slow, dumb, cheap compound setup!

[[486]]

So.
Got a TD04 from a guy at work he took off his sewbrew in search of more power. One look at it and the idea got in my brain. "Hey, that thing's bigger'n mine." So I bought it from him for fifty dollars.

Went back to the land of hack-fabbery after some measurements hastily scribbled on some printer paper and came back with this marvel of modern engineering.

As an aside, here's a picture showing on another forum the tool lifter I set up for my metal shaper, while cutting the flanges on this flat. It is a piece of serpentine belt.

Well, and then I forgot to take pictures for the rest.

So it's in there with the wastegate set to 3 PSI and some radiator hoses to corral the boost it makes into the VNT-15.
I also adjusted the vane lever travel stop a little tighter, so that the EMP only spikes to 40 PSI rather than 80 when I get on it in second gear. It doesn't do the jet engine idle noise quite as bad after adjusting that stop, either. Response isn't so violent, too, so the wee little 15 should be a little happier.

Now onto the results from the TD04. It's on there and all, wastegate seems to be set for 3 PSI max, when cruising at 50-75 it sits at 2 PSI interstage boost, so it is taking some load off of the 15.

So far it seems that IMP comes up pretty quickly to right around 20 PSI and stays there until I hit the fueling reduction to stock levels I've got at 4.5k RPM (stock ALH pistons and rods on a 140k mile old bottom end that spent all its life in 5w30 conventional oil)

So far no CEL from the 3 PSI being fed into the VNT15, we'll see if that remains the case once I've got a heavier bottom end in it to deal with some more fuel.

All I did was raised the boost limit map (boost limit/atmospheric) to 2300 at .9bar atm and above, and the SVBL to 2300 mbar. Target map is left more or less alone (I had previously raised the highest values up to something like 2200mbar or something).

As per usual, I'm posting a disjointed badly proofread incomprehensible mess.
Any advice?

 

[Enabled]

... but why when the VNT-15 will happily provide you with the target boost by itself?

 

[[486]]

... but why when the VNT-15 will happily provide you with the target boost by itself?

I distract myself from an otherwise rather empty life by tinkering with machines.
Hah sounds awful when you just out with it, huh?

 

[hughesjasonk]

... but why when the VNT-15 will happily provide you with the target boost by itself?

boost doesn't equal volume.

 

[Dirtracr95]

I distract myself from an otherwise rather empty life by tinkering with machines.
Hah sounds awful when you just out with it, huh?

This guy! Story of my life

 

[dremd]

Very cool
Keep us updated.
Happen to have any pics of how it looks installed?

 

[flee]

boost doesn't equal volume.

With the same supporting mods it would.
[486] did you do any before/after runs with the same fuelling, I/C, etc?

 

[[486]]

With the same supporting mods it would.
[486] did you do any before/after runs with the same fuelling, I/C, etc?

Butt dyno says it is just as fast, can't really say if it is any quicker.

Answers to above, boost does equal volume in this case. Same engine, same RPM, same intake manifold pressure, therefore same airflow.
Exhaust manifold pressure might be lower though. That could affect it a little if I were to tune for it, but it shouldn't do much until then because it is just moving extra air through that isn't being utilized.

Still on the stock fuel system for a manual trans car.
Not planning on changing that until I've got a decent bottom end in the block. I do not want a window in the block. Only parts of the car that I actually care about. Block, head, and to a lesser degree the crank.

I have no idea if pics will end up being taken. As you can tell, my camera sucks balls. Probably end up with it on the hoist on monday anyways, so I'll try and remember to snap some pics then.

 

[Alcaid]

Any part number on that TD04?

 

[[486]]

Any part number on that TD04?

Looks like it was rebuilt and sandblasted at some point, very faint engraving on it and all I could really make out was the TD04
Internal gate, off a 2003-ish wrx

 

[hughesjasonk]

With the same supporting mods it would.

no it doesn't. A gt30 is going to push a different volume at 30 PSI then a gt20

this is why you have to look at the turbo island when you are determining power goal in relation to the displacement of your engine and your RPM range.

 

[Alcaid]

You then probably have the TD04L-13T-6cm, a 30lbs/min capable compressor wheel, but in a 1.9TDI compound the turbine is a little small, will be limiting it to about 25lbs/min, about 180-190whp

No wonder you don't feel more power:
1: the TD04L chokes at about 110-120whp with only 3psi
1: you need more fuel!

With the fuelling and map you have now (2200mbar max boost) adjust the TD04L up to 5.0psi, this way both turbos will reach their choking point at the same time instead of one or the other being the limiting factor

If you add more fuel later on, boost levels for each stage should be revised again, to get the full 180-190whp out of it, you probably need an external wastegate on the VNT15 to avvoid boost creep

 

[JFettig]

Its not faster because he is on the stock fuel system.
The setup should work OK up until a point but it needs some tuning work

 

[Enabled]

I distract myself from an otherwise rather empty life by tinkering with machines.
Hah sounds awful when you just out with it, huh?

I'm a tinkerer from birth (all my toys have been opened, taken apart, and put together; disassembled my father's lawn mower motor piece by piece at 10, put it back together and worked on first pull), so I understand this. Pretty much the best answer for this.

I hope my comment above wasn't taken as an offense to you, as it was intended purely as a question for my curiosity.

 

[[486]]

You then probably have the TD04L-13T-6cm, a 30lbs/min capable compressor wheel, but in a 1.9TDI compound the turbine is a little small, will be limiting it to about 25lbs/min, about 180-190whp

No wonder you don't feel more power:
1: the TD04L chokes at about 110-120whp with only 3psi
1: you need more fuel!

With the fuelling and map you have now (2200mbar max boost) adjust the TD04L up to 5.0psi, this way both turbos will reach their choking point at the same time instead of one or the other being the limiting factor

If you add more fuel later on, boost levels for each stage should be revised again, to get the full 180-190whp out of it, you probably need an external wastegate on the VNT15 to avvoid boost creep

I actually just tossed them on on friday after work, fixed the downpipe for less rattles against the steering rack and trans tunnel on saturday, and on sunday I shimmed the dogbone mount bushings with some mudflap rubber.

I'm probably gonna adjust the wastegate tonight along with putting a restrictor in the boost gauge line because it is rattling.

Probably not going to up the fuel any more yet. I've got the smoke map set to 17:1 across all the airflow ranges, and the torque limit map screwed with somewhat. Doesn't quite allow full fueling that is allowed on the smoke map, but I don't want to break my weak pistons/rods and take the block with them. I've heard on here that the ALH pistons are good for something like 120hp before they start getting too hot and cracking, then the rods are good for 170 or something before they buckle. Probably be next summer before I get too far into the engine, then I can drive the truck while it's apart. It does not fare well in the snow being DRW and 2wd. Nice rust free cab on it too...

I've planned on an external gate bolted on the EGR flange for a while, another reason I haven't upped the boost much, I don't think the VNT will be able to control itself around 4000 RPM. It'll be making boost with the vanes full open acting like a non gated fixed geometry turbo, then when the computer starts seeing 25 or whatever PSI I get to have limp mode, so I hear.

The turbine might be small, but the wastegate looks like it'll flow pretty well. Or is the turbine just not big enough to drive the compressor to its full potential?

I hope my comment above wasn't taken as an offense to you, as it was intended purely as a question for my curiosity.

Don't worry, it is very hard to offend me.

no it doesn't. A gt30 is going to push a different volume at 30 PSI then a gt20

this is why you have to look at the turbo island when you are determining power goal in relation to the displacement of your engine and your RPM range.

But the engine does not consume any more air as it is running the same RPMs and boost.

Yeah, I've done the calcs in depth for turbo sizing, at three different IATs, two different ambient temperatures, three different RPM ranges, and three different boost levels. Took three pages of paper and a lot of brain to figure out that my 7.3 wants a GT3582r or an hx35, just like everyone says it does.

This time I just said "**** it, looks a little bigger and not too big, I'll try it".

Its not faster because he is on the stock fuel system.
The setup should work OK up until a point but it needs some tuning work

Agreed, it's just tossed on there to get it driving again. It is my daily driver, after all.

 

[JFettig]

Your ALH will handle 200hp no problem if you don't do anything too stupid. 120hp is a standard Stage 2 tune.

 

[[486]]

Your ALH will handle 200hp no problem if you don't do anything too stupid. 120hp is a standard Stage 2 tune.

Well then.
I'm gonna screw with my torque limit map some more then. Got the time to flash it out before work. Go for 2450 mbar SVBL and 2400mbar limit on the map with atmospheric pressure?

My pyro has been above 1100 degrees F a total of three times in the 8 months I've been messing with the car. I don't abuse it terribly, I'm just cautious in remapping.

 

[Enabled]

Well then.
I'm gonna screw with my torque limit map some more then. Got the time to flash it out before work. Go for 2450 mbar SVBL and 2400mbar limit on the map with atmospheric pressure?

My pyro has been above 1100 degrees F a total of three times in the 8 months I've been messing with the car. I don't abuse it terribly, I'm just cautious in remapping.

I'll PM you with some recommendations.

 

[flee]

boost doesn't equal volume.

With the same supporting mods it would

no it doesn't. A gt30 is going to push a different volume at 30 PSI then a gt20
this is why you have to look at the turbo island when you are determining power goal in relation to the displacement of your engine and your RPM range.

(at the risk of highjacking [486]'s thread)
You made a general statement that isn't correct.
I responded generally as well.
A given psi will move a given volume regardless of source.
Your second statement is incorrect, too.
The gt30 is capable of moving more air at 30 psi but under the same conditions
if both are making 30psi they will move the same amount.

 

[Dirtracr95]

With the same supporting mods it would
(at the risk of highjacking [486]'s thread)
You made a general statement that isn't correct.
I responded generally as well.
A given psi will move a given volume regardless of source.
Your second statement is incorrect, too.
The gt30 is capable of moving more air at 30 psi but under the same conditions
if both are making 30psi they will move the same amount.

The larger turbo would be more efficient so while the volume might be the same the density will not.

 

[[486]]

The larger turbo would be more efficient so while the volume might be the same the density will not.

Huh odd thought I made a post already on this.

I had forgotten all about the temperature factor.

 

[Alcaid]

The turbine might be small, but the wastegate looks like it'll flow pretty well. Or is the turbine just not big enough to drive the compressor to its full potential?

You need a higher turbine choke flow to get to the TD04L compressor limit without EMP being an issue but it doesn't matter much as by then the VNT15 would be choking it anyway unless you do a sequential setup and fully bypass the VNT15 on both turbine and compressor side. You actually made a pretty decent compound setup just by chance

Since you are running very low RPMs on the TD04L a bigger turbine wheel would be more optimal as turbine efficiency would have been higher, but no worries, it'll work fine as it is

 

[[486]]

You need a higher turbine choke flow to get to the TD04L compressor limit without EMP being an issue but it doesn't matter much as by then the VNT15 would be choking it anyway unless you do a sequential setup and fully bypass the VNT15 on both turbine and compressor side. You actually made a pretty decent compound setup just by chance

Since you are running very low RPMs on the TD04L a bigger turbine wheel would be more optimal as turbine efficiency would have been higher, but no worries, it'll work fine as it is

Heh, sequential's a bit out there for me. Would need a different turbine housing on the VNT-15 anyways as I've got the funky one with an exhaust manifold attached to it.

Adjusted the wastegate actuator a bit (three full turns on the linkage) and made almost no difference. Probably gonna have to add some springs to it to get a bit more tension. Only makes 4 PSI.

Got a CEL now, but it is just saying that all 4 GPs are dead now. it's the "relay" that's the issue.

 

[jsf350]

the egt should be lower with the compounds...

more fueling will be helpful

there is a equation to figure out/ make sure the turbos are running a correct ratio for efficient running

wastgateing at 3 psi is to low... what is total boost?

 

[[486]]

Adjusted the actuator as far as it goes and it gave me 4 psi before it opens. Gonna toss some extra springs on it to give it some more scoot to hold the poot chute shut a little longer.

the egt should be lower with the compounds...

more fueling will be helpful

there is a equation to figure out/ make sure the turbos are running a correct ratio for efficient running

wastgateing at 3 psi is to low... what is total boost?

Still not screwing with the fueling too much. Still a tiny little 10mm pump along with cute little stock injectors. More fuel will start getting things hot for not much more power. Mostly just making the GP codes go away for good between the normal work/school cycle. Oh and DATSUN. That thing gets some attention, too. Fixed the choke on the carb today. Remember, this is only a project that holds some of my rapidly shifting attention. Last month I had a metal shaper all apart and was shimming and scraping the ram ways into better alignment.

 

[Enabled]

You're putting 50mg of fuel at WOT at least, no? Also make sure you edit both Smoke Limiter maps up, although on my car it's the 13x16 (the one with 850, 851, 852, 853 mg/st defined) that seems to be used. The 10x16 doesn't seem to be doing much in my car.

 

[jsf350]

yes you need the small turbo wastegate to open way later... 10-15 psi at least...
you get your power by compounding the air pressure...

right now your pretty much just running off of the larger turbo

 

[jsf350]

with more fuel and proper boost you wont run any hotter

 

[[486]]

You're putting 50mg of fuel at WOT at least, no? Also make sure you edit both Smoke Limiter maps up, although on my car it's the 13x16 (the one with 850, 851, 852, 853 mg/st defined) that seems to be used. The 10x16 doesn't seem to be doing much in my car.

I was kind of wondering about those maps. I had edited the axis' so that it would go up to 1000 with the three columns that didn't do anything, but reverted it because I didn't know how it'd like the two maps not lining up.
I suppose they don't line up anyways, with those three columns having higher airflows anyways.

right now your pretty much just running off of the larger turbo

Gauges say the exact opposite, friend.
Except if you mean at cruise, running along at 55 the td04 makes around 2-3lbs which goes a long way toward the request pressure, so the VNT's vanes are pretty open judging by the exhaust sound.

with more fuel and proper boost you wont run any hotter

Injection duration means nothing, eh?

 

[Enabled]

I was kind of wondering about those maps. I had edited the axis' so that it would go up to 1000 with the three columns that didn't do anything, but reverted it because I didn't know how it'd like the two maps not lining up.
I suppose they don't line up anyways, with those three columns having higher airflows anyways.

Well when I initially had edited only the 10x16, and left the larger one stock. The smoke limiter values in VCDS logging were allowing only stock values, up to like 38mg. Basically no extra fuel at all. When I changed them in the "Smoke Limiter 2" they finally went up in logging.


My MAF values go up to 1200mg/st of air (EGR off) with 17psi of boost, so I changed the X axis values in the 13x16 map to: 850, 890, 930, 1100. You SHOULD raise the X axis values for better control because you have much more airflow that needs to be defined. Especially with EGR off.

I copied my modified Z values the same from the 850 column (on Smoke Limiter, and Smoke Limiter 2 maps) across the 890, 930, 1100 definitions as well.


Here's what worked for me best, (*tuned myself)