Some here were WRONG.... Buybacks on cars purchased post 6-28

[DanB36]

What exactly do you believe is unethical about it? And why?

I've been waiting for an answer to this question for a week, and still nothing. @gmcjetpilot, what do you think is unethical about buying cars for the express purpose of resale at a profit? And why do you believe it to be so?

 

[tpk]

I've been waiting for an answer to this question for a week, and still nothing. @gmcjetpilot, what do you think is unethical about buying cars for the express purpose of resale at a profit? And why do you believe it to be so?

I'm also curious. I didn't talk someone into doing something they didn't want to do. They offered the car for sale at a given price, we negotiated, came to what we both agreed was a fair price, and we exchanged money and goods. I didn't deceive anyone.

 

[bizzle]

In contract theory, game theory, and economics there exists a concept called asymmetrical information.

You'll see this mentioned on collector's shows and I've read at least one blog about this specific dieselgate opportunity where the financial blogger made a comment that, since he bought his from a dealership who was aware of the scandal and potential for a settlement, he had met his moral obligation in the trade.

Asymetetrical information leads to adverse selection and moral hazard, which are considered market failures.

What you guys have done violates a basic tenet of neo-classical economics. Whether you care or not is your prerogative, of course, but don't be confused by people objecting to it. It's not about having someone willing to sell something and someone willing to buy it--you could say the same thing about a kid who has an heirloom piece of jewelry but wants a doughnut so you give him $2 bucks for it and most people would conclude you ripped him off.

 

[tpk]

Fair enough. But that works both ways...

Let's say that the person I purchased my second car from wanted to get rid of it because it had an issue, that while not a major problem now, would be an expensive repair in the near future. The seller did not share this information with the buyer (me). I think it would be fair to say that the asymmetrical information for the TDI buyback is public knowledge and the only reason it is asymmetrical is because the seller is somehow not aware. The asymmetrical information about the mechanical issue is not public, and withheld by the seller.

Does the seller have an obligation to disclose, in principle and practice? I understand that "caveat emptor" means buyer needs to perform their due diligence. Why wouldn't this principle also apply to the seller?

 

[bizzle]

You're talking about the legal obligation of a seller to disclose vs. a buyer's legal obligation to conduct due diligence. The issue being raised by those calling this unethical is not a legal concept, but rather a ethical/moral one.

Many people recognize that corner cash-out services are predatory, yet they remain legal.

I've seen some people claim they feel they were doing a service for someone who needed money now. If it was true that those people believed they were doing a service, they'd simply inform the seller of the impending buyout and allow the seller to proceed with the sale if they didn't want to wait for the buyout. At least one person declined to take advantage of his neighbor selling an Audi and instead opted to inform him. He would be legally in the clear if he had bought it but I don't know anyone here who would be surprised to find he was then living next to a pissed off neighbor if he hadn't done what he did.

When I sell something on the secondhand market I do my best to explain all known issues so it doesn't come back to bite me in the butt. I have had people tell me they don't care about the issues because they really want the car (or the parts, whatever) and I've priced it accordingly. If I was selling things with hidden problems and I wasn't pricing it accordingly you can bet that people would be calling me a scammer and not to do business with me even though the law wouldn't have much to say about it.

 

[GSwag]

I took the gamble and bought another TDI after the 6-28 date when the buyback numbers were posted. Bought from a small independent used car dealer. Many here said cars bought after that date would not get bought back and or would only be allowed to have " The Fix " performed with no restitution money paid....

So this morning I registered both my 2013 jetta that I have owned since 2014, and the 2012 Jetta I bought on the 8th of this month, on the VWGOA website and..... YES the 2012 is eligible for buyback and all is good!

Now there was some truth to what some had said, It appears I will not get full restitution on the car. Only get half. Which is a bummer, and I do not know if I will be able to get more at a later date if no one comes forward as the " Eligible seller " or not. I would guess not, since I bought after 6-28.

Either way I am still happy. Paid $11,239.00 for the car with taxes and tags. Will have another 150-300$ in insurance and property taxes costs associated on the car by the time I turn it in, for a total of around $11,500 into the car and the projected buyback amount will be $16,893. This gives me a profit of $5,393 which is still great.

Plus, the projected miles the car will have at buyback time are higher than the miles I believe the car will have. It must assume I am still going to be driving the car, and estimated my miles at 70-75 thousand at buyback, but I will have somewhere around 69 thousand on it then, so I may get even more money...

And your point is? Oh that's right, you have none. Just wanted to come back and rub it in people's faces that they were wrong. Real classy

 

[turbobrick240]

Too much hassle for a few grand profit if you ask me. I wouldn't feel any ethical qualms buying these from a dealer. I wouldn't feel right buying from a private seller who is unaware of the coming buybacks and potential payout amount.

 

[DanB36]

In contract theory, game theory, and economics there exists a concept called asymmetrical information.

Does "asymmetrical information" have a more specialized and narrow meaning in those fields than its ordinary meaning (i.e., one party knows something the other party doesn't)? Because if it doesn't, you seem to be taking the position that it's unethical to enter into a business transaction if you know something material to the transaction that the other party does not (or may not) know. It would logically follow from that position that each party to a proposed transaction is ethically obligated to disclose any material information he knows to the other party. Are these the positions you're taking in considering the practice of TDI-flipping unethical?

Note that I'm phrasing this in terms of actual knowledge, not access to knowledge. Everyone has equal access to the information about the Dieselgate settlement--it's posted on the Internet, and the broad details have been in many publications, both general media and trade press, throughout the U.S. and abroad. This is not a matter of trading on insider information that the other party doesn't have access to.

* I made a very similar post last night, and it's now disappeared. If it's just a glitch, these things happen. If it's been deleted, I'd appreciate knowing why.

 

[Airpizz6]

Too much hassle for a few grand profit if you ask me. I wouldn't feel any ethical qualms buying these from a dealer. I wouldn't feel right buying from a private seller who is unaware of the coming buybacks and potential payout amount.

How could any VW owner today be unaware of the diesel scandal? Everyone of my neighbors is reasonably up on this, and none has TDIs. But they didn't understand that you could buy one now and make a profit. And are pissed with me for not telling them earlier.

 

[turbobrick240]

How could any VW owner today be unaware of the diesel scandal? Everyone of my neighbors is reasonably up on this, and none has TDIs. But they didn't understand that you could buy one now and make a profit. And are pissed with me for not telling them earlier.

People can be aware of the scandal without being aware of the buyback details. And yes, there are probably some owners totally unaware of the entire scandal. I can't offer much advice on your neighbors, other than rubbing your purchases in their face probably won't help the situation.

 

[speedrye]

Does "asymmetrical information" have a more specialized and narrow meaning in those fields than its ordinary meaning (i.e., one party knows something the other party doesn't)? Because if it doesn't, you seem to be taking the position that it's unethical to enter into a business transaction if you know something material to the transaction that the other party does not (or may not) know. It would logically follow from that position that each party to a proposed transaction is ethically obligated to disclose any material information he knows to the other party. Are these the positions you're taking in considering the practice of TDI-flipping unethical?

Note that I'm phrasing this in terms of actual knowledge, not access to knowledge. Everyone has equal access to the information about the Dieselgate settlement--it's posted on the Internet, and the broad details have been in many publications, both general media and trade press, throughout the U.S. and abroad. This is not a matter of trading on insider information that the other party doesn't have access to.

* I made a very similar post last night, and it's now disappeared. If it's just a glitch, these things happen. If it's been deleted, I'd appreciate knowing why.

Looks like a number of responses in this thread were deleted since last night since one of mine is missing as well. I thought the exact same thing about the insider trading though.

How could any VW owner today be unaware of the diesel scandal?

You're talking about a country where a third of the people couldn't tell you who the vice president is, while two thirds are unable to name a SINGLE Supreme Court justice...

 

[Airpizz6]

You're talking about a country where a third of the people couldn't tell you who the vice president is, while two thirds are unable to name a SINGLE Supreme Court justice...

I get your point, and you are probably being kind with your estimates. But you can go months without hearing Biden's name. Supreme Court justices. When one dies/retires or when the media is upset with a decision.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think TDI owners/lessees are not the norm. In this country one does not opt for a diesel on the spur of the moment. It took a lot of thought before making the move. There are outliers for sure, but I would have to think that most of them would pay close attention if the media was blasting VW and its not so 'clean diesels.

 

[FVWVWF]

How could any VW owner today be unaware of the diesel scandal? Everyone of my neighbors is reasonably up on this, and none has TDIs. But they didn't understand that you could buy one now and make a profit. And are pissed with me for not telling them earlier.

You'd be surprised. Stop an someone who looks like they dont use the internet on a regular basis (maybe some older folks) and ask them.

 

[Snufalufagus]

Between myself and friends all purchased vehicles were from dealer lots, not individuals. So do I feel guilty, not at all.

I did call on a local individual one for sale when this first started and spoke with an older woman about one. Gave me some sob story about a divorce etc. Said her son even had a 2013 diesel Passat. A day or so later she texted me to ask if I still wanted to come look at the car. I called her to inform her about the buyback. Told her it was worth a good bit more than she was asking if she sold it back to VW. Said I figured you would know about it since your son owns one too. She said her son told her she didn't qualify because she bought hers in Dec after the scandal broke. So yes some people are just stupid. I assured her I was right and that she should contact the dealership to get the info. Of course she wanted too much for there to be any real profit in it anyway

How about by convincing my wife and other family members to do it too?

 

[GyroRon]

And your point is? Oh that's right, you have none. Just wanted to come back and rub it in people's faces that they were wrong. Real classy

Being classy is my specialty

 

[07ktm250xc]

Hmm..thought about buying a few TDI's for profit..don't know why but it just felt wrong.

Even if I did..would have to tell the owner about the potential buyback before purchase.

Guess I'll never be rich

 

[grawk]

you wouldn't get rich buying all the tdis that are out there and taking the profit, let alone just a few

 

[Airpizz6]

If you folks want to be a Good Samaritan, scan the listings and if you find one way underpriced, send the dealer an email to let him know what he has. I've done it 5 times already.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

If you folks want to be a Good Samaritan, scan the listings and if you find one way underpriced, send the dealer an email to let him know what he has. I've done it 5 times already.

Why? 99% of these dealers would clip your bag off for $5 profit.

 

[DanB36]

I'm still waiting for @bizzle to clarify "asymmetrical information"...

 

[ChimneyJim]

Why? 99% of these dealers would clip your bag off for $5 profit.

Right?! Years ago I bought a 4WD pickup that the dealer had just "stolen" on trade for 2WD money. They listed it almost 3k below market. I had no problem not offering to pay more.

 

[Airpizz6]

Why? 99% of these dealers would clip your bag off for $5 profit.

But after 4 days, the dealer didn't seem to care, and the car still was on the market at a low price, I could buy it with a bit clearer conscience.

 

[Mark_J]

Called the VW phone number on the website and the date you purchased the car may not matter. I purchased a used 2014 Passat TDI SE in November from a dealer in Texas, but due to me being out of town and on Vacation I had them wait until January 2016 to deliver it to me in NW Wa. So I was not able to register it until I got the vehicle so my question to VW was do I go by the date I purchased the car, or by the title date, and she said to go by the Plate Issued Date" date. At least in Washington that is on the upper left corner of the registration. Didn't make a whole lot of difference but some. Just an FYI.

 

[Freeze Plug]

in your case the dates make no difference

 

[HBarlow]

I'm still waiting for @bizzle to clarify "asymmetrical information"...

Don't change your family's Christmas plans.

 

[DanB36]

Don't change your family's Christmas plans.

No, and I'm not holding my breath either. But I am genuinely curious if he means what it sounds like he means, or if there's some more specific meaning I'm missing.

 

[HBarlow]

No, and I'm not holding my breath either. But I am genuinely curious if he means what it sounds like he means, or if there's some more specific meaning I'm missing.

I think he threw that one up against the wall hoping it would stick and failed.

Don't think he'll be back for another attempt.

 

[purduecrew]

I'm still waiting for @bizzle to clarify "asymmetrical information"...

Haha he didn't read the last chapter of his economics book. I don't think he understands the answer. Karma already took care of that clown.

 

[purduecrew]

I think he threw that one up against the wall hoping it would stick and failed.

Don't think he'll be back for another attempt.

I don't think it has much to do with "criminals and children" as he would like to put it. It has to do with him being mad he missed the boat, so it makes him feel better. Good riddance.

 

[bizzle]

Called the VW phone number on the website and the date you purchased the car may not matter. I purchased a used 2014 Passat TDI SE in November from a dealer in Texas, but due to me being out of town and on Vacation I had them wait until January 2016 to deliver it to me in NW Wa. So I was not able to register it until I got the vehicle so my question to VW was do I go by the date I purchased the car, or by the title date, and she said to go by the Plate Issued Date" date. At least in Washington that is on the upper left corner of the registration. Didn't make a whole lot of difference but some. Just an FYI.

From what other people have said, it doesn't seem like the people answering that phone line have any special knowledge about the settlement. I think you should take their answers with a grain of salt.

Some people, however, have contacted the attorneys for clarification.