(SOLVED) How to tell what's wrong with a bad engine?

[Drewser]

Bought an 04 wagon with a bad engine and going to do an engine swap from my totaled sedan. Wagon is an insurance auction car with clean title as it was donated to a non-profit after the engine quit. I don't care about the existing bad engine but I'm a little curious as to why it failed, especially if related to the first bullet as that could have implications with the new engine. Engine will try and turn over but makes a terrible sound. Following are potential causes I can think of:

• Gas in the fuel tank (has a local high school parking sticker in the window...maybe related?)
• Bad timing belt (190k miles, so right in the zone for second belt)

Anything else? What are some other common major engine failures? I'm going to suck some fuel out to check for gas...that's my biggest concern as I don't want to ruin the engine I'm swapping in. Also going to see if the timing belt snapped. I'll scan for codes too...haven't done that, still have it on my trailer. Don't need to salvage the engine but seems like I should at least dig in a little, maybe show it some respect. I'm pretty sure I heard it thank me when I washed it on the trailer...

Answer in post 20

 

[Nero Morg]

Could be blown turbo, and caused a runaway.

 

[burn_your_money]

Pop the valve cover and see if any lifters are worn through

 

[Drewser]

Update: Pulled the timing belt cover, belt is intact and tight. Sucked some fuel straight from the fuel filter and looks and smells like diesel. Poured a little on the driveway and held a lighter up to it, nothing. So don't think that's contaminated with gas. Pulled hose off EGR and there's some soot but it's not like clogged or anything. Guess I need to pull the valve cover and see what's going on.

There is, however, no oil on the dipstick. Not sure if it's a symptom or cause...what's the first thing to go if it runs out of oil?

 

[Andyinchville1]

Can the engine be turned over with a wrench (don't try to start it with the starter) .... just to see if it is free?

I would try that before filling it with too much oil (worse case maybe some kid hot rodded it to the point of throwing a rod but not hard enough for the rod to come through the block?).

Obviously don't try to start if it is out or nearly out of oil.

Andrew

 

[Drewser]

Can the engine be turned over with a wrench (don't try to start it with the starter) .... just to see if it is free?

I would try that before filling it with too much oil (worse case maybe some kid hot rodded it to the point of throwing a rod but not hard enough for the rod to come through the block?).

Obviously don't try to start if it is out or nearly out of oil.

Andrew

It does try and turn over. I had my son helping me and told him to turn the key to first position and it was already there, so when he turned it it attempted to turn the engine for a few seconds and made a bad sound. Not the best troubleshooting procedure but at least we know!

 

[Drewser]

Well I figured out why they're was no oil! Oil pan is dented and cracked. Have a picture but I'm too lazy to post it somewhere else and link it.

Assuming engine died when it ran out of oil, how do I tell how bad the inside are? It's it possible I could put a new oil pan on, fill it up and start it?

 

[Genesis]

It's PROBABLY hosed. You might get lucky, but this is not an uncommon thing. If you shut it off IMMEDIATELY when it happens you can be ok, but if you actually run it with no oil pressure, well....

 

[Drewser]

It's PROBABLY hosed. You might get lucky, but this is not an uncommon thing. If you shut it off IMMEDIATELY when it happens you can be ok, but if you actually run it with no oil pressure, well....

Yeah, and there's no way of knowing how long they ran it as they donated it when it stopped and it ended up at auction. It does turn over. Can get a cheap oil pan for $28, so may be worth filling it with oil and trying it...

 

[jettawreck]

Run out of/low on oil and what's the first to go? Most often the cam bearings are toast. And the turbo. Then rod and main bearings. More of the moving parts to follow.

 

[Stupendous60]

Only one way, disassemble and inspect every part for wear/damage.
If you are concerned about the replacement engine, dont use critical parts from the damaged motor.

 

[turbocharged798]

Drop the oil pan, bet is pure carnage inside. I bought a 2 slo gasser from an auction that ran out of oil. Threw #4 rod and spit out every single bearing into the oil pan.

Unbelievable how many of these cars get killed from broken oil pans. Gassers and diesels alike.

 

[Genesis]

That very risk is why I have a Panzer plate on the one my daughter has now and it has saved the engine more than once -- the nice big gouges on the bottom attest to it. It seems to be a unique vulnerability on these cars in that I've never felt compelled to have that sort of protection on a car before or since (now on a truck that might go off-road it's a different story), and never holed an oil pan on any other vehicle either.

 

[PakProtector]

Nah, it is not unique to MK4 VW's... The 115-body Benz-es also had the same vulnerability. Likely the 123's too, but I sure saw less of them dead because of it.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[Drewser]

I ordered a new oil pain in the event I drop the cracked one and don't see any glaring issues. Went Chinese since I have very little hope of it working, but if I don't try then I'll always wonder. If there's no metal in the oil pan, going to stick the new pan on, put some oil in and see what happens.

 

[burn_your_money]

If you haven't pulled the pan yet, just put some of the cheapest oil in it you can find and see what happens. Since it's already making noises, it's probably a lost cause anyways. And if by chance the engine is good, 30 minutes run time for diagnostics with the wrong oil isn't going to cause any issues.

 

[Drewser]

If you haven't pulled the pan yet, just put some of the cheapest oil in it you can find and see what happens. Since it's already making noises, it's probably a lost cause anyways. And if by chance the engine is good, 30 minutes run time for diagnostics with the wrong oil isn't going to cause any issues.

It's a good idea to save money. Unfortunately, if I don't drop the pan and put a new one on the oil will all just drain out on the ground anyway. Maybe I can put the new pan on but still use cheaper oil until I know if it works. Though would cheap full syn be that much cheaper than some Rotella?

 

[Genesis]

Yeah I mean what's a bottle of Rotella T6? $20 at WalMart? And yeah, I know, that doesn't meet PD specs but if the engine's trashed it's better than paying up for the in-spec stuff eh, and if not it won't kill it to run it for a short while.

 

[burn_your_money]

Up here, Rotella T6 is usually $50. I forgot how cheap your oil is. I wouldn't even bother with synthetic for how short of time it will actually be in the engine. Of course, it all depends on how bad the crack is.

 

[Drewser]

I have the answer to how to tell what's wrong with a bad engine. As the crack was pretty big, I just dropped the oil pan this afternoon. There were several layers of RTV holding it on, as well as 4 missing bolts in the hideaway spots by the transmission. That was my first clue I was headed for disaster. This is what I found, including huge holes in both sides of the block:

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3

 

[KrashDH]

Oh boy. Everyone was invited to the oil pan party. Rod looked like he partied way too hard

 

[burn_your_money]

Well that was unexpected.

 

[ninedee_golf_tdi]

Scrape all that excess rtv out and put it together again. Probably will run just fine.

 

[snakeye]

Fwiw I broke an oil pan once, thought i was saved by my skid plate so I kept driving a few km. When I parked my car there was no oil left. Changed the oil pan and tried starting the car but it wouldn't even crank. After trying for a long time it finally started turning over slowly and eventually started. At first it smoked, until eventually everything went back to normal.

Had no zero oil related problems with it until the day I got into an accident and it was totaled probably 100k km later.

Worth a shot I say.

 

[KrashDH]

Changed the oil pan and tried starting the car but it wouldn't even crank. After trying for a long time it finally started turning over slowly and eventually started.

Worth a shot I say.

OP, I would not take this advice. I don't think they saw the photos.

 

[csstevej]

HOLY $HIT !!!!!!....Wow......Just wow......

 

[Stupendous60]

Crap!

 

[MukGyver]

If you give it enough "time" maybe it will all come back together on its own again. I think that's the way evolution works.

 

[KrashDH]

I think a few neodynium magnets and you'll be all set. Amazon has them cheap.

 

[Mongler98]

ahhhh... JB weld, 5 minute epoxy sticks. max, 10 minute job and your back and running for another 250K easy