slow, dumb, cheap compound setup!

[[486]]

Ugh, got lots of solid fuel coming out the lines, no bubbles, tighten down the line nuts, no smoke, no wet GPs

Maybe a junk pump head that can't build enough pressure to open the injectors? Hell. Gonna smack the top cover over toward the rear of the engine, more fuel more better? I know on mechanicals you want to bleed it with a brick on the go pedal, but don't really know what the cranking fuel maps look like beyond the one with temperature that everyone changes to 'fix' the 'hot start issue'.

ETA: maybe I put the cam plate in 180 off shooting the fuel right out the exhaust valve? Unlikely but worth a shot. Flopped the pulley around on the belt, there's 6 slots in it, but only three line up with the IP's bolt holes, didn't find a chainsaw file in time to remedy that while it was out, so I've gotta do that mess AGAIN because it still doesn't smoke white, even with the top cover bumped to the end of its slots.
Figured out the tensioner can be done with a snap ring pliers, only a moderate pain.

I think I'll pull the IP pulley again, head over to my dad's, fix the slots with the mill and then try whatever you guys have got for me when I get back, because my next guess is pulling the pump again to see if the control collar siezed to a no-fuel position or something. Could see that happening and it still making enough pressure to get past the DVs but not the injectors.

 

[ketchup]

Maybe pull an injector but leave it connected to see if it's actually popping when you're cranking?

You said you retarded the timing. You could try advance the static pump timing back up again. My 11mm pump wouldn't run with the timing pin in, i had to pull the pin and advance it a smidgen beyond the pin hole.

 

[Digital Corpus]

It is, essentially. It's a 'crude' recalibration though only crude due to not having a direct way of measuring the flow from your nozzles. Since bigger holes flow more, a lower QA voltage is require to flow the same amount of fuel. The adaption changes the known IQ value and hammering the QA to physically adjust where it is on the IP piston.

 

[[486]]

Maybe pull an injector but leave it connected to see if it's actually popping when you're cranking?.

#1 spins up nice and easy, pulled it and it was bone dry, cranked it and nothing

Once my vision clears up I'm gonna move the topcover all the way over toward the harmonic balancer side and remove the fusl shutoff solenoid plunger. Way too hot out there. If there are typos it's because I can't see too good right now haha

but anyways, it is back together in the normal timing (not 180 out) and now we know it isn't geting high pressure fuel, Could see the pump making enough pressure to open the DVs with the shutdown solenoid stuck closed, sucking fuel in from the spill port after the "end of injection"

ETA: vision's back, topcover over toward defuel, because without the shutoff plunger, the only shut down is afforded by the QA, or loosening the line nuts to the injectors. Thinking further on it, I'll just pull the glow plugs so it can't start. If there's fuel then, I might wait until I've got a functional shutoff solenoid to try starting it. Bit paranoid about the control collar siezing over the spill port.

 

[[486]]

Did all that junk, put fuel to it with a garden sprayer, removed the fuel shutoff plunger, swapped the 10mm head back on, checked for 12v at the QA and the shutdown solenoid, put ground directly to the QA (ecu makes 5V across it, 12's gotta be better, right?) Can not get fuel out of my injectors. They can't have stuck closed, I drove the car home, parked it, tore it down and now all this junk. Even if the cam plate were 180 out, it'd still be pushing fuel through.

I'm looking at that mechanical fuel pump really lustily at the moment, as though it will cure all of my life's problems.
They're certainly easier to prime, just slip the TB off and spin it with an electric drill...

ETA: Okay, key on across pins 5-6 (QA coil) it is 2.5V, cranking it slowly works its way up to 2.8V. 12v at the shutoff solenoid, clicks when I power it, so the plunger is moving (and the rubber wasn't separated from the metal the three times I've had it out now)

This thing does not do what I want it to, maybe I'm just an idiot.
Going to check case pressure next, maybe the transfer pump has failed in some way? Well beyond flailing blindly at this point.

ETA 06-26-16, 09:36 PM:
Okay, key on across pins 5-6 (QA coil) it is 2.5V, cranking it slowly works its way up to 2.8V. 12v at the shutoff solenoid, clicks when I power it, so the plunger is moving (and the rubber wasn't separated from the metal the three times I've had it out now)

This thing does not do what I want it to, maybe I'm just an idiot.

Gonna go find out how to gauge the case pressure. The valve dingus was backed out 1-2mm, but it was likely like that for years.

 

[Digital Corpus]

FUB nor I have had a chance to complete this yet, but it'll give you some fundamentals of the control signal.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=446345

 

[Rub87]

If you cannot get this vep37 working I think a mechanical pump
Is just asking for more trouble lol. Lots of more to get wrong and lots of harder to dial in. If the only thihg controlling 150 mg of fuel is a cracky membrane / cone and a spring lol

Could it be that u forgot to put the pin of the QA in the hole of the sliding ring on the plunjer?

 

[[486]]

Could it be that u forgot to put the pin of the QA in the hole of the sliding ring on the plunjer?

Yup it is in the hole, and the collar hasn't been flipped over either.

With the nuts on the injectors loose it'll squirt fuel in the proper firing order sequence while cranking. Tighten the injector line nuts down and no fuel gets through the injectors.

Maybe I should put the stock injectors back in, I was an idiot and used a wire wheel on them, a couple of the holes are blocked off, but if they don't let fuel through either I can maybe say it isn't the injectors fault...

Going to drill and tap the pump outlet fitting for a pressure gauge while at work tomorrow.

 

[Rub87]

Maybe you hammered the pump too fat to low iq side? If the plunjer is not worn out and pump has fuel it must squirt if you slide it far enough to the driver side

 

[[486]]

other injectors act the same

the end plug between the delivery valves, I've just been removing and reinstalling it with a hammer and chisel like is common to do on cooling fan clutches. How tight is it supposed to be? I saw that it was a metal to metal seal, so I assumed it needs to be on there pretty doggone tight. Maybe it's leaking out of that seal. Maybe I dropped a copper washer and didn't notice?

the top cover's over to the driver side 1mm from where it originally was, I've had it all the way over to the ends of the slots.

ETA 06-27-16, 12:40 AM:
I probably tweaked the center plug thing and now its sealing surface isn't sealing in the high pressure.

Shouldn't have hamfisted it with a chisel. tomorrow I'll try to pull it out and lap it flat on the surface plate. make up a socket with three sides to put it back in with a proper wrench
ETA 06-27-16, 09:43 PM:
Well, couldn't lap it flat as the surface is recessed to protect it from damage.

Stuck a copper washer in there haphazardly, and it works for now. Going to make the torque limiter like 20mg/str across the board until I can get a new end cap, to keep the peak injection pressures maybe a bit more reasonable. Little bitty pp764s, and the copper washer is mashed against a slope, away from the pressure. :\ The 12mm pump head did cure my white smoke on startup, though.

I shouldn't be this happy that I'm just a hamfisted boob.
Well anyways, 12mm chinese head and pp764s now. The DSS-R .360s are next up once I run this setup out of fuel.

 

[[486]]

Okay, driving it around. Multiplied the smoke maps (entirely) by .6, really made it a dog, 600-800 degree EGTs maximum, haha. New smoke maps, divided by .6, then multiplied by .8, so we'll see where that'll get us.
Top cover seal is leaking so now I gotta pull the cover off to replace that. Jeez I knew that hammer mod was a bad idea. Ordered the new plug, going to mill the three sided thing into a normal six sided one before I install it, because of how badly I hate unservicable fasteners.
Got the vacuum pump stuff all wired up, but never did anything toward installing it. Maybe I'll do something with it later, maybe it'll sit on the shelf next to the jake brake I put about a hundred hours of machining into. Can always be dumped in at a moment's notice if the vacuum pump on the motor poops out.

Next up is to get water in the IC. Got a prius pump and some sort of general motors heater core for a radiator. Probably just stuff the heater core in front of the wheelwell mounted IC, maybe zip tie it onto the bumper bar in front of the normal radiator. Yeah, that seems a better idea. Thinking a ballast resistor running all the time, at like 6V or whatever, then a pressure switch going to a delay relay, hit 10 PSI and you get 12V at the pump, let off and it'll keep running at 12v for a few seconds. Some would do a PWM controller and transistor magic, but that's above my head. Others would use the EGR valve control to have the ECU switch a relay to run the pump, but I tried finding info on that for the jake brake project and got nowhere. So, dumb as dirt 'delay relay, resistor, and pressure switch' controller it is.

 

[dremd]

Thoughts on the intercooler pump control:
1) thermostat in the water return line from the intercooler. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B014...thermostat&dpPl=1&dpID=41b+1xRflYL&ref=plSrch

2) or much better differential thermostat between the water temp and ambient temp.

http://www.mydtcstore.com/index.html

Yeah, ive thought about this before.

 

[Rub87]

Why you need a thermostat? colder is better.. You just dont want the pump to be drawing 20 amps while staying in traffic. Just make a simple PWM analog controller with a 555 timer/opamp/FET. should find drawing on the net pretty easy.

 

[[486]]

I've done the standalone PWM thing, to control an auto trans line pressure control valve. Lots of soldering and doing for something I can accomplish with a resistor. This thing's just a simple little brushed dc motor.

ETA 7-1-16 12:43AM:
Ran it hard some with the new smoke maps, burns clean high up, but I have no idea if it is achieving 5v at the QA yet, smoke maps are going to get some more tweaking. I think they max out at 42ish mg/str, while my pump volt map sees 5V at 51 mg/str... None of the units really mean anything any more inside the ECU, the airmass is factored by something around 2, the fuel is god only knows where. Eh, tuning to keep the smoke manageable is easy enough.

Had another idea for a "PWM controller" for the intercooler pump. A turn signal relay. hahahahaha

 

[[486]]

Got the new end cap in yesterday. Had ordered a new one and milled the three flats in that bosch forgot to. 15/16" hex on there now, f'in three flats what the heck...

So, got around to changing up the smoke maps to let me get full fuel up high in the revs, did a hard pull up to 80-90 mph
smoked right up to the 5200 rev limiter, td04's still only making 15 psi even after tightening down the actuator rod, going to add some springs on to that to try and get 20 out of it. Saw EMP/IMP of 48/35 so the exhaust side is still pretty doggone undersized.
Next iteration of the thing's getting a 60mm inducer HX40, 16cm twin volute housing, so I can do a quick spool valve and cut that down to 8cm on spoolup. Might run the TD04hl-19t as a HP turbo? Dunno yet. Probably go with the 5cm housing from the saab, as the 7cm takes a little while to wake up, and makes only around 1 psi while cruising, might actually see better EMP/IMP with the smaller housing at cruise.

Anyways enough of that, because the 12mm head siezed or something. You all told me it would, but I covered my ears and shouted so as to not hear. Only getting fuel out of the #3 injector line with the nut cracked. Gonna tear into it later today and see if I can stick the stock pump head back on or if other stuff is broken.

 

[[486]]

Rotor siezed in the head, the little pin sheared, no other damage. Pulled the coolant cap and not even a hiss, it sure wasn't hot when it siezed, and it the head gasket's holding good with the timing pulled back closer to stock amounts.

Finding a metric dowel pin on a saturday or a sunday? Not gonna happen. Got some inch ones laying about, but this one measures 4mm, with a dial caliper so can't tell if it's an over or under size, likely stuck with whatever's most common. A 5/32"+.001 pin would be 4mm nominal, so may find one of those in my stash if I'm incredibly lucky.

Butts.

 

[dremd]

If you have a buddy with a lathe they should be able to turn you a 4mm dowel out of some round stock. Just face it off, turn the OD then part if off to length.

 

[[486]]

If you have a buddy with a lathe they should be able to turn you a 4mm dowel out of some round stock. Just face it off, turn the OD then part if off to length.

heh
tried turning a dowel pin down, and you need so much tool pressure that when it does finally bite and cut, it takes about .010" per pass minimum. :\
Really kicking myself for not jumping on that T&C grinder.
Soft steel would probably last long enough to get me to the core supply place to scout out a 12mm pump core, and I'd likely have no trouble turning one from drill rod, hardening it and tempering it, but again the "magic" of the machine gets in the way. If I'm putting a pin in there I'd rather it be a commercially heat treated one. It isn't something that has hardly any load on it in normal operation, but still.

Just gonna wait until monday and call up my 'friends' to see what they've got, they also usually got some real neat stuff in the turbocharger department for dirt cheap too.
BTW, pin in camplate mics out with a proper mic to .1574"-.1575", so it is definitely 4mm diameter, spot on, plus nothing.

 

[dremd]

I use my tool post grinder on stuff that small.
But if you can find one that's way easier.

Awesome build, awesome thread. I'm really enjoying it all.

 

[[486]]

Got a #21 (maybe 22 I forget) drill blank, right on proper dimension of the one I yanked out. Made it by the core supply place, no VE pumps at all. None, not even a 6 cyl one.

Pretty sure the head siezed from stuuuuupid high injection pressures, it was going fine (two tanks with the smoke limiters set extremely lean) until I got a proper end cap on the plunger section, and the first time I really put the wood to it it locked up. I wouldn't blame the chinese part this time, just the little tiny **** nozzles we've been brainwashed as a community to use and buy.

Debating on if I should bite the bullet and buy another 12mm chinese head, either straight from alibaba (never dealt with them before) or for 4 times the cost from hans, or to just toss the 10mm head back on it.

 

[ketchup]

How about shopping for an 11mm pump? Some folk don't know what they're breaking and can be got for peanuts.

 

[dremd]

I don't remember what I paid for my 11mm, but it was well under $500 and has served me well for 20,000 miles. It isn't a 12mm, but better than a 10mm.

You should start your own Mighty Car Mods style show.

 

[[486]]

How about shopping for an 11mm pump? Some folk don't know what they're breaking and can be got for peanuts.

Eh, I'd just as soon buy a cummins 4bt core pump for $500

Around here all the junkyard pumps are manual trans and around $600, there's a guy in the classifieds selling one for 200ish, iirc? Either way, same junk I've got laying around in parts waiting to be assembled.

I think I'm going to toss the 10mm back together for the time being and get a few 12mm heads coming in on the slow boat from china. Sell the extras on the ebay.

 

[ketchupshirt88]

could look at euro ebay for used bosch 12mm pumps/heads. Iveco trucks, rover, fiat, some tractors...

lots of them if you are not in a hurry and are willing to browse for a while to find what you need.

 

[[486]]

could look at euro ebay for used bosch 12mm pumps/heads. Iveco trucks, rover, fiat, some tractors...

lots of them if you are not in a hurry and are willing to browse for a while to find what you need.

Oh, euro ebay, missed that on the first read-through, was gonna say 'yeah, been watching, same five 9mm 1.6D pumps and junk.
Yeah, then shipping's about $60 (or worse) the chinese ones are looking to be about $80 shipped.

Got the pump back together with the 10mm head on. Fun fact, the hub slipped on the shaft. The timing notch doesn't line up with anything any more, haha. Guess there isn't a key in there. So anyways, got it back together and in there, tried to turn it over by hand to set the tensioner and it locks solid.

I think the shim disc slipped out of its pocket on assembly and the plunger is bottoming out against the end cap. This car just does not like me.
Gonna just tear the pump down and do a complete refresh when the chinese junk shows up. Got the whole seal kit, only used a couple bits of it.

 

[[486]]

Right, the shim had slipped out on assy and the plunger was hitting the end cap.

Yesterday the thing showed up, so after work I tore the pump out, tore it down, blasterated it together again, jammed it in and got some white smoke on cranking. This was all from 7:00 PM to 9:30 or so. heh, getting quick on the pump work.

Anyways, so tonight I flopped the pump around 180 degrees and got some serious white smoke. Advanced it by the entire length of the slots (forgot about the slipped hub when I assembled the t-belt) and it'd fire reluctantly. So, running but massively retarded. Going to replace the T-belt tomorrow because of the abuse it's sustained, and I'll plop the pulley over a tooth or two while its apart.

FUU.... n?
Yeah, fun.
Then I've gotta get the smoke maps back to stuuuuuuupid lean so I don't lock up this pump head too. After that, the .360s are going to go onto the spare bodies that I've got. Gotta find someone with a surface grinder to make another set of hats single stage. Still got the jig at least.

Pop pressures around 300 BAR for the .360s sound about right? Heard others running 240 BAR with two stage bodies, but they were saying stuff about white smoke at idle.

 

[ketchup]

I am going to try 330bar with my .320 nozzles single stage. Interesting to hear what others suggest or recommend.

 

[[486]]

So finally nutted up and yanked the inyecktorss out. Plopped the .360s on, and they all magically pop tested at 4600 PSI, so 317 BAR, and leak down to about 4000 psi.

Except mister odd man out third injector. He pop tests at 3500 PSI. So I take it apart and start measuring the shims on my old stock set of injectors. All the "dumb" ones have two .062" shims. The other third injector has a .053" and a .062, and a .040".

So, I pulled the first shim out and it was .053". Put in a .062" and it pops at 5000+ PSI. Butts. So, spend an hour sanding .002 off of one of the .062s and it's down to 4700. Good enough for the... nobody that I go out with.

One odd thing, the third injector was the only one to make a squealy screamy noise when popping. It also leaks down (into the bleed lines) a little more than the others at 3000 PSI, but I can't bring myself to mind that too much.

The screaming noise, I remember hearing someone say it was either important or bad.
Ignorance will usually pay off in less anxiety, but I still kinda want to know.

ETA 09-03-16 at 01:28 PM:
Jammed them in there along with a stock-ish pump voltage map and hoo boy there's a lot of fuel there. .60 multiplier on the previously clean smoke maps and it's still real smoky.

the revs hang between shifts which I don't like but my previous forays into the pump voltage map have gotten me a real rough running engine

Starting to think I should do something about the lift pump situation. Going to go read up on that, as I could see cavitation causing some bad stuff to happen to the IP as well as the "too small of injectors" that I blamed for the last siezed head.

 

[[486]]

Sixth revision in to getting the smoke maps proper... Was just changing the whole thing as a whole, and ended up with stalling issues at low revs, working my way back up in the left side and down further in the upper right to curtail the smoke when running flat out. Topping out at 30mg/str in the smoke maps, out of 51, and it still smokes like a freight train when up in that region. There's a lot of fuel. Makes the pp764s look like stock nozzles.

Is there any way to reflash these real time?
As in like with megasquirt where you can drive the car and edit the VE maps at the same time.

Very doubtful, but it's worth asking.

 

[Rub87]

sure, its called OLS300 =)

As for the whole process I would really advice to scale IQ axis to 100 or 150 or so. or at least a number that is somewhere near realistic. otherwise in the end you run into other issue like the thresholds for open/closed loop boost control, PID factors that are IQ based etc are all way wrong then.