Sound Off on Current Diesel Price

[pknopp]

Not correct, I called my local fuel distributor a couple weeks ago and they said I could purchase as much LSD as I wanted...as long as I bought at least 10K gal to start with. It would be an off-road, dyed fuel though.

We have a couple stations around here that claim to sell it. I admit that I haven't checked into the claims but some say it's just diesel dyed red and priced without the road tax as it's for off road use only.

 

[rotarykid]

We have a couple stations around here that claim to sell it. I admit that I haven't checked into the claims but some say it's just diesel dyed red and priced without the road tax as it's for off road use only.

Off road, farm and marine D1 & D2 can still be LSD, Marine can still be HSD.

 

[TornadoRed]

Off road, farm and marine D1 & D2 can still be LSD, Marine can still be HSD.

Maybe. But the crude oil costs just as much if used to make low-sulfur diesel as it does to make ultra-low-sulfur diesel. So if the LSD was/is so much cheaper, then the refineries would be selling it for below the cost of the raw materials... in which case it would make more sense just to pull the plug on the whole operation.

What is more likely is that there is some small quantity of ULSD that becomes contaminated when it follows some other product through the pipelines, so to be on the safe side it is not sold as ULSD. It could have less than 15 parts per million of sulfur, but there are heavy penalties in case it doesn't, so they would rather not take any chances.

 

[kjclow]

Overall though, the fact that some refineries are still producing LSD could help explaint the higher cost of ULSD. Those refineries that have converted are producing small quantities of ULSD compared to the overall D2 production. Any LSD produced is either sold as off road, and therefore no road taxes, or exported. That leaves us with limited supply and high demand, thus raising the price of the USLD at the pump.

 

[TornadoRed]

Overall though, the fact that some refineries are still producing LSD could help explaint the higher cost of ULSD. Those refineries that have converted are producing small quantities of ULSD compared to the overall D2 production. Any LSD produced is either sold as off road, and therefore no road taxes, or exported. That leaves us with limited supply and high demand, thus raising the price of the USLD at the pump.

No. PADD I, which is the northeastern US, produces and consumes nearly all the distillate fuels with more than 15 ppm; this is for the home heating market.

Nationally, about 5 million barrels a day of distillate fuels are produced, and slightly over 4 million barrels is under 15 ppm of sulfur.

PADD I produces about 700,000 barrels a day of LSD or HSD, and PADD III (the Gulf Coast) produces around 250,000 barrels a day of this over-15 ppm distillate fuel. Some of this PADD III fuel is probably piped to the Northeast, and some used locally in industrial or marine applications.

According to the WSJ, on their Cash Commodities page, on Friday #2 heating oil in NY Harbor sold for $2.89/gallon; 500-ppm low sulfur diesel for $2.915 a gallon; and 15-ppm ultra-low sulfur diesel for $2.9325/gallon. This price spread tends to narrow in the winter, because of demand for heating oil might divert some diesel into the HO market. But even in the spring and summer the spread between HO and ULSD is only 5-7 cents/gallon.

 

[Tom Servo]

Sounding off on current local prices:

Mobile, AL: $3.599 @ GASCO (Airport & Azalea)
Mobile, AL: $3.579 cash price at @ Dodge's Chicken CITGO (Schillinger & Airport)
Foley, AL: $3.739 @ Dodge's Chicken (S McKenzie & Lawson)
Loxley, AL: $3.839 @ RaceWay (N Hickory & Flowerwood)
Loxley, AL: $3.769 B8 cash price @ Love's (E Flying K & N Hickory)

The Love's price really surprises me, because it was $3.919 just a day or two ago. I also didn't know they offered B8 at most truck stops now, some with B10. That's good to know.

 

[lovemybug]

I94 and Hwy 20, just west of Racine, the truckstops have D2 for $3.85. BP truckstop at I94 and Hwy 142, just north of Kenosha, has D2 for $3.89. Pump #17 there is the small car nozzled pump. Careful which pump you pull up to because it's located next to the off-road diesel pump. Otherwise most stations have D2 for $3.95-3.99. RUG is running at about $3.19-3.25.

 

[kjclow]

Has anyone else noticed that more stations are back to pricing differences between cash and credit?

 

[Tom Servo]

Has anyone else noticed that more stations are back to pricing differences between cash and credit?

Many do that here already. I've only seen one new one, in Mobile, but several have widened their price gaps between cash and credit. For a while it was just 3 to 5 cents, now it's usually 6-10 cents.

The store in Mobile is the Dodge's Fried Chicken, Taxes and Gas store has rebranded with CITGO fuels. They got all new pumps (diesel at each one just like before!) and added premium gas. But with the new pumps came price differences for cash and credit. Gas is +3¢ with credit, diesel is +6¢ with credit. Dunno why we get hit with the higher fee but I had to pay it when I discovered they don't discount debit as cash price.

 

[need4speed]

Has anyone else noticed that more stations are back to pricing differences between cash and credit?

Yes - another atrocity - the credit card companies used to be able to set the fees that vendors would pay per transaction. Because there are basically TWO networks, Visa and MasterCard, that control about 70% of the market, they basically dictate this fee at a whim.

(a whim driven by: we want as much money as we can get away with)

They had it set at something like 25 cents and were going to make it 35 or 45, I forget which. Because of the agreement with the card companies, vendors can't push this charge on to customers. Vendors have to eat the cost: which isn't so bad, because the convenience for consumers to have ready access to cash causes them to spend more readily. 45 cents on for a $2 pack of gum, however, is kind of crazy. Congress stepped in, and put a cap on the fee.

So then, back around September or so, there was a big hullabaloo about how the banks decided they were going to start charging people $15 per month for privilege of using an ATM card with their checking account. I don't know if you agree that this is a good value for the money or not, but for someone who earns minimum wage, that's over two hours of labor, isn't it? I guess it wasn't very popular, so the banks backed-off. So the market does really have SOME power still. As long as they have to plant this fee in front of your face, and can't hide it.

For whatever reason - maybe there's an exception for gas stations, or maybe it's because of the new law, but gas stations are suddenly allowed to charge different rates for credit again. (I can only speculate on this part - the only thing I do know is about how the law recently capped the fees).

Debit and Credit cards are pretty convenient and all, but when you realize that there's this hidden charge of 25 cents per transaction, it sort of makes you think differently about how you use them. It's really an arbitrary charge - I'm certain that it does not cost the bank that much to flip a bit in their computers. But it's a cost that all vendors bear - and it's built into the prices of all of the products we purchase at retail (whether we spend with cash or not).

It's like a tax, (in that, it sucks money out of our economy) - except that the banks do not build us roads, or schools, or pay policemen's salaries nor do they even pay taxes on their profit anymore.

If you spend only with cash, you're paying that fee anyway - for the convenience of other people who lack the mental capacity to plan when they'll need cash for the coming week, and therefore, use only debit cards, even when they need a pack of gum.

I am certain that if vendors charged an extra 25-cents per transaction at the cash register for ATM purchases, most of us would, for most everyday purchases, ditch our plastic.

The case where a debit/credit card purchase kind of makes sense against a 25 cent transaction fee: buying a tank of gas, something that's really kind of a necessity of life, you don't really want to be carrying around that much cash, and compared to the total cost, 25 cents is reasonable. (unless it's a nickel more per gallon, and you're buying more than 5 gallons, you're now getting raped).

I almost welcome the ability to "get a discount" for paying cash - and I wish that I could get the same for everything I buy.

- - - -

I've noted a sharp decline in diesel, and was able to fill up today for $4.09. I think it was $4.29 just a couple weeks ago?

 

[kjclow]

Most of the stations around here that have started charging again are around 5 cents per gallon. Sometimes they are a penny or two less per gallon for cash compared to the station across the street, but that still works out to 3 cents per gallons or about 40 cents per tank. What else would that buy today? One cigerate or half of a candy bar???

 

[Tom Servo]

Yes - another atrocity - the credit card companies used to be able to set the fees that vendors would pay per transaction. Because there are basically TWO networks, Visa and MasterCard, that control about 70% of the market, they basically dictate this fee at a whim.

The way merchants talk, though, going with the competitors — Discover and AMEX — would be an even worse choice. I've had countless people say they don't take one or both because of higher network transaction fees.

Places that take neither don't get my business, generally, because those are my two primary cards.

Now someone please explain why, historically, diesel has been priced less for cash at so many stations near me, but not gas. And why that CITGO I mentioned a few posts back feels justified charging 3 cents less for cash on gas, but 6 cents less on diesel. That makes NO sense at all.

Diesel is slightly lower here, $3.699-3.799, but one station went from $3.749 to $4.089 for some reason. I hope it's an error that will be quickly corrected.

 

[TornadoRed]

Now someone please explain why, historically, diesel has been priced less for cash at so many stations near me, but not gas. And why that CITGO I mentioned a few posts back feels justified charging 3 cents less for cash on gas, but 6 cents less on diesel. That makes NO sense at all.

If someone is going to buy up to 200 gallons of fuel, station managers look for ways to get that guy to buy from them. Think of all the amenities available at truck stops, many of them available only to truckers.

Cash discounts are sort of like loyalty programs.

 

[psd1]

According to the WSJ, on their Cash Commodities page, on Friday #2 heating oil in NY Harbor sold for $2.89/gallon; 500-ppm low sulfur diesel for $2.915 a gallon; and 15-ppm ultra-low sulfur diesel for $2.9325/gallon. This price spread tends to narrow in the winter, because of demand for heating oil might divert some diesel into the HO market. But even in the spring and summer the spread between HO and ULSD is only 5-7 cents/gallon.

Weren't you just saying that LSD isnt available anymore? Sure wish I could get 300 gallons, undyed delivered to my house for $3.15ish a gallon. I would like to see how well it performs compared to ULSD.

 

[kjclow]

From my expereince with my beetle, you should see about a 10 - 15% boost in fe with the LSD. That's about what I lost when I had to switch to USLD.

 

[psd1]

From my expereince with my beetle, you should see about a 10 - 15% boost in fe with the LSD. That's about what I lost when I had to switch to USLD.

Plus the additional wear and tear associated with less lubricity...Gotta love the friggin EPA. I was overseas for the LSD-ULSD switchover, so I have no base of reference besides inputs from operators who suffered through it.

 

[Tom Servo]

If someone is going to buy up to 200 gallons of fuel, station managers look for ways to get that guy to buy from them. Think of all the amenities available at truck stops, many of them available only to truckers.
Cash discounts are sort of like loyalty programs.

I was under the impression most truckers carried credit or corporate fuel cards. I've been a regular at truck stops (for obvious reasons) and have never once seen a trucker pay with cash, except to buy incidentals like coffee.

From my expereince with my beetle, you should see about a 10 - 15% boost in fe with the LSD. That's about what I lost when I had to switch to USLD.

I remember the switchover and can honestly say I saw zero change in fuel economy during the switchover. If there was a difference, it was negligible.

Diesel, for what it's worth, definitely seems to be dropping locally. Several more stations are at $3.699 today, and one Chevron in Daphne, Alabama hit $3.629, the low point for all of my county as far as I know.

 

[psd1]

I remember the switchover and can honestly say I saw zero change in fuel economy during the switchover. If there was a difference, it was negligible.

I was active on several diesel boards (Mainly 6.0 Ford boards) during the switchover and i definately remember folks complaining about loss of economy. The switchover happened over a pretty big period of time. I would love to see documented numbers from the same vehicle for known LSD numbers against know ULSD numbers...anyone out there? I have heard from several fleet operators that there was a definite loss.

Diesel here just dropped to $3.89 RUG is now $3.36.

 

[jimnms]

Last week in Jackson, MS on the Pilot truck stop's billboard I pass by RUG was $2.99 and diesel $3.81. Yesterday RUG down to $2.89 and diesel $3.79. Diesel is slightly cheaper and RUG is slightly more expensive at home in Vicksburg.

 

[TornadoRed]

WTI crude, Brent crude, and RBOB gasoline futures are all about the same as a week ago.

Heating oil futures are about 8 cents/gallon lower than a week ago.

So maybe not much change at the pump, or maybe diesel down a few cents in some areas. Locally I've noticed a few stations charging around $3.85/gallon, where 7-10 days ago $3.99 was the cheapest I saw.

A few miles outside the Twin Cities Metro area, along I-94 toward St Cloud and Fargo, there are stations charging $3.79-3.81 for diesel. But lots of metro stations are still selling for $4.09-4.19, or not.

 

[kjclow]

I would love to see documented numbers from the same vehicle for known LSD numbers against know ULSD numbers...anyone out there? I have heard from several fleet operators that there was a definite loss.

I have the numbers in my milage book for the beetle but would need to get them into a spreed sheet to see what it really says. I am going by memory, which may be faulty, and by miles per tank. It will take a few days but what else do I have to do?

finish rebuilding the closet, putting everything back in, clean house, put up the tree, hang outside lights, bake, take Golf in for a front end repaint..... Oh almost forgot, refloor the foyer. I guess Fred's trumps all of those!

 

[psd1]

I have the numbers in my milage book for the beetle but would need to get them into a spreed sheet to see what it really says. I am going by memory, which may be faulty, and by miles per tank. It will take a few days but what else do I have to do?

finish rebuilding the closet, putting everything back in, clean house, put up the tree, hang outside lights, bake, take Golf in for a front end repaint..... Oh almost forgot, refloor the foyer. I guess Fred's trumps all of those!

It is a disease for sure...

Thats why I like using fuelly, it only takes a few seconds and the data should be there forever.

 

[TornadoRed]

I have the numbers in my milage book for the beetle but would need to get them into a spreed sheet to see what it really says. I am going by memory, which may be faulty, and by miles per tank. It will take a few days but what else do I have to do?

All my fuel records are in an Excel spreadsheet, from Day 1 with this Golf and dating back to 1987 with my previous car.

The Golf was past the initial break-in phase before the ULSD mandate, and during that period my driving pattern was very stable: about 1000-1200 miles a week, on the same streets, roads and highways. My charts show absolutely no change in fuel economy.

There were some modifications, added along the way: two different custom tunes, bigger nozzles, bigger turbo, etc. But the running average was about 40.2 mpg in late 2003 and still around 40.2 mpg five years later, when my driving pattern changed -- I moved to a different state and stopped driving nearly so much.

So while others may have anecdotal evidence that ULSD caused a drop in fuel mileage, I have some excellent records that show no drop in fuel mileage.

Perhaps someone can point to a difference in the BTU content of LSD and ULSD, to substantiate a claim that one has more energy content than the other. But taking the sulfur out of diesel shouldn't change the energy content.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

The stations I go to charge the same price for cash or credit for diesel.

 

[crashtested]

$3.99 in Blaine, WA last night.

 

[Tom Servo]

Gas is up about a nickel across the board here, and diesel is down about a nickel.

Small miracles.

 

[psd1]

All my fuel records are in an Excel spreadsheet, from Day 1 with this Golf and dating back to 1987 with my previous car.

The Golf was past the initial break-in phase before the ULSD mandate, and during that period my driving pattern was very stable: about 1000-1200 miles a week, on the same streets, roads and highways. My charts show absolutely no change in fuel economy.

There were some modifications, added along the way: two different custom tunes, bigger nozzles, bigger turbo, etc. But the running average was about 40.2 mpg in late 2003 and still around 40.2 mpg five years later, when my driving pattern changed -- I moved to a different state and stopped driving nearly so much.

So while others may have anecdotal evidence that ULSD caused a drop in fuel mileage, I have some excellent records that show no drop in fuel mileage.

Perhaps someone can point to a difference in the BTU content of LSD and ULSD, to substantiate a claim that one has more energy content than the other. But taking the sulfur out of diesel shouldn't change the energy content.

Your findings are much different that Rotarykids evidence on the last page of this thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=200694&page=42 odd how the findings could be so different. Maybe a new thread should be started?

 

[EJtdeye]

Paid $3.89/Gallon at my local Shell station with my Ralph's discount. Lowest I've paid in a long,long time.

 

[SilverGhost]

All my fuel records are in an Excel spreadsheet, from Day 1 with this Golf and dating back to 1987 with my previous car.
The Golf was past the initial break-in phase before the ULSD mandate, and during that period my driving pattern was very stable: about 1000-1200 miles a week, on the same streets, roads and highways. My charts show absolutely no change in fuel economy.
There were some modifications, added along the way: two different custom tunes, bigger nozzles, bigger turbo, etc. But the running average was about 40.2 mpg in late 2003 and still around 40.2 mpg five years later, when my driving pattern changed -- I moved to a different state and stopped driving nearly so much.
So while others may have anecdotal evidence that ULSD caused a drop in fuel mileage, I have some excellent records that show no drop in fuel mileage.
Perhaps someone can point to a difference in the BTU content of LSD and ULSD, to substantiate a claim that one has more energy content than the other. But taking the sulfur out of diesel shouldn't change the energy content.

Right, but you were in CA at the time? They adopted a version of ULSD long before the rest of the country. I remember tractors and Toyota pickup having fuel leaks and them mechanics complaining about the fuel change (early, mid 90's).

I personally haven't seen a significant change in mileage I could attribute to ULSD. I moved back to CA briefly in 2005 then to Montana and Florida. The Mileage seems to change more with how well the engine is broken in and the quality of fuel than the change from LSD to ULSD.

Jason

 

[DK]

$3.819/gallon last night in Westminster.