Southbend Clutch Kit Issues - Another set of 3rd gear synchros

ATR

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My stage 3 tune killed the DMF in this kit in just over 1000 miles. Seems like a DMF is not a viable option for stage 3 or even high powered stage 2 tunes.
Well dang!

Guess SMF is the only option for stage 3.
 

UberVW_TDI

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Thanks for the links. I didn't realize Sachs made a performance clutch with DMF. Might be a viable option for tuned owners if this is something we can get stateside.

Is this the one you were looking at? I only see the clutch and cover, no flywheel:
http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sac...-04/2009/SRE-Performance-Clutch-Kit::118.html

I was looking at the same darkside developments sachs performance clutch (Sachs SRE) with DMF.

The DMF is the weak link for sure. But SMFs are known to cause there own issues (chatter, gear lash, and some transmission failures). Maybe stage2 is the real world daily driver power limit?
 

amstel78

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I was looking at the same darkside developments sachs performance clutch (Sachs SRE) with DMF.

The DMF is the weak link for sure. But SMFs are known to cause there own issues (chatter, gear lash, and some transmission failures). Maybe stage2 is the real world daily driver power limit?
Maybe it is the limit. All I can tell you is that with my stage II, I can repeatedly get the DMF to chatter depending on how I drive the car. I'm pretty sure my flywheel's lifespan gets shorter and shorter if I drive in such a way to induce the chatter.

Maybe I should have taken Les' advice and slightly de-tuned my tune. :confused:

Either way, it's cheaper and easier to replace the DMF than to repair or replace synchros.
 

EvilEvo

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My stage 3 tune killed the DMF in this kit in just over 1000 miles. Seems like a DMF is not a viable option for stage 3 or even high powered stage 2 tunes.
How? I've been stage 3 for almost 10k miles now and I'm still on stock clutch. Mine shudders, but I just drive around it. You don't need to floor it in 6th gear at 60mph. Just down shift to get the rpm above 2k and you have no issues. That's where all the tq is anyway.

And it only shudders in 4th gear and above.
 

1963gp

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please folks run a fluid dampener don't let the car idle excessively. stop *****ing and and run 28 lbs of boost like me and enjoy towing road racing daily driving and save your syncros. trust me I know I have torn my 02q down 4 times to replace syncros. coming up on 20 k miles no issues. it works what can I say. also run the special gear oil cocktail. keeping my south bed stage two clutch my syncros and my tune.
 

EvilEvo

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please folks run a fluid dampener don't let the car idle excessively. stop *****ing and and run 28 lbs of boost like me and enjoy towing road racing daily driving and save your syncros. trust me I know I have torn my 02q down 4 times to replace syncros. coming up on 20 k miles no issues. it works what can I say. also run the special gear oil cocktail. keeping my south bed stage two clutch my syncros and my tune.
What if mine spikes 30psi sometimes, does that make me cooler? :cool:
 

1963gp

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LOL don't know about the cool factor but the fast factor make me smile.:)
What if mine spikes 30psi sometimes, does that make me cooler? :cool:
 

UberVW_TDI

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The Sachs SRE Performance clutch kit w/ DMF for the 02Q is rated for 360 ft-lbs w/ organic friction disk (390 ft lbs w/ sintered iron friction disk)...according to the darkside developments website.
Malone stage 3 quotes 350 ft-lbs (@ crank).
I'd vote for the organic disk setup for better drivability.

Stage 2 is at 333 ft-lbs.
 
Last edited:

uninc

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I have had similar issues with destroying my syncros. I can tear down an 02Q blind folded. I am running the south bend stage 2 clutch a Malone stage 3 tune. Not until I put a fluid dampener on it did the problem go away. Chatter was reduced 80 percent and is much smoother. The key is the fluid damper and no unnecessary idling. My car is tracked and tows a tow dolly. Bottom line your sycros will live with a fluid dampener. I also run one qt of light weight shock proof gear oil with the with redline gear oil. The other option is a common rail 170 DMF from Europe. that still would not hold a stage 3 tune.
What weight Redline oil are you using with the shockproof oil?
 

turbocharged798

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What the #ell are you guys doing to your transmissions that you blow the syncros out so quickly?

When I tore down my 250K mile 5 speed, the syncros were still mint condition, and that trans spent good chunk of its life on a SMF. In fact, early 97-99 TDIs came with a SMF from the factory.

So either its something to due with the 6 speed, the CR engine, or something but killing syncros on a regular basis is NOT normal.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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02Qs have different syncros than 02J or 02M transmissions. They're proving to be more fragile, especially when used with an SMF. Big power and track days don't help. I know one customer who retrofitted an 02M in his MKVI so he'd have the stronger syncros.
 

jason_

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I honestly think being lazy with the clutch, just enough to let it drag on the flywheel, is carrying shock to input shaft, in turn synchros, as you try and engage a/next gear.

Fully separating the disk from the pressure plate and flywheel, before putting pressure on synchros, the gearbox could care less what's bolted to it, while shifting......

Just my thought.
 

kooyajerms

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What the #ell are you guys doing to your transmissions that you blow the syncros out so quickly?

When I tore down my 250K mile 5 speed, the syncros were still mint condition, and that trans spent good chunk of its life on a SMF. In fact, early 97-99 TDIs came with a SMF from the factory.

So either its something to due with the 6 speed, the CR engine, or something but killing syncros on a regular basis is NOT normal.
Everything does not revolve around the mk4. Like most of your posts comparing anything and everything. But but but But mk4 ;)
 

amstel78

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I honestly think being lazy with the clutch, just enough to let it drag on the flywheel, is carrying shock to input shaft, in turn synchros, as you try and engage a/next gear.

Fully separating the disk from the pressure plate and flywheel, before putting pressure on synchros, the gearbox could care less what's bolted to it, while shifting......

Just my thought.
You don't think the additional vibrations transferred from an SMF are fatiguing the synchros to failure?


Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
 

elitegunslinger

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You don't think the additional vibrations transferred from an SMF are fatiguing the synchros to failure?


Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
During excessive idle it's already been proven that the synchros will be eaten due to additional vibrations caused by a lightened SMF. There is one person who I don't know if they're on the forum but they would sleep in their vehicle and leave it running in the winter. This alone shortened the life of the synchros dramatically. I don't believe they had a fluidampr though.

It seems the only options are to:
1. Get a fluidampr
2. Get an SMF kit (possibly with heavier flywheel to reduce engine pulse vibration)
3. Trans Fluid Cocktail stated prior in the thread

Once I've got the funds maybe I'll guinea pig this but for now I need to focus on maintenance items for my 120k coming up in 3 months or so.
 

amstel78

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During excessive idle it's already been proven that the synchros will be eaten due to additional vibrations caused by a lightened SMF. There is one person who I don't know if they're on the forum but they would sleep in their vehicle and leave it running in the winter. This alone shortened the life of the synchros dramatically. I don't believe they had a fluidampr though.

It seems the only options are to:
1. Get a fluidampr
2. Get an SMF kit (possibly with heavier flywheel to reduce engine pulse vibration)
3. Trans Fluid Cocktail stated prior in the thread

Once I've got the funds maybe I'll guinea pig this but for now I need to focus on maintenance items for my 120k coming up in 3 months or so.
That's what I figured, and from what I've read/heard, the synchros in our gearboxes aren't as robust as previous iterations.

I'm planning on buying a CR170 turbo kit from Les this month, but won't install until I can determine the best course of action for the tranny. I'll probably go the Southbend route but use a Fluidampr as well. My Golf is still a daily driver and can't have it out of service for any lengthy period of time.
 

jason_

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You don't think the additional vibrations transferred from an SMF are fatiguing the synchros to failure?


Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
I don't, no. Once you're in gear, and not bumping pressure against synchros, either dmf or smf, or bolted directly to the crank with no flywheel, it wouldn't matter for vibration reasons.

If you're fully releasing the disk before even touching shifter, there shouldn't be any vibrations transferred to input shaft reaching the synchros. Same applies when releasing clutch, don't begin to release it until shifter has fully moved fork ring into gear.
 

turbocharged798

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Everything does not revolve around the mk4. Like most of your posts comparing anything and everything. But but but But mk4 ;)
Not sure what you are trying to say but a transmission is a transmission regardless of the engine and body its in.

I am gathering that VW cheapened out the syncros on the newer 6 speeds which make then not last.
 

1963gp

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the newer syncos in the 02q are carbon steel except 5th and 6th which are stil brass. they are strong but brittle. They break due to the being rattled to death by the solid flywheel. the brass sycros are soft and forgiving. Again the fluid dampener solved this issue for me.
 

UberVW_TDI

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1963gp,
I might not be understanding your setup correctly...

You're saying that installing a fluidampr pully in place of the harmonic dampener on the front of the engine solved the SMF clatter and gear lash issue?
 

saucer

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What do you guys think about a SMF for a stock DD though? My OEM clutch is already slipping @60k so I'm gonna need a replacement soon, but am not a hobbyist with $2k to drop on my car for a new DMF.

I've seen this guy pop up recently and welcome any advice, thanks!
 

1963gp

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2012 golf TDI tech edition modified and converted to GTD, 2003TDI Jetta Smith p/u conversion, 1987 Syncro Westy TDI conversion, 1967 Westy TDI AHU. 1995 EuroCamper TDI Syncro, 2014 Cayanne Diesel TDI, 2004 V10 TDI Touareg.
Yes you are correct. Reduced clatter by 80% also limit unnecessary idling. also noticed that shifting is smoother and less notchy. as far as I am concerned the proof is I the pudding. I tow cars with my Golf Road race it, auto cross it and daily drive it. If any one needs Syncros replaced in their 02q give me a call. before installing a solid flywheel invest in a fluid dampener.
1963gp,
I might not be understanding your setup correctly...

You're saying that installing a fluidampr pully in place of the harmonic dampener on the front of the engine solved the SMF clatter and gear lash issue?
 

jason_

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8m interested in the damper myself. 2nd week of April I'm hoping to jerk gearbox out and tackle this. I need a definite answer on synchro longevity in regards to smf/damper and dmf, both with a stsge2 tune and mild foot.
 

1963gp

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the 1.8t dampener works some machine a little off the back side I did not and my belt is wearing fine. no light foot here drive it every day and beat the hell out of it on the street and at the track. you can get one ready to bolt on here. http://www.inaengineering.com/ I don't know how many time I have to repeat myself to say it really works with a solid flywheel.
 

ATR

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the 1.8t dampener works some machine a little off the back side I did not and my belt is wearing fine. no light foot here drive it every day and beat the hell out of it on the street and at the track. you can get one ready to bolt on here. http://www.inaengineering.com/ I don't know how many time I have to repeat myself to say it really works with a solid flywheel.
Here's the thread that INA started not too long ago... I saw the last few pages they were talking about the fluidamper for the common rails almost exclusively...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=404646
 
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