sound like a fuel pump issue?

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
I will push for a full replacement. I'm pretty sure they are still waiting on parts to come in.
 

Smaug

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Location
NH
TDI
2013 Passat SE with DSG and Sunroof
I wonder if the people who had double failures were fueling up at the same place? Or if they were using any additive?
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
It would be great if everyone could regularly update their submissions.
Knowing that someone put another 100k on their car post-replacement, while still fueling at the same places, would be a great comfort.
 

chimaera

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Location
Ireland
TDI
2012 Skoda Superb Combi CR170
A few of you have mentioned fuel lubricity in relation to this issue. The lubricity specification in ASTM D975 (the US spec for diesel) is below what Bosch recommend for the VE pumps, not to mind anything newer that might require a higher standard. Combine this with the fact that D975 is not enforceable (i.e. the fuel you buy at the pumps is not obliged to meet this standard) and that's at least part of the problem.

DFIE manufacturers probably should be taking account of this problem when designing fuel injections systems for the US market, but their line so far has always been that they want ASTM and the fuel industry to up their game.

(there are links around backing up what I've said here, but I haven't the time/energy to go looking for them right now)
Edit: found the main thread discussing the lubricity issue: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1931813&postcount=1
 
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740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
It would be great if everyone could regularly update their submissions.
Knowing that someone put another 100k on their car post-replacement, while still fueling at the same places, would be a great comfort.
person formaly known as dweisel might like to comment on that one
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
person formaly known as dweisel might like to comment on that one
The only thing I can say is. If I had it to do all over again I would fuel at a different station. When my wife's 09 Sedan had a hpfp failure we did switch to fueling at a Sunoco. Both 09's ran crappy on the Sunoco. Mainly rough idle. So,we switched back to our regular fueling station and both cars immediately smoothed out. Also began using hyperfuels bio and Stanadyne Lubricity Formula at about 11,500 miles on both 09's. Metal particles were present in the 09 JSW at a 15,000 filter check. It failed slightly after 21,000. The Sedan that had the failure at 11,000 showed a few metal particles at 20,000 filter change and again at 24,000 filter check. Both cars were traded for 2011 Jetta 2.5 gassers while the JSW was still at the dealership getting a complete fuel system replacement. I would love to own diesels again,but not until the hpfp problem is COMPLETELY resolved. A pump that will go 200,000+ miles is what I got out of my old diesels and is what I expect out of the new diesels. Maybe in 3 to 5 years this will all be worked out and I can get back into a tdi. Until then............dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
Just got a call from the service manager - they have been waiting on parts to come in, and might have my car done tomorrow but were wondering if Monday is OK. Seems another TDI has the same problem and they only have enough parts to do one of them.

The fuel tank is indeed being replaced, they are on national backorder.
Meanwhile, my rental Sentra gets 32 honest-to-goodness mpg.
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
7 days almost to the hour of failure. I stopped by to check on the car, and it had moved. Went around and saw a TDI Sportwagen being picked up. Chatted with the owner and yup, fuel pump. He had also seen this exact thread :)

Went in and was able to talk to the tech working on it, he's almost done with the job. Completely new fuel system: tank, lines, pumps, injectors. I didn't realize the timing belt comes off in this job but it makes sense. We'll see if they used a new belt (they should have at 28k miles, I think).

He said there are 3 pumps - transfer in the tank, intermediate, and high pressure. According to him, the theory is that the middle pump is letting loose.
He also said that this pump is no longer present on the 2012 models.
More food for discussion I guess. Meanwhile I should have my car back on Monday at the latest.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
He said there are 3 pumps - transfer in the tank, intermediate, and high pressure. According to him, the theory is that the middle pump is letting loose.
He also said that this pump is no longer present on the 2012 models.
More food for discussion I guess.
Woah! That's really something to chew on! I hope that they find out this is the case. Many larger fuel pumps have been failing for years (diesel trucks) due to failed supply pumps. My questions are:

1. Why aren't the European cars having the same problem with their intermediate pump? (Fuel or manufacturing?)
2. How difficult/expensive/productive would it be to update the '09-'11 common rails to the '12 fuel system?


Meanwhile I should have my car back on Monday at the latest.
Wishing you many trouble free miles!!!
 

ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
1. Why aren't the European cars having the same problem with their intermediate pump? (Fuel or manufacturing?)
I have one documented failure with a European pump. On an Australian 2008 Touareg if I remember correctly. And it wasn't a misfuel that I remember either.

2. How difficult/expensive/productive would it be to update the '09-'11 common rails to the '12 fuel system?
Wishing you many trouble free miles!!!
So far, all of the 2.0TDIs have had the same pump and general fueling system design. I don't think this is changing for 2012 Golfs/Jettas ("A6" platform). He may mean the 2012 Passat TDI.
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
He said there are 3 pumps - transfer in the tank, intermediate, and high pressure. According to him, the theory is that the middle pump is letting loose.
He also said that this pump is no longer present on the 2012 models.
More food for discussion I guess. Meanwhile I should have my car back on Monday at the latest.
I'm sure you'll push for clarification on this, as this is the first time I've seen that possibility mentioned in this forum. Isn't the fuel filter between the middle pump and the HPFP?

What say you, Gurus? Is this plausible, or should it be put to rest before yet another diversion/distraction is thrown into the mix?
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
The middle pump is after the fuel filter.
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
So he showed me the quick test they do to verify pump failure. In the diagram, number 7, the fuel metering valve is unscrewed (two screws) and they pull it and look inside. He showed me the inside of mine, it had about 1/8" to 1/4" of metal shavings at the bottom.

You would think #4 above (filter screen) would protect the pump from these large shavings if it were the #3 (aux pump) letting loose. Indeed, I asked him if it were that pump failing, why VW wouldn't just retrofit a check valve or filter after that pump. He didn't know but thought it had to do with the high pressure.

Anyway, the tech was super nice, I didn't get any sense of intentional CYA or shifting blame. If anything, the dealership has been exceptionally good through this whole thing, which is nice to see.
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
Two more odd things I'm now wondering about. I noticed whiteout marks on the cam pulley and timing belt. Precaution, or did he do a mark and pray?

Also, I asked when they do the belt swap if you need to lock the cam with a plate like on the ALH engine, and he said no, they made the design a bit simpler.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I'm sure you'll push for clarification on this, as this is the first time I've seen that possibility mentioned in this forum. Isn't the fuel filter between the middle pump and the HPFP?

What say you, Gurus? Is this plausible, or should it be put to rest before yet another diversion/distraction is thrown into the mix?
I checked out a 2012 Passat tdi,but didn't pop the hood. Seems unlikely that the aux boost pump would be eliminated as that is what keeps fuel feed to the hpfp.You wouuld need an in tank fuel sending unit that would push fuel through the fuel filter and maintain 62 to 73 psi. All the failed hpfps I've looked at the aux boost pumps ran fine and showed no signs of shedding metal which would have showed up at the fuel temp sensor screen which is located on the fuel supply line before the hpfp. Also if bad boost pumps were the cause of failing hpfps. I'd say VW would have a recall on boost pumps and not be going through all the fuel system replacements or done 3 revisions on the hpfp if it were a boost pump problem and not a hpfp problem.
 
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danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
To close out my thread, I got the car back fine. Zero cost to me, total downtime was 8 days. The dealer was great, about the only complaint I have is that it got towed in with 1/4 tank and they refilled me about 1/4 tank. Given the inconvenience I would have expected a full tank, but that's a minor quibble.

I will post my repair partslist in case it helps someone else.
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
This morning about 2 blocks from work, glow plug light flashed, car list power.
I could not believe it.
Limped into the office parking lot, pulled codes. P0087 again.
Only difference this time is the car restarted.

I'm having the car towed later today to Sunnyvale VW.
They advised techs may not be able to look at it today.
What's the quickest way to check for pump reimplosion?

I'm beyond pissed off.
 

El Dobro

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Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Pull off the top of the fuel canister and see if there's metal on top of the filter. There's also a valve on top of the HPFP that's held on with a coupe of Torx screws. You can also remove that and see if there's any debris sitting in there.
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
Yeah, me too.
Here's a list of what was replaced the first time around. Anything missing?
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
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None
Also, here's the prices for all of that from Impex (that was the easiest place for me to dump those P/Ns into):

 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
As a matter of fact, yes, only two tanks, both purchased at the same Amoco fuel station I always use. It's the same station that my local dealer fills their cars at.
One curious note - fuel issue at 1/4 tank, same as the first time. I'm not sure if this is just coincidence or not.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Yes, that is a complete list of ALL parts for a complete fuel system replacement. Nothing missing. Keep us up dated on what happens next.

Yeah, me too.
Here's a list of what was replaced the first time around. Anything missing?
 
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danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
Dropped the car off, back in a Nissan Sentra (snicker). We'll see what they say on Monday.
 

danix

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2000
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
By the way, here's the codes I pulled. As usual, the dealer wouldn't even look at my printout.

1 Fault Found:
000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure: Too Low
P0087 - 000 - -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 46942 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2017.14.25
Time: 08:30:14

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1127 /min
Inj. Quantity: 32.7 mg/str
(no units): 5.0
Pressure: 800.0 bar
Pressure: 120.0 bar
Temperature: 49.5°C
Tank Cont.: 12.0 l

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0
 

GraniteRooster

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Location
Upper Valley NH
TDI
'12 JSW 6MT
Unbelieveable to have another back-to-back failure, on a full replacement no less!! Danix, Dweisel, how many other will need to suffer through this nonsense?

Good luck Danix - whatever you choose to do...
 
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