Solar thread

turbobrick240

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The people buying homes in my area have noticed what is happening with heating oil/diesel/gasoline prices this year. Energy markets can be fickle.
 

Mongler98

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Correction... the people buying homes in your area and all over the country have either more money than brains or just more money. Buying a home reguardless or what it comes with is a huge pocket taker. Properly tax and home repairs heavily outright overtake any measly savings from energy needs.
Its helarious when somone says ... yes I spent 20 grand so I could save 30 grand over 10 years on a utility that costs more than most people's rent!
Dont want to spend $ fine... but stop this nonsence about saving when you are spending a enormous amount of $ becuase you can afford it.
Housing is at an all time high. Much more than fuel prices by ratio. It makes no sence to argue that buying a home with solar is because fuel or energy demands / prices are high.
Solar has its place. And that's for those who can afford to not have it but chose to invest in cleaner better tech so it can become cheap and better for those who cant. That's how all tech has worked since the dawn of fire and the wheel.....
 

turbobrick240

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That's just a convoluted word jumble. It's possible to finance a solar install such that the monthly payments are no greater than the previous electric bills. If you're not into home ownership, then yeah, you're better off buying some community solar generation or something like that.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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If you own a home you're going to pay property taxes and have to make repairs/replacements, regardless. And you're right, where I live, property taxes alone exceed what I would spend on utilities, even if I didn't have solar. Nothing I can do about that. But if I can save spending the $2,500 or so a year that electricity would cost, along with receiving $2K or so in carbon tax payments, that's $4,500/year I can put towards taxes or improvements. The system has long since reimbursed me the purchase and installation cost.

I like that I have no water/sewage bill (well and septic system) and (nearly) no electric bill at my house. My only utilitiy costs are oil heat (not nothing) and a tiny amount of propane I use for cooking and the clothes drier. And to run the generator when needed. Not having those expenses makes me less stressed about continuing to live here.
 

nwdiver

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Its helarious when somone says ... yes I spent 20 grand so I could save 30 grand over 10 years on a utility that costs more than most people's rent!
You realize that’s >$70k over 20 years as rates keep rising… right? Where’s the line that it makes sense in the ‘book of Mongler’? $15k to save $30k over 10 years? $10k? What about the financing? Would not paying $120/mo on a solar loan to save $150/mo make sense because numbers?
 

tikal

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If those are your electric rates it makes more sense that people aren't investing in solar. Here rates have been around $.23/kWh, going to $.25 or so this summer. So the payback is pretty significant.
Yes those were historical averages for 2020 and 2021.

Here is the 'bet' I did in August of 2021 when I decided to go solar for our house: the historical low electric rates in my area will no longer be statistically significant from 2022 and onward. On the other hand inflation will become statistically significant for the foreseeable future when it come to electrical rates and PV systems.
 

Mozambiquer

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What it comes down to it seems, is that in rural areas with low electricity, low taxes and low cost of living, going solar doesn't make as much sense as other areas where electricity prices are high, taxes are high and cost of living is high.

In my area in the middle of Missouri, I currently own my own house with no mortgage (though I'm working on buying a bigger place now) my property tax is $140 per year (yes, the full year is less than $150)
Electricity is $.07 per kWh. Cost of living is very low. For me and for others in my area, it may not make much sense to have a system installed due to the long time to reach a breaking even point. But for those in areas that have high cost of living and high energy costs, it makes much more sense for them.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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No one ever claimed that living in greater Boston is inexpensive. But it's home: I've basically lived within 10 miles of where I am now all my life, not counting a couple years away at college (transferred to Boston to finish) and a couple years in Los Angeles. I have a lot of family in LA and that region does make Boston look cheap by comparison. So I guess what is and isn't expensive depends on your frame of reference.

And although saving electric costs doesn't make much of a dent in my overall housing costs, I still like having solar.
 

nwdiver

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Electricity is $.07 per kWh.
Is that the ACTUAL cost of using a kWh? Here the cost is ~$0.08. PLUS a fuel fee of ~$0.02. PLUS RPS, franchise etc, etc. The ACTUAL cost is ~$0.13 per kWh.

Is your utility Xcel? Enjoy your low rates while they last….

 

Mozambiquer

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Is that the ACTUAL cost of using a kWh? Here the cost is ~$0.08. PLUS a fuel fee of ~$0.02. PLUS RPS, franchise etc, etc. The ACTUAL cost is ~$0.13 per kWh.

Is your utility Xcel? Enjoy your low rates while they last….

Actual cost is .07 per key and a $25 per month service fee.
I'm on a an electric cooperative, which makes a big difference.
 

tikal

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Definitively not "one size fits all". As long as you are comfortable with your electric rates being stable in the x amount of years ahead ...

... then 'be happy, don't worry"
 

tikal

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Before the solar panels were installed, I was averaging around 8 to 9 cents a kWh for many years.
Well, out of curiosity, I went back and check the ongoing retail rates for our area. Now you are looking at and average of 15 to 17 cents per kWh o_O

Telling you the truth this this the first time I check the rates since Fall 2021. Wow!!!

If these rates stay like this or go up in the future then my payback time accelerates and my decision in Summer of 2021 to go solar becomes more justified.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Yesterday I received an electric bill, which consisted of a $29.03 credit, despite using the A/C for several days and opening the pool in mid-May, so the filter pump ran full time for a while until the water stabilized. And yesterday I also received an SREC check for $822. This from a system that paid for itself years ago. Hard not to like that.

Saw a story on the local news that our utility's cost of wholesale power has tripled since the first of the year. They've only raised rates a little, so far, but there will be larger rate increases coming soon. Glad I have a buffer against that.
 

03TDICommuter

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My SCE bill just came in.
Total is $187.07 for 605 KWh, or $0.309/KWh. Inside the bill was also notice that SCE is looking to increase rates again by 6.8%

At $0.309/KWh, and my eGolf getting 4 miles per KWh (estimated, freeway is less, city is more), compared to my TDI NB, my eGolf is the equivalent of $3.63/gallon of diesel. Wish it had the 700 mile range my TDI gets.

Thinking of peeling some of the house off onto 'off grid' solar. I've got about 200 continuously running watts of power I could move off the grid.
 

pkhoury

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Medina, TX
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My SCE bill just came in.
Total is $187.07 for 605 KWh, or $0.309/KWh. Inside the bill was also notice that SCE is looking to increase rates again by 6.8%

At $0.309/KWh, and my eGolf getting 4 miles per KWh (estimated, freeway is less, city is more), compared to my TDI NB, my eGolf is the equivalent of $3.63/gallon of diesel. Wish it had the 700 mile range my TDI gets.

Thinking of peeling some of the house off onto 'off grid' solar. I've got about 200 continuously running watts of power I could move off the grid.
Holy crap. Tier 3, or is that in Tier 1 or 2? I last had SCE when they had a 4 Tier system, and unless I set my thermostat to 89, I was always in Tier 4 (for a tiny 2 bedroom duplex). Geez, 6.8%... I think our power here is still around $0.10/KWh.

Oh, and sorry I didn't drop by to visit you in Ventura County this last trip, but I'll be back in So Cal in November.
 

tikal

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... I think our power here is still around $0.10/KWh.
In our area (per powertochoose.org) you are looking at a minimum of around $0.16/kWh for a 12 month fixed rate.

I do not expect electric rates in Texas urban areas to go down in the future any longer.
 

pkhoury

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In our area (per powertochoose.org) you are looking at a minimum of around $0.16/kWh for a 12 month fixed rate.

I do not expect electric rates in Texas urban areas to go down in the future any longer.
I stand corrected:


Delivery/Distribution Charge$0.021358 per kWh

Energy Charge$0.067075 per kWh
(copied and pasted from the link below).
Our co-op's rates

Technically under 9 cents a KwH. Plus we get dividends each year, kinda like REI, since it's that kind of co-op.
 

pkhoury

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Actual cost is .07 per key and a $25 per month service fee.
I'm on a an electric cooperative, which makes a big difference.
Nice. That makes two of us. I'm starting to find that electric co-op's are like credit unions, in that you don't get screwed over like you would with a for-profit business model. Even our internet is provided by a co-op, though the electric co-op started offering fiber in select areas a few years ago.

What it comes down to it seems, is that in rural areas with low electricity, low taxes and low cost of living, going solar doesn't make as much sense as other areas where electricity prices are high, taxes are high and cost of living is high.

In my area in the middle of Missouri, I currently own my own house with no mortgage (though I'm working on buying a bigger place now) my property tax is $140 per year (yes, the full year is less than $150)
Electricity is $.07 per kWh. Cost of living is very low. For me and for others in my area, it may not make much sense to have a system installed due to the long time to reach a breaking even point. But for those in areas that have high cost of living and high energy costs, it makes much more sense for them.
This is exactly my problem here, and why it was a hard sell with someone from the co-op came to give a quote on solar a few years ago. 18 years for the ROI is a hard sell on a $30K plus system. I know others mentioned soliciting help installing panels. I only have one friend who's an hour away now (that moved from North Texas), and his schedule is busier than mine. Don't have any friends closer than 6 hours away to help me install solar, so I'd be on my own or have to have it professionally installed, which obviously bumps up the cost, because then, you have to find someone competant enough to do the work.
 

03TDICommuter

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Holy crap. Tier 3, or is that in Tier 1 or 2? I last had SCE when they had a 4 Tier system, and unless I set my thermostat to 89, I was always in Tier 4 (for a tiny 2 bedroom duplex). Geez, 6.8%... I think our power here is still around $0.10/KWh.

Oh, and sorry I didn't drop by to visit you in Ventura County this last trip, but I'll be back in So Cal in November.
I'm barely in Tier 2 ! It's ridiculous! I was talking with another ham guy and he mentioned he has a home based business and ended up getting a second meter for the one room for his business (he runs servers). Says commercial rate is $0.12/KWh

Hope to see you in Nov!
 

pkhoury

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Medina, TX
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I'm barely in Tier 2 ! It's ridiculous! I was talking with another ham guy and he mentioned he has a home based business and ended up getting a second meter for the one room for his business (he runs servers). Says commercial rate is $0.12/KWh

Hope to see you in Nov!
Holy $#it. Tier 2 is that much now? I just looked it up - Tier 3 is 45 cents per KWh. I don't even want to imagine what a Texas bill would be equivalent to in SCE terrority!

Ha, wish I'd known. I was running servers while in grad school, and that was most of my power cost, along with AC. In fact, I had to "downgrade" two of my servers *because* of the power cost (but here in Texas, I have half a rack full of stuff running).
 

03TDICommuter

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Holy $#it. Tier 2 is that much now? I just looked it up - Tier 3 is 45 cents per KWh. I don't even want to imagine what a Texas bill would be equivalent to in SCE terrority!
Here's just the cost for distribution:


Here's distribution again, plus other taxes and fees.


Here's generation


So for 605 KWh, the total for the bill was $187.07, or $0.3092/KWh
 

pkhoury

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IndigoBlueWagon

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I like the Wildfire charge: Utility asking you to help pay for a cost that they're at least in part responsible for incurring.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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With the California electricity rates, pv arrays must be getting installed there at a frenetic pace. That should ease the load on some of those old, overtaxed transmission lines and hopefully result in fewer line failures sparking wildfires.
 

03TDICommuter

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With the California electricity rates, pv arrays must be getting installed there at a frenetic pace. That should ease the load on some of those old, overtaxed transmission lines and hopefully result in fewer line failures sparking wildfires.
They're talking about implementing a 'connection' fee of $8.00 per KW system installed. Also doing away with net metering 2 and going to 3 which what little I know, is supposed to screw solar owners too.

In my neighborhood, very few have solar and I'm really not seeing folks getting it installed.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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All my wife's family lives in LA, and I'm always surprised at how unaffected they appear with living expenses there. They will comment, but that's about it. My brother-in-law has solar on his house, but he bought it that way. I asked him how big the system is, he didn't know. None of my other in-laws have solar, even though some of their homes appear to be ideally suited to an array. And it's not just electricity that's prohibitively expensive there, it seems to me. Taxes, water, even fuel for heat can be costly, because most homes are pretty poorly insulated.

I'm surprised I don't see more solar on homes when I visit, but given what I hear at family gatherings, not that surprised.
 

03TDICommuter

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All my wife's family lives in LA, and I'm always surprised at how unaffected they appear with living expenses there. They will comment, but that's about it.
This. I'm really surprised there isn't an uprising about the cost of energy. I hear fuel is expensive from taxes but also that they don't allow out of state trucking of fuel to come in. With gas prices what they are, I would have expected to see less cars on the freeway, and smaller ones, but my commute looks the same. Electric rates - I don't know how they get away with what they do. That said, I feel like I 'could' do something (raise public awareness), but not sure how.
 

turbobrick240

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It's pretty outrageous what the California utilities are trying to do to kneecap rooftop solar. I don't think they will be successful. With average installation rates of $2.70/watt, average 6 year payback period, and installations required on new construction, California should remain a leader in rooftop solar for quite some time, imo. And the tariff moratorium should have an immediate impact on utility scale installations. A little healthy competition between California and Texas to get the most solar electrons on the grid can only be a positive development.


 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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California should remain a leader in rooftop solar for quite some time, imo.
You would think, but I just don't see the interest among the people I know out there. I don't see it here in New England, either, but that makes a little more sense to me given that a lot of homes either don't have a good south facing roof for solar, or the one they do have is in the shade a lot of the time. Neither quantity of sun nor trees are usually an issue in SoCal. Nevertheless...

My b-i-l told me he pays $300/mo. for water. That would drive me nuts, given I've got a well and septic so no monthly bill at all.
 
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