So is 505.01 a waste of time in the BRM TDI's? I think it is.

[Harvieux]

I think it's more emissions related in North America and we have a different emissions standard then that of the EC [CE mainland]. Think zinc.





Incorrect according to the forums I'm reading all over europe. Some better threads are in Spain and France. Please keep in mind, many of the PD vehicles bought in europe are maintained by the concessionaire. A client drops his/her car off to their concession [dealership] and the service departemente performs the service under warranty. I found it rare to see new owners of a vehicle changing their own oil or doing any routine maintenance during the warranty period.

If there are issues with an engine usually it's dealt with at the level of the concessionaire and sometimes without the client being aware that there was a problem. Maybe many cams and followers were taken care of during a routine maintenance and quietly swept under the warranty mumble jumbo fine print upon the client receiving the keys to drive off. "We're sorry it took us 3 days to get that special fitting madame."

Very interesting here, Brian. Seems to me to be a bit on the conspiracy theorist's train but, interesting enough to say the least. Later!

 

[BrianCT]

Very interesting here, Brian. Seems to me to be a bit on the conspiracy theorist's train but, interesting enough to say the least. Later!

A bit'ov eh sticky wicket!

Hodgey_MKIV_Fourms_UK]
Snip.......And then I started to think, I talked to Jim again and he said that he was doing 1 or 2 of these a week - that's getting into 100 a year in one garage in the UK so how many of these are done worldwide. I decided to phone Volkswagen Customer Care and once I had persuaded them that I wasn't trying to change their mind about the good-will (although I wanted it), I asked them if this was a commonly reported problem. Much typing later didn't produce much news and I was passed onto the technical bloke who decides who gets the good-will - again he had never heard of the problem on their system. And then it dawned on me, if they don't give the good-will, it isn't logged as a common fault on their computer system. And most of the cars just borderline their 5 year, 100k miles and FSH criteria......

 

[kcfoxie]

For what it's worth...

My oil usage history:
0-5000 - Castrol whatever breakin
5000 - 10000 MOTUL 50501
10000 - 20000 MOTUL 50501
20000 - 30000 MOTUL 50501
30000 - 40000 CASTROL 50501 (DEALER)
40000 - 50000 ELF 50501
60000 - 70000 ELF 50501
70000 - 80000 ELF 50501
80000 - 90000 MOBIL 1 TDT

At 90k I see pitting and scoring, nothing like others have posted -- this appears to be just the start. We've sent the TDT off for an analysis at Blackstone and I will post the PDF in the oil analysis thread. I intend to visually inspect the cam at 100k, 110k and 120k using TDT and sending off a sample to Blackstone to see what's going on. I'm well out of warranty, that warranty replaced an airbag and that was about it -- so we shall see what happens. I'm willing to play guinea pig. Also open to suggestions.

 

[ssamalin]

Have you inspected your cams? There may be an art and science to judging how damaged cams must be to need replacment. It would be usefull to know whether your cams are damaged, or how damaged they are, and still trouble free. You also may benefit by knowing better your risks of riding on them.

gurus: how well do we know when to call a cam job? I can't afford peace of mind at 80 k but if I have to I have to.

So... how unique is it that we have a PD TDI with 140,000 miles on it with nothing but 505.01? I know that it has always had 505.01 because I have done all of the oil changes (just about to do the 140k... which is slightly overdue). It's running pretty well so far... even with occasional B100 use.

 

[nortones2]

I've posted re the 150 version, which was not imported to the USA. If thats your only source, BrianCT, then you speak out of turn. The 150 hp engines were a cause of some problems, but its not known whether the 505.01 oils were used at all. Since that time, the PD has been virtually free from issues of this sort. The warranty in Europe is somewhat less than the USA. "Maybe many cams and followers were taken care of during a routine maintenance and quietly swept under the warranty mumble jumbo fine print upon the client receiving the keys to drive off. "We're sorry it took us 3 days to get that special fitting madame." This is utter dribble. Dealers and VAG are not known for covert acts of kindness.

 

[BrianCT]

This is utter dribble.

Okay. I retract. The PD motors are very, very, very dependable and you're 100% correct on any and all assumptions chap.

Sorry to've wasted your time and the TDICLUBS too.

Wed, Dec 3 2008 5:05 AM Re: PD150/130 Camshaft Problems

s99dub Bora Sport 1.9 ASZ 130PS
Quote Reply Contact

• Joined on Sat, Oct 27 2007
• Location: cardiff
• Posts 89
• 

im just a partsman that has worked in VW mainstealers for 8 years (off and on) PD engines are very good engines but as this thread mentions there is a "camshaft" issue!
the thing is its not the camshaft that is the problem, its the hydraulic tappits (or buckets if you like) the factory ones are a weak point in the engine and these were revised in november 2005. The original ones straight out the factory were chrome topped, the new revised ones are black in colour and apparantly they are "baked" longer and with that they are strengthened!

the actual fault is the buckets wear on the top, causing them to bow out on the lobes of the camshaft, which in turn then wears the lobes and causes all the faults described. The worst case scenario is that the camshaft will snap and in this case the head will not be servicable (these are around £1500 + vat from stealer)
with me knowing this i replaced the tappits around about 12k ago (around 130k) camshaft was inspected and did not show any signs of wear and only one of my buckets were showing the slightest part of being worn.

but........................

i now think my cam is on its way out, ive got a sneaky feeling im losing power, slight missfire when cold and then goes away when engine warms up so my so called "cheaper" fix is now not good enough by the look!

PLEASE NOTE
this is my opinion based on what i have dealt with whilst working for VW, none of this is gospel and im am not a technician!! im am just a have a go hero and this is my 2 pence worth

custom re-map, full de-cat pipe 2.5 straight throu, J-Tech Coileys, Eibach ARB's & RS6's, aeros, recaro trim.........more to come!!!

 

[kcfoxie]

Z-snap....

 

[SBAtdijetta]

I've posted re the 150 version, which was not imported to the USA. If thats your only source, BrianCT, then you speak out of turn. The 150 hp engines were a cause of some problems, but its not known whether the 505.01 oils were used at all. Since that time, the PD has been virtually free from issues of this sort.

The problem has been seen in all versions PD150/130/100. Admittedly yes more in the PD150's but that does not change the fact it has still been observed plenty in the PD100's of the EU/UK as well.

To Brian's post ^^^ above I agree; only I don't think VW solved it with the lifters. VAG did revise the lifters and I think most of us are aware of that. (I hope anyway) That does point to an obvious problem, and VAG even knowing about it... and attempting to "quick fix it" under the radar...;-(

However I don't agree that the Black lifters have solved the issue... Case in point my PD100 BRM was a 04/06 build and got 4 Black lifters (on exhaust side), and 4 silver lifters (on intake side); but this did not stop the exhaust lifters from wearing and damaging the cam. The black exhaust lifters were still the first to wear and start to bowl even at <40k.

I still maintain it is an EP additive & oil issue. Run an oil designed for flat tappet lifters (non EPA molested) or add an additive, and you wont have the issues.

EX:

 

[PDJetta]

Have you inspected your cams? There may be an art and science to judging how damaged cams must be to need replacment. It would be usefull to know whether your cams are damaged, or how damaged they are, and still trouble free. You also may benefit by knowing better your risks of riding on them.

gurus: how well do we know when to call a cam job? I can't afford peace of mind at 80 k but if I have to I have to.

I just did my first oil sample at 100,000 miles (an '04 Jetta PD). I almost think the results are flawed because the iron is so darn low. This is at 10,000 miles on Motul 505.01:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Oil_Sample_1.pdf

Like McBrew, I have used 505.01 without fail each and every oil change, done by me. All 11 of them. If the iron reading of 16 ppm is correct and is indicative of wear rates, I am sure my cam and lifters are fine.

--Nate

 

[SBAtdijetta]

^^^ Oddly enough some failures or beginnings of them did not show up in UOAs for some. Particles to big maybe? IDK...

Also another example for those who don't believe that this is an EP/oil issue. Look at the VAG 2.0T FSI motors. They have a (1) flat tappet style lifter for the high pressure fuel pump follower/cam lobe. While the rest of the lobes (intake / exhaust) have rollers of course.

If you look over on the VWVortex, Audi fourtitude, and other Gasser Audi/VW forums you will see these failing at a very high rate on modded and stock cars as well, and VW parts websites selling replacement followers at a high rate. Luckily for that motor it is a much easier and cheaper fix (only 1 follower), and if it has really gone bad or gone a really long time, or you have the old A version design cam you may have to replace the intake cam with a new one, and replace the follower as well but that still much cheaper than the PD TDI job would be.

After that many are switching oils to non VAG 502.00 spec, or simply just replacing that follower every 15-20k or as wear dictates like it is a regular maintenance item, or both if needed.

 

[McBrew]

Have you inspected your cams?

Yes, I inspected them when I changed the TB at about 104k miles and they looked fine.

 

[vwrobert51]

hears 1 2004 jetta tdi i have from new, used 50501 every 5k, i now have 89k miles of hard stop and go driving, never had 1 problem with car, cams look like new car drives like new!!!! OH and i work for a dealer! with all the correct oil in stock, and a staff that knows what tdi get what oil. having said that, i have not even seen any cam problems on my cust cars. who are serviced by us.

 

[TornadoRed]

hears 1 2004 jetta tdi i have from new, used 50501 every 5k, i now have 89k miles of hard stop and go driving, never had 1 problem with car, cams look like new car drives like new!!!! OH and i work for a dealer! with all the correct oil in stock, and a staff that knows what tdi get what oil. having said that, i have not even seen any cam problems on my cust cars. who are serviced by us.

That's great -- but your sample size must be very small. How many PD TDIs are there on your island? And how many of them have a significant number of miles? I spent a few years on Oahu, so I know how hard it is to accumulate 10k miles a year.

 

[Dimitri16V]

my PD has 172K as of today. a friends 04 has about 188K. In both cars , lifters are OK and in mine the UOAs have been excellent since 100K using mostly TDT and occasionally 506.01

Soon I have to replace the timing belt , I will post some pics of the valvetrain

 

[jjblbi]

I bought my 11/06 build date BRM Jetta new in July of 07 and now have 72k miles on it. I have done all my own oil changes @ 5k, 10k, 20k, etc using 5w-40 Elf 505.01 then it's Total 5w-30 replacement for two changes before this last one. For this last change I used up 2 qts of the Total and some older Delvac 1. Going forward I will be using Mobil TDT 5w-40. So far no known issues and I will post cam pics during the timing belt change in about three months.

I'm hoping using the correct quantity and quality of oil will have spared me from the dreaded cam disinegration. My personal theory (flame suit on) is a bad batch of cams and/or low oil level due to the wrong dipstick. I am lucky to have always had the correct dipstick and keep the level on the high side. I would be very pissed if my car came with the wrong dipstick!

My $.02, John

 

[BadMonKey]

We may not need another 505.01 thread, but maybe we need a "stop telling newbies their PD engine requires 505.01" thread..... or an "it's okay to run a CJ-4 oil or even CI-4 in your PD" thread.

.


This one made me chuckle to read here! How passionate everyone was here about the use 505.01 oil and its magical cam wear fighting properties.

And all those poor members that got tared a feathered here because they where not using the precious 505.01 oil in their PD's. You can still find veteran members bashing F/S threads about their oil selection.

 

[ssamalin]

Yup. I put delvac in at 7500 miles. A lot of people said I was destroying my car and I went to 505.01 per 10k. I am going to TDT per 5k now at 80k. I don't think though that 505.01 vs CJ-4 is what is causing the wear, not on it's own. My car has no problems and I'll post my cam pictures at 80k.

.


This one made me chuckle to read here! How passionate everyone was here about the use 505.01 oil and its magical cam wear fighting properties.

And all those poor members that got tared a feathered here because they where not using the precious 505.01 oil in their PD's. You can still find veteran members bashing F/S threads about their oil selection.

 

[BrianCT]

.


This one made me chuckle to read here! How passionate everyone was here about the use 505.01 oil and its magical cam wear fighting properties.

And all those poor members that got tared a feathered here because they where not using the precious 505.01 oil in their PD's. You can still find veteran members bashing F/S threads about their oil selection.

I never got into the arena concerning oil. I had [4] 2006 diesel Volkswagen's with either BEW or BRM engines swarming my driveway at any given day. That was when all my friends in 2005 wanted diesel and I talked them into buying from Langhorne VW in PA.

I ended up panicking them on the dealership service and the "wrong" oil. They all ended up in my driveway at different intervals wanting an oil change. Of all the PD's I've done... the only one is the BRM Jetta 2006 of my better half that's had cam wear. Remember though, the car was chipped and putting out some really GOOD horsepower almost off the shore room floor [1,400 miles new].

Anyway of the swarm, I have 3 PD New Beetles, all 2006 BEW [DSG] without any issues cam wise. All are below 50,000 miles.

My guess? Wait and see.

BrianCT

 

[Mach1]

I got to see another BRM that has 82000 miles on it..I explained to the customer that i wanted to pull the VC and check the cam..

Donor vehicle had 82000 miles and still OEM cam...Had only 505.01 oil in it from the factory..Key point---5000 OCI's...

Pulled VC and the #3 exhaust lobe had MINIMUM scoring to it..thats it, the rest were as good or better then mine at 93000..

This cam/lifters had minimum wear on them...

My cam had minimum wear on it at 93000, but I run 506 CRV oil with 15000 OCI..

I am sticking with..its the EPL in the oil that determines the longevity of the cam...So in went ZDDP..

And on my first OA after additive in my engine..Iron was cut in half down to 37ppm on 15000 OCI..

Its not whats in the oil that is protecting your cam, its whats not in the oil that isn't protecting your cam...Extreme Pressure lubricate...

 

[PDJetta]

I just had an oil analysis done on the oil from my '04 BEW and I had an iron level of 16 ppm, using Motul 505.01 5W-40. 10,000 miles on the oil. Car had 100,000 miles on it. I am quite happy.

--Nate

 

[hid3]

So Motul is for the winners! Nice to see someone with perfect results using MOTUL. It's my favourite oil and it is what I actually use in my TDI PD after cam replacement. Will shorten OCIs to 10,000 kms (6215 miles) and that will be neede accurate.

 

[oEo]

This weekend I'll be changing out my Total 5w30 @ 7.5k miles and sending to the lab for analysis. This will be my 3rd UOA on 505.01. (previous numbers are post #40 in the database)

I'm going to give TDT a shot and see how it does.

side note-- this winter on start-ups leaving from work the car didn't shake like it did with the 5w40 -- big deal!

 

[ssamalin]

So you think 506 with ZDDP per 15K, or 505.01 per 5K is the way to go for a BRM? What about TDT? You mean TDT doesn't have EPL so it's not good??

I got to see another BRM that has 82000 miles on it..I explained to the customer that i wanted to pull the VC and check the cam..

Donor vehicle had 82000 miles and still OEM cam...Had only 505.01 oil in it from the factory..Key point---5000 OCI's...

Pulled VC and the #3 exhaust lobe had MINIMUM scoring to it..thats it, the rest were as good or better then mine at 93000..

This cam/lifters had minimum wear on them...

My cam had minimum wear on it at 93000, but I run 506 CRV oil with 15000 OCI..

I am sticking with..its the EPL in the oil that determines the longevity of the cam...So in went ZDDP..

And on my first OA after additive in my engine..Iron was cut in half down to 37ppm on 15000 OCI..

Its not whats in the oil that is protecting your cam, its whats not in the oil that isn't protecting your cam...Extreme Pressure lubricate...

 

[velociT]

So you think 506 with ZDDP per 15K, or 505.01 per 5K is the way to go for a BRM? What about TDT? You mean TDT doesn't have EPL so it's not good??

TDT has natural high-levels of additives including zinc and phos.

 

[ssamalin]

So no need for ZDDP then.

TDT has natural high-levels of additives including zinc and phos.

 

[velociT]

So no need for ZDDP then.

You can still add some if you want to, but I don't.

 

[04SlvrJetta]

I bought my 04 PD Jetta in Jul, 07 and have no idea what oil was run before I got it. I have changed the oil every 10,000 with the Castrol SLX professional from my dealer. I'm just now due for my 140k change and have not had issues. Three questions.....What's the most trouble-free miles anyone has on a PD? How does this problem present itself? What is the spec of the oil I am using (I think it's the 507.00, is that right)?

 

[velociT]

507.00 spec is for 07+ diesels with DPF's.

My recommendation would be a 40w oil rich in additives.... 507 is neither.

 

[syntrix]

I kinda just scanned but this discussion is about the published oil spec for BRM's, and not 507.00... unless there's a mass campaign/mailer that I missed.

Mine runs just fine @ 56k. I'm willing to pull the valve cover and a bearing cap or two to inspect during a free weekend.

Now my DMF is another issue :mrgreen:

 

[Mach1]

V--good thought..get the 507 out of the BRM's...

SSAm, yes they are seeing good results with the TDT..It has a very robust additive package..

I would not run 505.01 to 10000, if I did, I would add ZDDP...I have seen a handful of BRMs that have good cams and the commonality is 505.01 to 5000 miles...Which tells me something is getting used up...Extreme pressure lubricate??? ZN/PH???