide adjuster with a lockbolt to be able to adjust the positions of the vane and lock them there. Or set it halfway between open and closed and forget about it.
 

TDIMeister

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Can't help you on the actual fabrication side, but I can offer you some calculations that with an unmodified ALH you can get about 40 kW mechanical brake power at 1800 RPM (just shy of that figure in kWe, depending on generator/power electronics efficiencies; I'll round it to 35 kWe) with fuel consumption of under 200 g/kWh. This means assuming $2.40/gal fuel price, your burn rate will be about 2.5 gal/hr or $6/hr or 17 cents per kWeh.

Running the engine at higher RPM (e.g. 2400 RPM) for higher output increases the cost per kWh because the BSFC goes up.

Edit: I'd leave the engine essentially original, electronic VE pump and all. I'm sure a competent ECU tuner can do a custom constant RPM governor file coupled to the load from the electric motor with a glow, startup and rev stabilization routine. The VW Industrial stationary engines can't be much different.
 
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CRSMP5

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idi
does not need a turbo for this... i know of a non turbo tdi m running round usa getting over 60mpg loaded with crap... says it still has more power then a 1.6td.. and he is using a roddo gear box too so high rpm vs low...

now.. if vnt used.. a choke cable to the actuator would allow you to set the boost.. but you do not want boost imo as boost = lesser fuel economy.. you dont want it to soot.. want it nice clean and mixture set for no soot..

running my tdi-m over night for heat when camping.. uses no real fuel... the only reason id use a tdi for this is till under 30f no glow plugs needed.. a idi.. needs them when cranking to light up on a 70f day.. well imo properly.. takes too many revolutions with out...

imo tdi also runs cooler cause no swirl chamber in the head...
 

TDIMeister

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The benefits of no turbo advanced by some here are not supported by data or by engineering fundamentals. If you want to get 40 kW out of a 1.9 non-turbo Diesel, you'll need to rev it up to near its rated power RPM. Yes, you can do it, but BSFC (and cents/kWh) skyrockets; you need a special high-speed generator (most are 1200, 1800 and 2400 RPM) and the engine lasts shorter being operated predominantly at higher revs.

It's really very simple: You want to operate the engine at the lowest BSFC for the required rated power.



 
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alha

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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
Great conversation guys, it is enlightening. I took a closer look at the chart I used to estimate my HP needs, http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydraulic-pumps-horsepower-d_1464.html and if I am going to try and pull around 45-50 GPM out of that pump, it looks like I am actually going to be needing somewhere in the neighborhood of 90-100hp... and this is at only 1800-2000 rpms.

I looked at the rating on the VW diesel wiki page, and it lists the ALH as 66 kilowatts (90 PS; 89 bhp) @ 3,750 rpm; 210 newton metres (155 lbf·ft) @ 1,900 rpm — AGR, AHH, ALE, ALH. It was an interesting read going down the list comparing engines, and seeing as I need most of my power at below the optimal RPM range for this application, I came across one which would work out peachy for me, it is the CFCA -132 kilowatts (179 PS; 177 bhp) @ 4,000 rpm; 400 newton metres (295 lbf·ft) @ 1,500–2,000 rpm — CFCA Volkswagen Transporter (T5) GP biturbo. I like this one because the peak torque is between 1500-2000 RPM's. It's listed under 2.0 R4 16v TDI CR 81-176kW

Sadly, it only comes in the Transporter, and I don't believe they are available here in the US. Just for fun I did a search on Ebay, and found a couple in Europe. Of course, they were priced between $2500-3500, before shipping, just for the motor, not the accessories I'd need to make it run... So, no, don't think I will be using one of those.

I guess I don't know if the ALH is going to be a strong enough engine to run this at the relatively low RPM this pump operates at. I believe I need to worry about HP, not Torque, correct? Because the max HP is at nearly 4000 RPM, and peak torque is 1900, which is still pretty high. I may need to re-think this motor after all, as I do not believe this pump will be happy operating at the RPMs anywhere near where 90 HP arrives.

Oh, and one last quick note, this is going on a hydraulic pump, not a genset head. Just wanted to avoid any confusion in the thread.
 

CRSMP5

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NE OHIO
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idi
why a m set up set for no electronics wins... a batt to start thats it.. and id have no idea how figuring out what a rover pumped vw "chart" would exist.. but its out the box bolt on has more power then a tdi e does stock...

if you know a engine dyno in se ohio.. i have a longblock/rover pump on my shelf... id take to get it dynoed for ya... so you can form a "chart"
 

Mikkijayne

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Sounds like you need to do some tuning then :) Bigger nozzles and probably a CR170 turbo like a BV43 or GTC1549VZ. I believe both of those are usually dialled back a bit by the tuners at low speed to avoid shredding the clutch so could be perfect for your application.
 

alha

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Nov 22, 2014
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MN
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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
Will those bring the horsepower up down there? I usually relate turbo to high RPM power, and a supercharger to low(erish) end power. Still quite new to the VW diesel scene, so I want to get as much good information as I can before I start buying parts, because I only want to buy the big, expensive things once.
 

Mikkijayne

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Those turbos are from the 174hp 2.0 from the A4 and A6 which makes 280lb/ft at 1750-2500 rpm. Doing the sums that gives 95hp @ 1800rpm, 106hp @ 2000rpm. If you have fuel and mapping to suit the ALH should manage that without any trouble. Most of the TDIs can easily cope with double the rated output :D
 

Hasenwerk

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1982 Cabriolet (BEW|VNT17|Stage4), 1989 VW TriStar Syncro soon-to-be CR TDI (CBEA), 2001 Ford Ranger Edge 4x4 (ALH|VNT17|R520|Stage4)
I would think, if you are running at a constant speed, torque is more important. HP is the rate of change in torque. 1800 to 2200 RPM is what Diesels love best as this is their toque peak.

The ALH should work fine for your application - the Axx engines are all very similar to the ALH just being European engines than North America. It is very simple to make more power with these engines by changing nozzles and going for a larger turbo with the software to support these. 130 to 140hp / 250 to 300 ft.lbs is quite easy to produce.

I've done harness / ECU work for a few hydraulic pumps - there was never a complaint about the power output of the TDI engine. Mind you 50 GPM (at what pressure?) is getting up there . . .
 

alha

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Nov 22, 2014
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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
...I've done harness / ECU work for a few hydraulic pumps - there was never a complaint about the power output of the TDI engine. Mind you 50 GPM (at what pressure?) is getting up there . . .
Pump and cylinder are both rated at 3000psi, and yeah, I believe the max GPM is 45-48 on this pump. That's a lot of fluid, but again it's a 48" cylinder, with a 3" rod, 6" in diameter. One thing I will definitely have to take into consideration is cooling the fluid.

I expect that I will need 1" lines, so I will need to consult with some experts before I delve into this that part of it, obviously it will be on the return side, but I don't plan on having a Huge tank, so cooling is going to be a must, especially if splitting in the summertime when ambient temps are well above freezing. So much to consider, but the good thing is that I am under no time restraints, so I can do this at my own pace, and do it right the first time.
 

TDIMeister

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I should ask the question - other than the "cool" factor of doing something yourself, have you considered why you are doing this? Is your utility charging you so much more than ~17 cents/kWh of electricity?

And I'm a little confused now - are you doing this ultimately to generate electricity or to drive a pump? If the latter, coupling the engine output directly to a pump is far better, cheaper and more efficient than going through the intermediate step of producing electricity first.
 

NarfBLAST

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Waterdown, Ontario, Canada
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2001 Golf 5MT
Many readers seem to be confused by the thread title "stationary power". They immediately jump to electricity, ignoring the consistent description of a hydraulic power plant by the original poster. I am even guilty of sharing my "electric power" story, before trying to steer back to hydraulic, sorry.

TDIMeister, it is within your moderator powers to change the title of this thread to read "Stand alone ALH TDI for stationary hydraulic power" for clarity's sake?
 

alha

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'04 Jetta Wagon 5 spd & '05 Jetta Wagon 5 spd
Yes, thank you, that would be a much better title, I apologize for the confusion. If they could change it, I'd appreciate it. You could even remove the word stationary, I just added that to indicate that it isn't in a car any longer, but technically it will be mobile, as it is going to be towable. The current design spec I have in mind separates that power unit from the splitter, so that is kind of the thought process of the stationary comment.
 
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mogly

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May 27, 2003
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Sarnia, ON, Canada
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MKIV TDI + B5.5V AVF/01E
I have ask why? Do you heat with a wood boiler where large diameter wood can be stuffed into it?

The reason I ask is that I do heat with an outdoor boiler. I try to keep as much hard wood as I can in stock. My splitter is powered by a 10hp Honda. I don't recall what diameter my cylinder is but I'll guess 4" min. 24" opening. I split ash, oak, maple. I get a lot of wood dropped here by local arborists mostly for free- so you can imagine the size of the some of the wood if those guys don't want to deal with the wood. 36"+ . Some pretty big "coins". My "little" splitter has no issue.
 

vandermic07

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01 Golf 5 spd, 03 Jetta Wagon
looks like this splitter will split 4' logs, have an 8 sec stroke time (48 gpm /6 gal volume at full stroke), need 30 gal of hydro oil to keep cool, and have 42 ton max splitting capacity? This thing is going to be a monster and way overpowered for the tonnage IMHO. the Tractor Supply 35 ton splitters have a 277cc motor on them and have a 14 sec stroke http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/countyline-35-ton-log-splitter. I would get a larger cylinder if you think you need more force, get a smaller motor and keep cylinder you have, or (my choice) buy a TC 35 ton splitter. I might be wrong in my calculations this is still crazy. I do think it is cool to use a TDI for hydraulic power but a log splitter?
 

Ski in NC

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Location
Wilmington, NC USA
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2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
If engine hp is not enough for the pump at desired rpm, get a lower displacement pump to match engine. Better yet, get a variable displacement pump. With variable displacement, if a log is hard to split, swash plate backs off stroke, it slows down and has LOTS of force. Then on easy logs and retracting, it is FAST.
 
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