So I was driving last night and accelerated an the car died

[petscanning]

It seemed to basically acted as though it had no fuel. It would crank just not start. Now from reading the forums it can be a couple of things Fuel pump or fuel filter. My question is if I wanted to check the fuel pump without pull the backseat of and listening for the pump to start up. Can I just unhook the line going into the filter turn the key on and the pump should push fuel out of the hose if working then move on to the filter? To be honest I have had the car for 140k miles and the filter has only been changed back when it was under warranty. Yes I know bad owner. I'm just almost willing to bet its the filter but would the filter just make it die completely or would I see a difference up to that point. The car has been great and runs as strong as the day I bought it. Thanks for your replies. Oh yes if you have no problems getting the hoses off the filters how long would you think it takes to the filter?

2002 vw jetta tdi

 

[dieseldorf]

My question is if I wanted to check the fuel pump without pull the backseat of and listening for the pump to start up.


Pets, there is no fuel pump under the back seat to listen for.


To be honest I have had the car for 140k miles and the filter has only been changed back when it was under warranty. Yes I know bad owner.

What would common sense dictate at this time

Pets, diesels get real expensive when maintenance is neglected. You might be lucky and get away with just a fuel filter change, or there could be more $erious issues ahead.


Welcome to Fred's !!

 

[n1das]

A fuel filter change is a 10 minute DIY job and the filter is up top and up front. If simple stuff like the fuel filter has been neglected, it makes me wonder what else has been neglected.

When was the timing belt last changed?

When the engine died, did it all of a sudden totally quit, like you shut it off? A neglected fuel filter generally gives some warning ahead of time due to fuel starvation. A timing belt failure results in an abrupt shutoff like you turned it off with the key. A timing belt failure usually gives NO WARNING before failure. If the timing belt fails while the engine is running, it trashes the engine due to pistons crashing into open valves ....big $$$$$.$$ to fix. They are repairable most of the time but sometimes the engine gets totaled. IIRC, a new engine costs around $5k, not including the labor to install it.

Good luck and I'm hoping it's something simple and not expensive.

Welcome to TDIclub.

 

[n1das]

...diesels get real expensive when maintenance is neglected.

Gassers get expensive too if neglected....it's not limited to diesels. Treat any car like it's disposable and it WILL be disposable.

 

[petscanning]

well over all I hope I've been good to her. Changed the oil on time and the transmission fluid and tires and belts and air filter even clean the anti shutter valve religously ever since my first experience with and the stealer ship. I have to admit I did not look to see if the belt failed. I am going to swing by and look at the belt and see if there is fuel in the line and then decide if I want to leave it at the repair place or take it home. Thanks and I know Ive been bad

 

[puter]

I'd like to reiterate what dieseldorf said, This is not a car you purchase without intent to maintain it. "Yes I know bad owner" is not good enough. This isn't just about chastizing, if your TB broke you are looking at several thousand dollars in damages all because you didn't keep up on your maintenance.

Hondas, toyotas, etc can be ignored like this. If you want to ignore maintenance on your car then sell it and get a different car...you cannot get away with that on a tdi.

 

[weedeater]

I would check the oil level. Rapid acceleration followed by a shutdown is a sign of a blown turbo.

 

[n1das]

I would check the oil level. Rapid acceleration followed by a shutdown is a sign of a blown turbo.

I don't think the OP had rapid (runaway) acceleration all by itself followed by shutdown. From what the OP wrote, I interpret it as the OP accelerated intentionally and then it abruptly died and wouldn't restart.

My bet is on TB failure since everything seemed normal and then it abruptly died.

 

[mrGutWrench]

(snip) My bet is on TB failure since everything seemed normal and then it abruptly died.

__. My first thought, too. I hope not but it sure sounds like it.

 

[puter]

OP: some TB failures can be well hidden. when you check the TB make sure you also check for any missing teeth.

Hopefully it's not the TB.

 

[n1das]

OP: some TB failures can be well hidden. when you check the TB make sure you also check for any missing teeth.

X2. Mine was. TB failure is a sore subject with me right now given that my 05 PD JWagen experienced a TB failure a week and a half ago. The car is currently at mrchill's shop in Braintree MA. The failure happened in Waterbury CT and abruptly died as I accelerated to pass another car on the highway. Sound familiar???

Luckily I was able to take an exit ramp and safely coast off the highway. I popped the TB cover off while the car was dead on the side of the road and looked at the TB. It appeared to be not broken and still had tension on it from what little I could see. Chris Hill (mrchill) later confirmed the TB failure. The belt broke but it wasn't obvious when I first looked at it with the car dead on the side of the road. That's how my 4th of July holiday weekend began.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2616550&postcount=40

 

[petscanning]

Ok update my mechanic said my belt lost some teeth on it but the good news is everything internally is ok. He said I was lucky or it might have cost me 3k so there are going to replace TB, water pump since they are in there already a couple of other things he mentioned and the fuel filter. So cost $1200
Well I learned a lesson about TDI's and probably should have known more about them. I have a 2005 passat TDI being shipped to me this week that has 60k on it and I'll def be more proactive with it. I wanted the passat for a bigger vehicle and I love my TDI so I had to find one of those. Thanks for the help Pet

 

[n1das]

Ok update my mechanic said my belt lost some teeth on it but the good news is everything internally is ok. He said I was lucky or it might have cost me 3k so there are going to replace TB, water pump since they are in there already a couple of other things he mentioned and the fuel filter. So cost $1200

NO!!! Your engine is NOT OK internally!! The head HAS to come off and be rebuilt! How does the mechanic know it's OK? Did he pull the head?

Whenever there is valve & piston contact due to a TB failure, the head HAS to come off for a rebuild, even if it "appears" OK and the engine still starts and runs with a new belt. Even if the valves don't appear damaged, the stem part of a valve is kinked somewhere and the valve guides often are damaged. It's a ticking time bomb and the fuse is has already been lit.

Frequently after a TB failure where the head wasn't pulled and rebuilt and the engine appeared to be OK after installing a new belt, the valve breaks off at the kink and falls into the cylinder and bounces around on top of the piston and totally trashes the engine. This usually happens a couple of thousand miles or so after putting the new belt on and thinking everything is OK.

Also during the job, the mechanic absolutely MUST REPLACE the one-time use engine mount bolts with NEW bolts so you don't have to worry about the engine falling out later on.

Good luck.

 

[petscanning]

I called him back and I thought he said he pulled the heads off but I wanted to make sure from your post. He said he did b/c he started telling me of the problems if he didn't. I shut the car down pretty quick once it happened and he said that is what probably saved me. I would think he would charge me for the whole thing if he thought it was necessary especially to make a few extra bucks so I feel better but you never know

I also did check out their reviews on several websites and all super positive plus when I got there they had 2 other TDI's there both with over 250k miles on them which I actually saw with my own eyes one the cars being owned by one of them. So my crap shoot looks better than it did but you have to tell yourself its going to be alright or you will worry about all the time. Pet

 

[puter]

You should have the heads sent off to franko7. I don't know your mechanic, and it's good that he knew to take the heads off, but there's a good chance that he doesn't know exactly what to look for. Franko does.

You will have a lot of very expensive damage if it turns out he was wrong about there being no damage. If your valves made contact with the piston at all, then they are damaged and will break off at some point trashing the engine.

 

[n1das]

You should have the heads sent off to franko7. I don't know your mechanic, and it's good that he knew to take the heads off, but there's a good chance that he doesn't know exactly what to look for. Franko does.

You will have a lot of very expensive damage if it turns out he was wrong about there being no damage. If your valves made contact with the piston at all, then they are damaged and will break off at some point trashing the engine.

X2. What puter said.
IIRC, I think it's Franko6.

I shut the car down pretty quick once it happened and he said that is what probably saved me.

There is no way a driver can "get it shut off in time" to prevent damage when a TB failure occurs while the engine is running. The damage happens literally within a couple of milliseconds following the failure. Whenever there is valve and piston contact while the engine is turning, there most certainly IS damage.

I seriously doubt any driver is fast enough to be able to recognize a TB failure in time, react quickly enough, and get the engine shut down and completely STOPPED turning before a valve gets smacked by a piston. I say NO WAY. The damage is already done instantly (within a millisecond or two) after the failure and long before the driver first realizes the engine just died while driving.

Here's what the OP may need to buy soon:
https://www.boraparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=265

I feel the OP's pain. I'll be buying a new BEW PD engine very soon for my 05 PD JWagen.

 

[petscanning]

well got the Jetta back a couple of days ago and appears to be running fine. Just so that you know before I even picked the Jetta I called 3 random vw dealerships in the country and talked to the service engineers and asked them about the TB failure and if it was possible that the heads and valves and such were still ok b/c I was worried. All three told me that they do see quiet often TB failures without damage but that you had to inspect the heads very well to make sure and told me what to look for. Then I talked to the mechanic at Metric motors which has been in buiseness over 25 years in Edmond, ok about it and the concerns of the TDI board. He assured me that he throughly inspected the heads and this was not his first TDI that he had seen with this problem and he has seen engines that needed redone b/c of a TB failure. I'll go with that and if it fails I'll be on the boards to hear the old "I told you so" but things go well for a while then I'll recommend him as a trusted mechanic for Central Oklahoma. I'll be doing a TB replacement on the Passat thats being shipped to me now once it gets here.
Pet

 

[puter]

just keep in mind how expensive it will be if you are wrong.

 

[petscanning]

just keep in mind how expensive it will be if you are wrong.

well someone said I should ship this to a member of the boards to have them check it out. I have to have some trust in my mechanic to know what he is looking at and I specifically asked if I should rebuild it and he said no. I deal with my cancer patients everyday and if I didn't give them hope that I was doing the right thing for them and that I try my very best then I couldn't sleep at night nor would my practice continue to grow. I'll eat if it doesn't work out.

 

[RamMan4x4]

well got the Jetta back a couple of days ago and appears to be running fine. Just so that you know before I even picked the Jetta I called 3 random vw dealerships in the country and talked to the service engineers and asked them about the TB failure and if it was possible that the heads and valves and such were still ok b/c I was worried. All three told me that they do see quiet often TB failures without damage but that you had to inspect the heads very well to make sure and told me what to look for. Then I talked to the mechanic at Metric motors which has been in buiseness over 25 years in Edmond, ok about it and the concerns of the TDI board. He assured me that he throughly inspected the heads and this was not his first TDI that he had seen with this problem and he has seen engines that needed redone b/c of a TB failure. I'll go with that and if it fails I'll be on the boards to hear the old "I told you so" but things go well for a while then I'll recommend him as a trusted mechanic for Central Oklahoma. I'll be doing a TB replacement on the Passat thats being shipped to me now once it gets here.
Pet

The opinion of three random VW techs means jacks*&t based on the number of dealer caused TB failures that have appeared on this board...but it sounds like your mechanic knows what he is doing and based on your last post you are willing to suffer the consequences if he is wrong. Best of luck!!

 

[PDJetta]

I think if there is ANY valve-piston contact, the involved valves (and possibly their guides) have to be replaced even if there is no visible damage. There could be internal metal stress damage to the valve, most likely at the stem-head interface and many thousands of miles from now (after repair warranty expiration) the valve could break off and trash the motor.

--Nate

 

[TornadoRed]

well someone said I should ship this to a member of the boards to have them check it out. I have to have some trust in my mechanic to know what he is looking at and I specifically asked if I should rebuild it and he said no.

The TDI expert you should talk to is Frank Irving, username Franko6, who is located near Joplin Missouri. Not that far from Oklahoma. Frank rebuilds lots of TDI heads every week, he is much more familiar with the damage caused by contact between pistons and valves. The probability that there was no damage is almost zero.

If you wait for one or more valves to fail, then you might end up needing a cylinder rehoned or even new pistons. You are not saving money by just getting a half-assed timing belt replacement; you are just postponing a major engine repair.

And for $1200, I sure hope you got all the necessary parts replaced. I'm betting you did not.