So, you like running B100 in your PD huh?

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Here is what 140,000 miles of B100 use in a PD will do for you (and me).

Pretty cool (NOT!)







 
Last edited:

Farfromovin

Torque Addict
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
03 Golf 2dr- PD150 6m
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK. Knowing what I know, that looks EXPENSIVE! Seriously though, I'm sure there will be a lot of people soon to chime in here that proper biodiesel won't do this. From the pics, those injectors appear rusted which would indicate water. Sounds like home brew gone bad.

On my personal car, I prefer B5 as the best blend for lubricity purposes and power :)
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK. Knowing what I know, that looks EXPENSIVE! Seriously though, I'm sure there will be a lot of people soon to chime in here that proper biodiesel won't do this. From the pics, those injectors appear rusted which would indicate water. Sounds like home brew gone bad.

On my personal car, I prefer B5 as the best blend for lubricity purposes and power :)
Absolutely B5 and I would even say B10, but this B100 is a REAL PAIN in the A$$$$$$ to clean out!

This was ASTM spec B100 that was heated to remove the Methanol and water. The fuel was double filtered to 2 microns, then pumped thru DUAL water seperators...per the owner.

FWIW, those are Before and after pictures of the injectors...lots of work to pretty them up and get them to fire right.

Yes, it does appear that the water settled down into the nozzle area thus the rust. The nozzle were chucked and new stock nozzles installed.
 
Last edited:

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Absolutely B5 and I would even say B10, but this B100 is a REAL PAIN in the A$$$$$$ to clean out!

This was ASTM spec B100 that was heated to remove the Methanol and water. The fuel was double filtered to 2 microns, then pumped thru DUAL water seperators...per the owner.

FWIW, those are Before and after pictures of the injectors...lots of work to pretty them up and get them to fire right.

Yes, it does appear that the water settled down into the nozzle area thus the rust. The nozzle were chucked and new stock nozzles installed.
Would a good additive have dealt with the water?
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Would a good additive have dealt with the water?
No amount of additive is going to change the fact that the biodiesel broke down and formed a solid layer of varnish covering every internal component. The layer was pretty thick, and took quite a bit of work to completely remove.

I cringe to think what his internal fuel passages look like. This is like a sludge issue not unlike what you find with the use of wrong oil. Every internal passage is completely choked off and coated with a thick varnish/sludge. It requires a lot of work to remove witness the oil sludge thread.

Lucky for the guy I saw it as a challenge to see just how bad a condition they can be in before throwing in the towel...luck for him otherwise he'd be out over $2,400.00 (4x$600 plus the loss of the core charge).
 

toadz1

banned
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Location
CA
TDI
A4
There is no doubt in my mind that running biodiesel in percentages above 2 to 5% decreases the value of a used TDI. I opened up NFSTDI's IP at the last GTG in Nor Cal in late March of 2010, to reseal it and witnessed nothing by yellow gummed up varnish and sludge, coating everything, including rust on the screws on the top of the IP metering device on his 1997 or 1998 Jetta. All his biodiesel was supposedly ATM spec fuel also bought from reliable sources around Berkley, CA.
I have 211k miles on my 1998 Jetta, run on straight D2 since day 1, and when Matt-98AHU and I opened my IP up in late June 2010, it was as shiny and as rust free inside as the day it was put together.
You are only kidding yourself when you think biodiesel is equal or better than ULSD... too many times, I've found it to be an inferior product to run in TDI's.

I would never buy a B4V, or a B4, or an A3 run on high percentages of biodiesel, the experiences and observations of failure don't lie, it damages/rusts everything in the fuel system and injection system over time.


Drivbiwire, what was the total bill in $ to fix and restore all 4 injectors in that PD?
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
I had about 6 hours of labor, billed him for 4.5 plus parts and seal kits.

I just charged the standard rate for PD injector overhaul, but next time I run into this I now know how much time to bill extra for.
 

steelmb

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Location
MB
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Would an ultrasonic cleaner with the right solvent do the job?
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Thats how I cleaned them (Heated Industrial Ultrasonic cleaner + Heavy duty surfactant)...There is no other way to get into the micron sized holes of these things without one to knock the varnish out.
 

ikendu

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Location
Iowa
TDI
2003 Golf Indigo Blue
When will you all learn it ain't worth running bio.
Them's fightin' words!

:)

Literally, as in Gulf War #1, Afganistan, Gulf War #2, etc. ...on into the future (that future shooting war with China as we struggle to control the last large reserves of petroleum on the planet (the Middle East). Let's not turn this thread into "why we use bio" because it has been conversed on deeply, over and over on this forum.

This is the last I will say on this thread.

It is clear to many that using petroleum has many unintended consequences for our environment, our economy and our security. There are those of us that bought a VW diesel solely for the purpose of finding a way to travel, without using so much oil.

For me... it means my first diesel, will be my last diesel. I'm still driving my '03 Blue Indigo Golf TDI (142,000 miles now) and I have found it to be an excellent vehicle; smooth, powerful, great mileage, and... allowed me to cut my use of petroleum by 75% that whole time compared to driving my former gas guzzler, the 36 mpg Honda Civic.

I thnk my next drive will be a Chevy Volt. I can convert my own driving energy, right at my home, and it will be the fuel for which the vehicle was designed. I've loved my Golf and really loved every mile driving on virtually zero petroleum fuel.

For those that you have been driving PDs on B100 for principle... I salute you!

It looks like trying to use a fuel for which the engine was not designed carries risks. I accepted and continue to accept those risks in my '03 ...but probably for only about a year longer.
 
Last edited:

grizzlydiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Location
Virginia, USA
TDI
2000 Jetta 5 speed
obviously everyone has opinions on this, so not to be agrumentative, but ive been running B20, with an occational tank of dino juice when i had to fill up somewhere away from my normal filling station, for the past year and a half. no loss of performance, no drop in fuel economy, and actually, far less black smoke than when i bought it. My current tank is purely my daily commute to and from work, with the AC running in the morning, windows down on the way home, and ive got 420 + miles on 5/8 of a tank.

Compaired to my truck (also diesel) that i was daily driving before the jetta, im using 1/3 the imported foreign fuel, and by running B20 i reduce that by another 20% with domestically produced carbon neutral biodiesel. So for every 100 gallons of imported dino juice i would have burned in my truck, im now only burning 26.666 gallons in my jetta.

better for the environment, better for foreign policy, and bottom line, better for my wallet.
 

diesel-dave

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Location
earth
TDI
2003 wagon TDI, 2003 wagon Tdi, 2013 Q7 Tdi
obviously everyone has opinions on this, so not to be agrumentative, but ive been running B20, with an occational tank of dino juice when i had to fill up somewhere away from my normal filling station, for the past year and a half. no loss of performance, no drop in fuel economy, and actually, far less black smoke than when i bought it. My current tank is purely my daily commute to and from work, with the AC running in the morning, windows down on the way home, and ive got 420 + miles on 5/8 of a tank.

Compaired to my truck (also diesel) that i was daily driving before the jetta, im using 1/3 the imported foreign fuel, and by running B20 i reduce that by another 20% with domestically produced carbon neutral biodiesel. So for every 100 gallons of imported dino juice i would have burned in my truck, im now only burning 26.666 gallons in my jetta.

better for the environment, better for foreign policy, and bottom line, better for my wallet.
are you getting your b20 at the NEX near the Pentagon?
 

diesel-dave

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Location
earth
TDI
2003 wagon TDI, 2003 wagon Tdi, 2013 Q7 Tdi
cool I used to do the same thing d2 and use that when i could.
 

grizzlydiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Location
Virginia, USA
TDI
2000 Jetta 5 speed
yeah that place is pretty cool, when i was toying with the idea of installing a fumigation system on the jetta, i figured i could get my biodiesel and CNG at the same location. It would be pretty convenient. but the mileage increase that i was able to calculate wasnt worth it at current diesel and CNG prices.
 
Last edited:

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
I would never buy a B4V, or a B4, or an A3 run on high percentages of biodiesel, the experiences and observations of failure don't lie, it damages/rusts everything in the fuel system and injection system over time.
Funny, our two B4Vs have been running B80-B100 for some ten years and a couple hundred thousand miles w/o any fuel related issues to date. Guess I better dump them for a reduced price while I can.

Anybody? :D
 

shizzler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Location
Ann Arbor MI
TDI
05 BEW Wagon
When will you all learn it ain't worth running bio.
Disagree completely. Who cares if you have to rebuild the injectors at 140k miles? Over this many miles you've saved 58,000 pounds of CO2 emmision. 58,000! (rough calculation of 75% reduction in carbon emmisions and assuming 40 mpg avg over this many miles). What price do you put on that? Is that achievement worthless?

Some amount of extra maintenance is completely worth it for the reduction in carcinogenic pollution, CO2 emissions, local economy boost, no funding for terrorism, I could go on.

Saying that it wasn't worth it because - oh noes! - we have to rebuild the injectors at 140,000 miles (which can just as easily need doing after running low quality D2 this long) is short sighted, in my opinion. It's just a car, it can be fixed. Our atmosphere and ecosystems are much harder to repair.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
I'd also wonder about the quality of that fuel. Looks like it had water in it.

When I ran B99 I got it from a good source that assured me of its quality. ANY fuel you buy should be like this. It's just easier to find poor quality biodiesel :(

-J
 
Last edited:

tdisky

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Location
Middletown, Rhode Island
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL (hers)
Yup, those pictures sure don't look good.

Tell me, dbw, have you ever run into the same problem, but from D2? Perhaps water in the fuel/old/contaminated? Did you post pictures in the Fuels and Lubricants forum?

If not, it either means you and/or your customers are really lucky, or you're just making an excuse to blame biodiesel (again). It's amusing you keep posting on this forum, when everyone on the continent knows you're anti-bio.

By the way, I ran B100 in my PD often. When hooked up to VAG-Com (sp?) by a well-respected TDI guru, he remarked "Your injectors are really good." So there.
 

toadz1

banned
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Location
CA
TDI
A4
RC, Any time you want to pull the cover off your IP this month and take pictures of the insides of your Quantity Adjusters, on both B4vs, we'll wait and see how the pictures come out. Until then, you're all Hat, and no Cattle.

I know Drivbiwire has done far more timing belts, nozzles, Injector pumps, water pumps than you will ever do, plus he has pictures as proof. Hence his claims have validity, with a sample size at least 1000x larger than yours. Just because your biodiesel that you buy is not damaging does not mean that others haven't had problems with it as an inferior fuel compared to D2.
 
Last edited:

steelmb

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Location
MB
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Yup, those pictures sure don't look good.

Tell me, dbw, have you ever run into the same problem, but from D2? Perhaps water in the fuel/old/contaminated? Did you post pictures in the Fuels and Lubricants forum?

If not, it either means you and/or your customers are really lucky, or you're just making an excuse to blame biodiesel (again). It's amusing you keep posting on this forum, when everyone on the continent knows you're anti-bio.

By the way, I ran B100 in my PD often. When hooked up to VAG-Com (sp?) by a well-respected TDI guru, he remarked "Your injectors are really good." So there.
He's anti bio and backs it up with pictures and well thought bout explanations. You are pro bio and back it up with smoke (not even with a mirror). Why should he not post his opinion? You are posting yours. He is posting his opinion because he feels he is helping the TDIing public. What is wrong with that?
 

tdisky

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Location
Middletown, Rhode Island
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL (hers)
He's anti bio and backs it up with pictures and well thought bout explanations. You are pro bio and back it up with smoke (not even with a mirror). Why should he not post his opinion? You are posting yours. He is posting his opinion because he feels he is helping the TDIing public. What is wrong with that?
Actually, it smoked very little on the ASTM-grade B100. :D What was that about a mirror?

Again, my orginal question was: has dbw seen these kinds of problems with D2? And if so, did he start a thread or post the pictures on the appropriate forum? Yes or no.

What's wrong with that?
 

toadz1

banned
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Location
CA
TDI
A4
I had about 6 hours of labor, billed him for 4.5 plus parts and seal kits.
I just charged the standard rate for PD injector overhaul, but next time I run into this I now know how much time to bill extra for.
Pete, I didn't ask about how much time it took you or parts needed. I asked, what was the bottom line, how much did it cost to fix this mistake... in 2010 US Dollars. More important to assess the damage to the wallet than the nozzles, ya know? :D Maybe when folks see how much it costs to fix the error of their ways, they'll heed your advice.


What is the new going rate for a Drivbiwire PD nozzle cleaning service, if the car has been run on biodiesel? Is it 4.5 hours @ $120/hr, for $540, plus parts, plus sales tax? I saw you once change an A3 timing belt at a GTG in 45 minutes and bill $175 for it, worked out to about $240 an hour.
 
Last edited:

Aquaticmind

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Location
Wheeling, WV via Athens Georgia via, Bainbridge Is
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
since BioD is pretty new to the market, I think we are still in the development and refinement phase of biodiesel.

With sometime and research.. I hope.. Bio quality can improve and car can be designed to run higher percentages of bio.

I use anywhere from B99 to pure D2, plus an additive in each tank. I hope the car lasts forever, but I'm happy to know each time I fill up with bio that I am supporting a renewable alternative to foreign oil.
 

greengeeker

Vendor
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Cambridge, MN
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS
We're talking high %'s of Bio in a PD people. Lest we forget, fuel temps in a PD >> fuel temps in a VE. Maybe aja8888, methylester or similar can clue us in on the temps where B100 and ULSD break down and compare that to typical operating fuel temps in the two motors.

DBW - What did symptoms did the car exibit? How do you think the restricted fuel passages are going to affect performance?
 

mafrif

Veteran Member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Location
MN/ Iowa Border
TDI
2013 Passat TDI 6MT
ASTM biodiesel (made from fat, grease, or whatever) is inferior to ASTM SOYdiesel.

Both have the same spec but the SOYdiesel is far superior.

I would like to know if this was Biodiesel or SOYdiesel?

I have run over 100,000 gallons of ASTM & BQ9000 SOYdiesel through a fleet of diesel vehicles with 0 problems. Ratios from B2 to B20.

I have run about 3,000 gallons of ASTM & BQ9000 Biodiesel (animal fat) at B10 with 8 injector failures in three weeks, I quit running anything until the Iowa DOT and my agency stated we would not buy anything but SOYdiesel. They switched there tanks and everything has been good since.

I still don't think high concentrations of Soydiesel is a good idea, testing in my line of work has shown a 60%soy/ 40% D2 is the maximum ratio regarding MPG, power, and maintenance issues. I only use a maximum of 20% soy when the price is acceptable.

Just my opinions and experiences.
 

philngrayce

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Location
Connecticut
TDI
'02 Jetta, '06 Jetta, Both Gone '13 Leaf, Gone Liberty CRD, Subaru Forrester and MB300SD
I thnk my next drive will be a Chevy Volt. I can convert my own driving energy, right at my home, and it will be the fuel for which the vehicle was designed. I've loved my Golf and really loved every mile driving on virtually zero petroleum fuel.

Can you hold off a bit longer? I'm hoping the VW plug in hybrid diesel will be here in a few years. And if they have solved the biodiesel or WVO thing for new diesels...
 
Top