Sound Off on Current Diesel Price

TornadoRed

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There are many fine (and necessary) qualities about capitalism. This is not one of them. Since before the time of McCarthy, in this country, we've been so happy to "call a spade a spade" when that spade is *red*. But when it's simple extortion, men in $10,000 silk suits with $100,000 PhD's in Economics are willing to jump through the most convoluted logical hoops to try to explain how it's some kind of "invisible hand" at work, and not thuggery.

You've lost me here. I do not know how Senator McCarthy's investigations of Soviet agents infiltrating US government agencies at the highest levels has anything to do with the price of gasoline when a hurricane is approaching.

And if someone decides to jack up the price of fuel, it is not a Ph.D with a silk suit -- it's the owner or the manager of that station, who might have a degree with a community college (or maybe not), and who wears shoes with steel toes and not wing tips. Some of the most foolish people in the world are people with doctorate degrees, especially degrees from Ivy League universities.
 

need4speed

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No - I'm talking about how we can't have an even, open debate in this country, without it descending into name-calling and red-baiting. The most innocuous civil measures are called "socialism". It's a fairly widely accepted dogma in this nation now, that "all taxation is theft", and that even Social Security is called a "Ponzi Scheme". (this is solely a US phenomenon)

It is not even managers or owners of individual stations that set the prices in most cases. In most cases (with chains) - the price is dictated by the franchise, and they will generally set prices higher where average income is higher, where sales are higher due to more convenient access to freeways, etc. For independently owned stations, thats the exception.

But when we, as a nation, discuss or complain about unjustified high fuel prices, and this goes out on the TV talk shows for debate, it is certainly the guys from the Heritage Foundation and the Club for Growth (et al) sitting there in front of the camera telling us that the almighty "invisible hand" will take care of things, and not to worry, and please, oh, please, can they have another $4 billion dollar tax cut so they can complete their yacht collection?
 

TornadoRed

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I was not talking about the stations owned and operated by the major companies like Shell and BP -- they do not care about earning any extra $1/gallon profit on 25 or 50 thousand gallons of fuel. But that kind of money would be an incentive for the owner of an independent station.

But more than that, I am wondering why the government even plays a role in this? If one grocery store wants to charge $1 more for a gallon of milk, who cares? If one pharmacy wants to charge 20% more for prescription drugs, who cares? If one auto dealership wants to add a $2000 "marketing adjustment" to the price of every new car, who cares? So why can't a fuel station be able to change prices without government interference?
 

need4speed

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Well, we either believe government has a function, or we don't.

None of those examples, milk, prescription drugs, cars, can be taken out of the context of their broader manufacturing and supply cycle. You could have ten thousand independent grocery stores all desiring to set prices for milk independently, and it doesn't mean a damn if there is a single dairy corporation that collects from factory farms and distributes milk at fixed wholesale prices, (and also controls the supply of other food goods such that, they can dictate retail prices, or shut an independent retailer out of the business completely).

This is not the case anywhere for milk, of course. But I use it as extreme example - because it HAS been the actual case for petroleum, with Standard oil, 100 years ago. And Standard may have been broken up into smaller companies, but some of those have re-combined, and in some regions, they command these kinds of influential powers on the marketplace.

Anyplace along the supply-chain of ANY feedstock material in ANY industry, if there is a provider that controls that kind of market dominance, there is the opportunity for these kinds of abuses.

There is also THIS to consider:
The corporate charter, is a legal "permission slip" given to companies, to operate their business, without the tax and legal liabilities that individual human beings have. The corporate charter is something that a Government GIVES to the corporation. (certainly, there are filing fees, etc.) The government plays a role in every corporation from day one. No business can exist as a corporation without "Government interference".

For proponents of "less government interference", (and "strict constitutional constructionalists, eh?) I'd suggest we revoke and drop corporate charters FIRST, and expose corporations to the same legal and tax environment that the rest of us are exposed to, before we talk about all the "horrible intrusive regulations" we impose on them. (and by "we", I mean, voters, consumers, taxpayers, "we the people", ie. the government).

Many would consider this to be an extreme ideological position, and impractical. And they'd be right. :)

Why does the government even play a role in this? Because the alternative is impractical and unworkable. The free-market libertarian paradise? Where the government doesn't get involved or do anything? Go see how that's working out, in places like, Somalia, Zimbabwe, (etc.)
 

rockwood

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No - I'm talking about how we can't have an even, open debate in this country, without it descending into name-calling and red-baiting. The most innocuous civil measures are called "socialism". It's a fairly widely accepted dogma in this nation now, that "all taxation is theft", and that even Social Security is called a "Ponzi Scheme". (this is solely a US phenomenon)

It is not even managers or owners of individual stations that set the prices in most cases. In most cases (with chains) - the price is dictated by the franchise, and they will generally set prices higher where average income is higher, where sales are higher due to more convenient access to freeways, etc. For independently owned stations, thats the exception.

But when we, as a nation, discuss or complain about unjustified high fuel prices, and this goes out on the TV talk shows for debate, it is certainly the guys from the Heritage Foundation and the Club for Growth (et al) sitting there in front of the camera telling us that the almighty "invisible hand" will take care of things, and not to worry, and please, oh, please, can they have another $4 billion dollar tax cut so they can complete their yacht collection?
I prefer Pyramid Scheme:

A pyramid scheme is a non-stustainable business model that involves promising participants payment, services or ideals, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme or training them to take part, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_%28economics%29service to the public. Pyramid schemes are a form of fraud.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme#cite_note-0

Replace "Pyramid" with Social Security... :D

Well, we either believe government has a function, or we don't.

None of those examples, milk, prescription drugs, cars, can be taken out of the context of their broader manufacturing and supply cycle. You could have ten thousand independent grocery stores all desiring to set prices for milk independently, and it doesn't mean a damn if there is a single dairy corporation that collects from factory farms and distributes milk at fixed wholesale prices, (and also controls the supply of other food goods such that, they can dictate retail prices, or shut an independent retailer out of the business completely).

This is not the case anywhere for milk, of course. But I use it as extreme example - because it HAS been the actual case for petroleum, with Standard oil, 100 years ago. And Standard may have been broken up into smaller companies, but some of those have re-combined, and in some regions, they command these kinds of influential powers on the marketplace.

Anyplace along the supply-chain of ANY feedstock material in ANY industry, if there is a provider that controls that kind of market dominance, there is the opportunity for these kinds of abuses.

There is also THIS to consider:
The corporate charter, is a legal "permission slip" given to companies, to operate their business, without the tax and legal liabilities that individual human beings have. The corporate charter is something that a Government GIVES to the corporation. (certainly, there are filing fees, etc.) The government plays a role in every corporation from day one. No business can exist as a corporation without "Government interference".

For proponents of "less government interference", (and "strict constitutional constructionalists, eh?) I'd suggest we revoke and drop corporate charters FIRST, and expose corporations to the same legal and tax environment that the rest of us are exposed to, before we talk about all the "horrible intrusive regulations" we impose on them. (and by "we", I mean, voters, consumers, taxpayers, "we the people", ie. the government).

Many would consider this to be an extreme ideological position, and impractical. And they'd be right. :)

Why does the government even play a role in this? Because the alternative is impractical and unworkable. The free-market libertarian paradise? Where the government doesn't get involved or do anything? Go see how that's working out, in places like, Somalia, Zimbabwe, (etc.)
Personally, the less the government involves itself with the economy, the better. I don't want more regulations, thank you.

In other news, $3.99 a gallon here, cheaper than PUG. w00t! :D
 

Tom Servo

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Well, how about that? Isn't that something. Diesel actually fell at a few stations here the other day. We now run $3.699 at two stations in town.
 

TornadoRed

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West Texas Intermediate crude and Brent crude have both been in trading ranges for 6-8 weeks or more. October WTI is close to $90/barrel, at the top of the $83-$90 range; and Brent is about $115, at the top of the $105-to-$115 range.

October RBOB regular gasoline is in the middle of its $2.70-$2.90 trading range, currently at about $2.79. Heating oil is just above the middle of its $2.93-$3.09 trading range, at about $3.03/gallon.

What we are seeing are the normal seasonal patterns, with decreased demand for gasoline and higher usage of distillate fuels. But also there are secular trends -- the trucking industry is using less fuel, but the agricultural sector is using more. Natural gas is still cheap, so utilities are burning natural gas and not fuel oil.

Then there are macroeconomic factors, with the fear of a double-dip recession or in the best-case scenario just a continuation of 0%-1% growth which feels like a recession.

As for supply factors, even though stocks of crude oil and products are lower than last year, there seem to be enough of everything. And with interest rates so low, it is relatively cheap for bulls to start putting oil into storage if they become inclined to do so. The end of fighting in Libya is also a good sign; but because of damage to oil facilities, capacity may not return to 100% for 12-18 months.
 

Mainely Diesel

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$3.95-$4.05 is average at most stations here in midcoast Maine for past couple of weeks, lowest I've seen recently is $3.89 at one station so I filled up there. :)

With crude futures near 12 month lows, I think we will see lower prices coming soon but they won't last long. :(
 

TornadoRed

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With crude futures near 12 month lows, I think we will see lower prices coming soon but they won't last long. :(
Crude prices have been in a trading range for six or seven weeks, and are now near the top of that range. If we were going to see lower prices at the pumps, it would have happened at least five weeks ago.

The next price move for diesel could be higher. Not much, maybe just a few cents/gallon.
 

Tom Servo

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Well, shoot. No sooner did I post yesterday about two stations being $3.699, now today the Tom Thumb dropped to $3.629!
 

ssamalin

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We need government regulations back

http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/energy-holdings-WTI-Crude-Oil.pdf

This is the oil speculation by the Goldman Sachs and etc at a level of our GDP. Now I'm going to hear about no it's the free market and supply and demand or it's government regulations. Government regulation is what protects us from the "free markets" like the speculation above, we need the government regulations to stop the speculation that drives up prices. The people who cry about government regulations being in the way are the Goldmans who want to rig the market and jack up prices. Don't fall for it anymore.
 

TornadoRed

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http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/energy-holdings-WTI-Crude-Oil.pdf
This is the oil speculation by the Goldman Sachs and etc at a level of our GDP. Now I'm going to hear about no it's the free market and supply and demand or it's government regulations. Government regulation is what protects us from the "free markets" like the speculation above, we need the government regulations to stop the speculation that drives up prices. The people who cry about government regulations being in the way are the Goldmans who want to rig the market and jack up prices. Don't fall for it anymore.
Do you have any other sources than Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, a Socialist who caucuses with the Democrats?
 

kjclow

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Paid $3.56 yesterday for D2 in Tega Cay, SC. Paid $3.20 for rug today in Rock Hill
 

ssamalin

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http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/energy-holdings-WTI-Crude-Oil.pdf
This is the oil speculation by the Goldman Sachs and etc at a level of our GDP. Now I'm going to hear about no it's the free market and supply and demand or it's government regulations. Government regulation is what protects us from the "free markets" like the speculation above, we need the government regulations to stop the speculation that drives up prices. The people who cry about government regulations being in the way are the Goldmans who want to rig the market and jack up prices. Don't fall for it anymore.
http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/energy-holdings-WTI-Crude-Oil.pdf

This list was compiled by the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) Right wingers will lie to you to try to confuse you and hide the facts about what this data is. These speculators rig the market and only government regulation can stop them. There can be no free market, no capitalism without government regulation. Also if we raise the taxes of the corporations and rich people doing this speculation they wouldn't be able to do it. We also have to stop paying back their loses like we did in 2008 from the Fed.
 
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need4speed

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Still $4.19. If the fighting in Libya affects oil prices, I think there was a little (very costly to taxpayers) US govt intervention there. Had we just stepped aside and let the chips fall, then the rebels would have their heads on pikes, and Kadaffy'd still be stuffing his bank accounts with whatever he could hardball out of his Shell Oil handlers. But then again, maybe had Nixon let the chips fall, Kadaffy would have had HIS head on a pike back in 73. Would we be paying extortion prices to some other strongman? Or would there be several drillers in the region competing with each other for marketshare? Who knows? Thanks a lot tricky-Dick! (understand, Kadaffy was small potatoes compared to other players, but it's a good example of how we've gone a long way down a dirty road of standing-up strongmen, like the Shah of Iran, like Saddam Hussein, etc etc. . . we could talk about "free markets" if this was not our unfortunate history. ) We've already got natural disasters attached to the factors that cause price volatility, lending opportunity to speculators. But war is a man-made factor, and this was all avoidable had voices of reason prevailed. We apparently all like this because we keep voting for the same b*****ds.
 

Tom Servo

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Was over in Mobile today and topped up at the Dodge's on Schillinger for $3.649 because GasBuddy was indicating all the diesel prices were rising there. Turns out they were, but the Gasco on Airport actually dropped to $3.619! I came this '' close to driving down instead of Dodge's on a hunch but didn't. Dang.
 

kjclow

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Still $4.19. If the fighting in Libya affects oil prices, I think there was a little (very costly to taxpayers) US govt intervention there. Had we just stepped aside and let the chips fall, then the rebels would have their heads on pikes, and Kadaffy'd still be stuffing his bank accounts with whatever he could hardball out of his Shell Oil handlers. But then again, maybe had Nixon let the chips fall, Kadaffy would have had HIS head on a pike back in 73. Would we be paying extortion prices to some other strongman? Or would there be several drillers in the region competing with each other for marketshare? Who knows? Thanks a lot tricky-Dick! (understand, Kadaffy was small potatoes compared to other players, but it's a good example of how we've gone a long way down a dirty road of standing-up strongmen, like the Shah of Iran, like Saddam Hussein, etc etc. . . we could talk about "free markets" if this was not our unfortunate history. ) We've already got natural disasters attached to the factors that cause price volatility, lending opportunity to speculators. But war is a man-made factor, and this was all avoidable had voices of reason prevailed. We apparently all like this because we keep voting for the same b*****ds.
You forgot about our supplying the Taliban with weapons and training so they could kick the Russians out of Afganistan.

My campaign cry for this next year is, "Vote the b*****ds out!"
 

rockwood

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http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/energy-holdings-WTI-Crude-Oil.pdf

This list was compiled by the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) Right wingers will lie to you to try to confuse you and hide the facts about what this data is. These speculators rig the market and only government regulation can stop them. There can be no free market, no capitalism without government regulation. Also if we raise the taxes of the corporations and rich people doing this speculation they wouldn't be able to do it. We also have to stop paying back their loses like we did in 2008 from the Fed.
Government regulation is one of the major contributors to cost of production in the United States. Increased cost of production means it makes more sense to produce elsewhere. Producing elsewhere means our dollar is worth even less. A worthless dollar means your fuel, and other global commodities, cost more. Add in printing of money like its going out of style to compensate for a flagging economy, and you've got even higher fuel prices. Stop looking at fuel prices in terms of dollars, or adjust for the volatile value of the dollar of late.

BTW:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-19/opec-s-1t-cash-quiets-poor-on-longest-ever-100-oil.html

Talk about a socioeconomic mushroom cloud in the making...
 

DK

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Rockwood,
The Bloomberg article is an interesting read. The idea that certain Arab "governments" are now giving away money to their discontented masses
in order to fend off the "Arab Spring" in their little corner of the world
is logical. That it is possible because we are paying so heavily for our
oil is troubling.
 

kjclow

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Government regulation is one of the major contributors to cost of production in the United States. Increased cost of production means it makes more sense to produce elsewhere. Producing elsewhere means our dollar is worth even less. A worthless dollar means your fuel, and other global commodities, cost more. Add in printing of money like its going out of style to compensate for a flagging economy, and you've got even higher fuel prices. Stop looking at fuel prices in terms of dollars, or adjust for the volatile value of the dollar of late.
Actually, the weak dollar makes it more profitable to sell the refined product elsewhere. Unless things have changed in the last 2 years, the US still refines the majority of the worlds needs of propulsion fuels, i.e. gasoline and diesel. No other country currently has as much refining abilities as the US. This will change when/if the Middle East countries bring their new ultra modern refineries online. China is also working on new refineries but they are furthar from coming online than the Middle East.

The Middle East refinery construction has slowed due the the turmoil over there, but I also wonder if the weak dollar is making it less than ideal on a profit standpoint for those refineries to begin operation.
 

rockwood

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Actually, the weak dollar makes it more profitable to sell the refined product elsewhere. Unless things have changed in the last 2 years, the US still refines the majority of the worlds needs of propulsion fuels, i.e. gasoline and diesel. No other country currently has as much refining abilities as the US. This will change when/if the Middle East countries bring their new ultra modern refineries online. China is also working on new refineries but they are furthar from coming online than the Middle East.

The Middle East refinery construction has slowed due the the turmoil over there, but I also wonder if the weak dollar is making it less than ideal on a profit standpoint for those refineries to begin operation.
True, but that's just a small slice of the pie: you still have to buy the crude on a world market (even if its supplied domestically). Additionally, while it's more profitable to the oil company, it's also more painful to the consumer, since his/her wage didn't really change to reflect the weak dollar. I couldn't care less about an oil company's profits, I care about what I pay at the pump. A weak dollar means I can't make as many purchases, since I get paid with that dollar.
 

kjclow

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A weak dollar means I can't make as many purchases, since I get paid with that dollar.
If you look specifically at the price of fuel at the pump, I think that the value of the dollar would have a very minor impact on the increased price. Probably not much more than a few cents. I looked back through my mileage book on the 09 CR-V that we just traded off for the 2011 TDI Golf and saw that we paid about $1.50 two years ago for regular. Today, the price around here is $3.11. I know that the dollar is worth less than it was two years ago but not 50% less.
 
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