sharing responsibility for broken timing belt?

paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
Just take it to Growler (Millersport) or Jon Hamilton (Marysville) and get it fixed right. Cheaper than a year of car payments for a new car.

I would like to point out that your old shop has been riding your cash cow pretty hard. 5k oil changes when it should be 10k. 505.01 oil when your car doesn't need this special spec oil. I also bet they've been changing the filters early.
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
...your old shop has been riding your cash cow pretty hard. 5k oil changes when it should be 10k.
You missed the part about the shop wanting it changed at 3k...

I guess more frequent oil changes mean you're taking better care of the car... in their mind...

Y.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
1. You don't have to use fully synthetic in an ALH and it doesn't have to be 5/40
In the US, all ALH cars (except maybe 1998 New Beetles, and if so, they put out a TSB to update the manual for those to match, along with A3 and B4 cars) require a synthetic 5W40.

B4 TDIs did originally allow 15W40 dino oil, on a 5000 mile OCI. But, that aforementioned TSB changed that to prohibit that, and require 10k OCIs on synthetic 5W40. (Actually, I think the first TSB said 5W30, and there wasn't a suitable 5W30 at the time, so they put out another to say 5W40.)

and 2. I think the responsibility of anyones car is really theirs, I don't think it's right to rely on any garage to keep you up to date. You buy a car, you look after the car, it's your car.

Personally I don't rely on service records or the honesty of a previous owner, I get a new car, it gets a timing belt first then filters and oil. It's a hard lesson but I think it's the best way to go.
If you actually made an agreement with a shop for total maintenance, rather than the shop recommending individual services and paying for those individual services, then that would be the exception.
 

halocline

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Location
San Antonio
TDI
04 Jetta Wagon
Definitely not the shop's fault, sorry to the OP! Maybe this could be a hard-earned lesson that ignorance is not always bliss. It would have been nice if the shop had said, "oh by the way your timing belt is due," but it's not their responsibility to do so.

Here's an interesting point though, let's say that the OP had used a dealer and the dealer had replaced the TB at 100K, and it had still broken at 150K. What would the dealer do? Nothing......their work is warranted for 12K miles.

Another interesting point is what happens with the independent mechanic who changes timing belts correctly, and then one still fails long before the next one is due? It's the part that's at fault. Does any TB manufacturer warranty their parts for 100K miles, including protection for expensive engine damage as a result of their part failing? Nope....not that I know of anyhow. Yet occasionally one will fail, it's just bad luck. I bet there are some high quality mechanics that might, out of their own generosity, help a customer in that situation with a discount, but they are by no means required to do so.

Personally, if the price of a TB kit installed by a qualified mechanic went up $5-$10 to include some 'insurance' against the very occasional failure, I'd gladly pay it. Let's say that it's on average $2500 to fix the damage of a broken TB, and they fail prematurely one in 250 times (which is a lot IMO) that $10 would conceivably cover it.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Yeah, there's always the risk that a failure happens due to a bad part but well beyond "warranty."

I changed my belt last spring (2012) and all under-cover components, but there's always the chance that something breaks even though it was done correctly and I check it on oil change intervals. Still, something can go wrong between those intervals that I don't detect before damage occurs.

It's a mechanical thing and mechanical things occasionally break even when everything is done "by the book" because there are latent defects that do occasionally occur. There's no real defense against that other than careful periodic inspection and hoping you catch it before the latent defect turns into a manifested failure.
 

orlando

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Location
Columbus Ohio USA
TDI
2013 JSW & 2015 Golf (Formerly: 2000 JSW)
** Final Update on OP and Post #12 **

I'm reluctant to keep this thread alive any longer but need to update it one last time to give the shop a lot of credit. I'll also use the opportunity to correct a couple of mistaken assumptions.

The first correction may be trivial but will give you a more accurate view of what kind of owner and customer I am, for better or worse. I read the manual cover-to-cover when the car was new and then put it away (except when the "check engine" light came on) for the first 40K miles while the dealer provided regular maintenance. From 40-75K I had it out all the time, showing it to various shops at every oil change. "Make sure you use this kind of oil!" "Please do everything on this list!" We gradually learned that the independent shops down the street and the national chains aren't really qualified to work on diesels even for basic maintenance. Only after we started going to this VW shop and felt confident that they were taking good care of the car did I once again stop consulting the manual regularly. Though overlooking the timing belt is the costlier mistake, I'm even more embarrassed about getting the mileage interval wrong for oil changes--I at least have to know how often to schedule appointments and take the car to the shop and I'm red-faced about not having this right.

The other mistaken assumption is that we never had a conversation with the VW shop about our expectations and their service. We did have such conversations, more than once, especially at first. I was as open with them as I have been in this forum about how little I know about cars, and we let them know we wanted someone to give the car all the service it needed to keep it safe and prolong its life; they in turn assured us they know these cars inside out, have been servicing them for decades with only ASE mechanics including a VW-trained TDI specialist, and so we could trust them to keep the TDI well-maintained.

I love that people on this forum are so passionately involved with their cars, but also, the more I think about it, I make no apologies for trusting specialists with the routine maintenance of mine. We trust a cardiologist to know what drug is needed and how often--and even to recommend a timely operation to prevent a heart attack--without bothering to verify independently how the drug should be administered or which conditions call for such an operation. We trust a school teacher to know the best timing and method to teach our kids trigonometry without bothering to learn trigonometry or pedagogical theory ourselves. We only need to know the school calendar and the date of our next medical exam. Like auto mechanics, every profession has basic standards and responsibilities and each individual customer/patient/student doesn't need to have a conversation or written contract specifying what these professional standards are. For auto mechanics, this includes recommending preventive maintenance based on a car's mileage, a basic professional responsibility. The General Manager at our VW shop said yesterday that he agrees and aspires to give every customer mileage-appropriate service and safety recommendations even on a first visit when the shop knows nothing about the car's history. He commented that a surprisingly large number of customers ignore or defer these service recommendations, but he acknowledged we have never been such a customer and have always acted on the shop's recommendations.

Though we don't like overpaying for car care, safety, longevity, and convenience are all more important for us than cost. Some people have commented that you get what you pay for, implying I guess that by saving money at an independent shop we sacrificed the better service of a dealer. But in a thread from a few years ago one member described this shop as being as arrogant and expensive as the dealer, and yesterday I talked on the phone with another local TDIClub member interested in buying the car--he said he knows this shop well and thinks it's more expensive than the dealer. (You tell me: is $1200-1300 as much as, or more than, dealers' current prices for a timing belt change?) I suppose our situation does show you get what you pay for but in the opposite way than most of us expected: we've been paying top dollar for car care and so now the shop is standing behind its work and taking responsibility for its lapses.

The shop's General Manager and co-owner is taking a position similar to fnj2 and nexus665, who had the courage to take a minority view. He called me yesterday to say he had just reviewed all of our service records in their system and was alarmed to see they had missed not only the timing belt but also some other safety warnings. He's relieved the outcome wasn't worse, i.e. that no one was injured. Because they "dropped the ball" and "feel a little bit of responsibility," they would like us now to pay only what we would have paid to change the timing belt if they had reminded us in time. In other words, our repair cost just dropped from $4150 to $1400. They will absorb all the costs of fixing or replacing the cylinder head and whatever else is needed for a complete rebuild with warranty (pistons, lifters, rollers, water pump, serpentine belt, EGR valve, cleaned intake manifold--I'm certainly forgetting and misremembering things). Sometimes you get what you pay for.

I am passionate about my own specialization and sometimes get befuddled and exasperated by some students' lack of basic knowledge or skills or concern for the subject, so it was good for me to be on the opposite end of such a relationship in this thread. With only once exception, I appreciated all of the posts, including those taking me to task (because I deserved it). The exception of course was the post with the misogynistic slur, not appropriate in any kind of forum. (I just looked back and can't find it now. Did the admin delete it? If so, good!)

Though I'm signing off from this thread, it looks like we'll still be TDI owners so I'll be lurking in other threads and look forward to running into some of you. This is a great community--I just wish I'd discovered it 10 years ago.

With apologies for the logorrhea,

Orlando
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Good post, Orlando. Glad things are working out, although some will be sure to tell you that you're overpaying at $1450.
Welcome to tdiclub. You have a very good way of expressing yourself and that is always welcome here.
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
Sounds like a fair outcome, regardless of exactly where liability may rest. Kudos to the shop.

I once rebuilt an engine, then shortly after the owner called me up saying engine was making noise. I checked it out and the noise was BAD. Rod bearing went out and ate the crankshaft. Called the owner and stated I would rebuild it again, no cost. Halfway through that process, the owner offered to pay for half of it, even though not obligated in any way.

Goodwill in both directions.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Stand by my comments!

However, I am exceptionally glad things are working out for you, Orlando!
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
When I get a new 'customer', one of the first things I do is inspect the timing belt, not only for visual appearance, but for the date code on the tensioner. That would have alerted the garage/owner to its age. I did a TB on a B4 last year that still had its original tensioner from 1995, despite the dealer and then an independent "VW" garage both changing the belt since the car had 137K on it. It did have a new belt at least.

$4150 for a head replacement? Damn, I need to start charging more.

If the $1,400 is backed up by a warranty AND OEM components are used (No Prothe), then I might consider it....might. I agree with others, the 3K OCI is way too low and tells me the garage is either ignorant of TDI's in general or looking to make a bunch of money fast, neither look good from where I'm sitting.
 

Ian F

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2002
Location
Croydon, PA
TDI
Jetta Wagon, 2003, Indigo Blue
Entitlement generation? Sheesh. YES the shop should have said something but they didn't. Move on.

The OWNER didn't get the owners manual out and READ it until 150K + in the cars life!!! Who's' negligent in this situation?

I have clients that don't listen. They aren't clients any longer.

As far as legality? There is nothing there, not even close.

O.P. I think you learned a valuable lesson. It certainly won't happen again. Fix the car and keep driving it. A couple grand is easier than 5 years of car payments.
I tend to agree. I was on this site learning as much about TDI's as I could before I even ordered my car.
 

Herm TDI

Vendor
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
TDI
2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
You would not believe the number of owners that I've had in my garage that have NEVER looked at (let alone read) the owner's manual. It boggles my mind that someone would shell out thousands of hard earned dollars to buy a car and then neglect it. When the car does malfunction then it gets the owner's attention.
The first card they play is "It must be someone else's fault ,not mine, there is no way this could be my (the owner's) fault."
 
Last edited:

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Not sure why the thread was even started in the first place before finding out the outcome.
Frankly, I would be embarrased to even approach the shop with this sort of a request much less tell others about it. Maintainance (or lack of it) is my choice and responsiblilty. Guess that's why there are maintainance included leases.
I'm glad it's sort of working out for the OP since they have been overpaying for various work done, but I know myself I always have an uneasy feeling/lack of confidence in newly done major work such as this-whether I have done it myself or had an expert do it. Never quite the same as before it failed in the back of your mind.
 
Last edited:

Nickster60

Active member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Location
Palmetto Fl
TDI
2003 beetle 5 speed
As car guys we expect everyone to as knowledgable as we are when it comes to cars. But unfortunately most car owners are more interested with stereo and navigation system then what is under the hood. But as a business man (not automotive)it is in your best interest to look out for customer. They hire you because they can't do the work themself and they put there trust in you. Having been in business for 20 years you learn it is easier to keep the customers you have then try to find new ones. In today's day and age a bad reputation can spread pretty fast on the Internet.
 

fnj2

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 1999
Location
Wellfleet, Massachusetts, USA
Well said, Nickster. Running a business is hard enough already without running off customers. Having been one, I have the greatest respect for sole proprietors and extra-small businesses. I make an extra effort not to abuse them in my own dealings, and it has paid off big time, because I have met some wonderful people who in turn go out of their way for me.

My hat is completely off to this business. I believe they made a choice they didn't have to, but which will serve them well.
 

Nickster60

Active member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Location
Palmetto Fl
TDI
2003 beetle 5 speed
The customer will have to bring his TDI somewhere to be fixed. And this will renew his confidence in this shop and the shop owner will recoup is losses down the road. I am guessing this a case of one of his employees probably dropped the ball and he was left to catch it.
 
Top