Settlement Question???

[thesearcherman]

It is no secret that thousands of TDI owners covered under this settlement have performed what is know as a "tune" on their cars. And thousands of others have removed key emission components from their affected TDI.
.
Why should anyone who removed parts from or modified their emissions system get a settlement? Haven't they done the same thing as VW? Cheated on their emissions?

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

Those people are such an insignificant percentage of the total customer pool that they're not even worth talking about (in the grand scheme of thing). That is why they aren't being addressed. Well under 1% of CR TDIs are going to be in that boat.

Now from an ethical standpoint...I do find it thoroughly amusing...in a 'Murican kind of way...that people who went out and essentially one-upped what VW engineers did...will be benefitting from this.

 

[thesearcherman]

Those people are such an insignificant percentage of the total customer pool that they're not even worth talking about (in the grand scheme of thing). That is why they aren't being addressed. Well under 1% of CR TDIs are going to be in that boat.
Now from an ethical standpoint...I do find it thoroughly amusing...in a 'Murican kind of way...that people who went out and essentially one-upped what VW engineers did...will be benefitting from this.

I can assure you that more than 4850 (1%) people have modified or removed their emission equipment. But neither of us has any proof.

 

[stoner-tdi]

Most of the trade in modders will switch back to stock and no one will know

Many are just using this as an excuse to get out of a car and get some cash should they get it?

I truly think the number of people who really care and people who don't will run about 50/50

 

[GetMore]

They did not cheat on their emissions, nor have they lied regarding emissions. They are[/] polluting more than even the VW levels, but they have not certified anything on their cars, whereas VW did. Semantics, perhaps.

You are also asking: Why should someone that is willing to modify their car to pollute more than allowable be able to "profit" by selling their car back? You have to realize that they are getting the same payout as a person that has not modified their car, so any money spend doing so is lost. That would be roughly $3,000. Now, consider that they are losing a car that got better economy, more power, and more fun than the stock car. They have to give that up, merely because VW got caught lying.
Or they can tell VW to leave them alone and keep their car just the way it is, without taking a dime. I am willing to bet half of the people that have deleted the DPF will not turn their car in, unless there is some kind of problem with the car.

 

[Diesl]

I think with a username like that you must make it your mission in life to hunt them down and turn them in, searcherman.
Otherwise every single one of them will cash in on the fix, then turn around and reflash their tune, and then, oh the horror, sell the extra hardware on the black market, I mean, eBay.

 

[325_Guy]

Make sure to report them all to the EPA.

Afterwards, make sure everyone's front yards are in spec as well.

?

 

[billmc2010TDI]

?? Prospects for VW trade-in offer vs buyback vehicles

Assuming final approval of the buyback or modification plan, does anyone have info, thoughts, etc. on VW incentives to trade in affected vehicles for new or used VWs or Audis?

Happy 4th Everyone,
Bill

 

[South Coast Guy]

Assuming final approval of the buyback or modification plan, does anyone have info, thoughts, etc. on VW incentives to trade in affected vehicles for new or used VWs or Audis?

Happy 4th Everyone,
Bill

I think that dealers will want you to buy a car from them so they may offer additional incentives if you purchase either new or used from their inventory. Since many VW dealers also sell Audis, I will be looking for a deal on a CPO A6.

 

[billmc2010TDI]

?? Prospects for VW trade-in offer vs buyback vehicles

Thanks "Neighbor" (I'm in Orleans; love Mattapoisett/Marion too).

Your thoughts on incentives are mine as well. Would your A6 be a wagon? Quattro version? I read a Consumer Reports review that said the 2016 VW Golf family was most-recommended of all vehicle families. A slightly used one would be better value. Obviously w/o the Audi extras, but the Jetta Sportswagen has proven great for my Golden Retriever plus rear luggage space. No sign of Golf Allroad version in US - yet!

 

[turbobrick240]

It is no secret that thousands of TDI owners covered under this settlement have performed what is know as a "tune" on their cars. And thousands of others have removed key emission components from their affected TDI.
.
Why should anyone who removed parts from or modified their emissions system get a settlement? Haven't they done the same thing as VW? Cheated on their emissions?

So you don't think it's a good idea to get those modified cars off the road? I would worry less about what others are getting, and focus on your own situation.

 

[yehaman]

I think that dealers will want you to buy a car from them so they may offer additional incentives if you purchase either new or used from their inventory. Since many VW dealers also sell Audis, I will be looking for a deal on a CPO A6.

You and I both, hope we don't end up going for the same

 

[rivercanoe]

Many states, including mine, don't perform emission checks on diesels.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Not 100% sure ~~ but

Don't think you can get a buy back or MOD money if the affected car is "TUNED."

But one can sell it to anyone ~~ who wishes to own it.

One thing I believe. ~~ gov WANTS 'em off the road or crushed

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Many states, including mine, don't perform emission checks on diesels.

And therein lies the loophole that people with modified cars take advantage of. They are cheating, and they're violating Federal emissions laws. But because states either don't test emissions at all or have basic tests like checking readiness in the ECU, folks with modified cars have been able to drive for years. Modified cars pollute more than unmodified ones, whether all emissions hardware is in place or not.

 

[DanB36]

Don't think you can get a buy back or MOD money if the affected car is "TUNED."

Unless you can point to a section of the FTC or DOJ's consent decree excluding modified cars, I'd have to say you're wrong here. An eligible vehicle for the purposes of both of those documents is a 2-liter TDI that's "operable", meaning that it drives under its own power. I've read through both documents, and I don't remember seeing anything about modifications.

 

[South Coast Guy]

I can assure you that more than 4850 (1%) people have modified or removed their emission equipment. But neither of us has any proof.

Look at it this way; if 4,850 owners have "tuned" their car they have spent around $10,000,000. I think that would make diesel owners the single biggest class user of tuners. More likely is that 2,000 diesel owners have "tuned" their cars".

 

[South Coast Guy]

Unless you can point to a section of the FTC or DOJ's consent decree excluding modified cars, I'd have to say you're wrong here. An eligible vehicle for the purposes of both of those documents is a 2-liter TDI that's "operable", meaning that it drives under its own power. I've read through both documents, and I don't remember seeing anything about modifications.

Then the key is the definition of "operable". A car that doesn't meet a state's emission requirements is not "operable".

 

[knownikko]

Then the key is the definition of "operable". A car that doesn't meet a state's emission requirements is not "operable".

You're greatly over estimating the amount of effort VW is going to put into this. If your car starts, has a clean title, and isn't obviously missing a bunch of parts, you're done. You think they're going to take every one of them back to the shop and check the ECU for non-factory tunes? Not a chance.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

You're greatly over estimating the amount of effort VW is going to put into this. If your car starts, has a clean title, and isn't obviously missing a bunch of parts, you're done. You think they're going to take every one of them back to the shop and check the ECU for non-factory tunes? Not a chance.

I'm not sure that's a chance I'd be willing to take.

 

[turbobrick240]

Well there are quite a few owners of tuned/modified cars that plan to take the buyback. So we'll know soon enough how picky they're going to be. My feeling is they probably won't care.

 

[autdi]

You're greatly over estimating the amount of effort VW is going to put into this. If your car starts, has a clean title, and isn't obviously missing a bunch of parts, you're done. You think they're going to take every one of them back to the shop and check the ECU for non-factory tunes? Not a chance.

The only conditions stipulated in the settlement doc was it moves under its own power, and the title branding conditions that exclude cars from a couple time frames.

If they wanted complete cars, they should have said so, there is no other definition of a car, so the thing could be a flintstonemobile, wood bench seat, etc, the frame with the necessary VIN, and the motor which moves on the lot. If they wanted something else, they should have specified it. Given every single panel on the car could be dented beyond repair, how is that really any different? Heck, the tires don't even need to hold air, it can move, not far, but it moves under its own power even on flats.

 

[DanB36]

Then the key is the definition of "operable". A car that doesn't meet a state's emission requirements is not "operable".

The settlement documents define "operable", and the definition is as I described--there's no reference to meeting any emission requirements.

 

[Rico567]

The settlement documents define "operable", and the definition is as I described--there's no reference to meeting any emission requirements.

Yes, and let's not forget that the goal as stated by the court for this settlement is to get the affected vehicles off the road. bunches of cars being disqualified for buyback because they're modifed is doing exactly the opposite. So: there's nothing either in the language (as stated in the quote above) or in the motivations of the court, the regulatory agencies, or VW to do anything whatever about this. Case closed.

 

[autdi]

The settlement documents define "operable", and the definition is as I described--there's no reference to meeting any emission requirements.

Although the clean air act does impact sellers of emissions modified vehicles. 42 USC 7522 (a) (3) (A) or (B) could be problematic. Having one, not much in the law to address that, but selling it, that's clearly in there as a prohibited act.

 

[uncle fishhead]

The primary change that occurs in tuning is that the possible level of turbo boost pressure is increased and fueling is adjusted to take advantage of the increased amount of air.

With mild levels of tuning, the engine continues to run with sufficient air to burn all the fuel (i.e., we don't smoke like an F-250 with 8" stacks behind the driver).

While a 170 HP Golf probably pollutes a tiny bit more than a 140 HP Golf when the accelerator is floored, I'd venture that it emits the same during almost all operational scenarios. If someone has empirical data to contrary, I'd be happy to hear it.

There are costs to tuned vehicles (higher boost pressure had a habit of blowing off some of the pressurized plumbing on the intake of my Audi S4). But I challenge the assertion that tuned vehicles are significant polluters (unless of course VW starts them out that way).

Removing the DPF is a different case.

 

[jims2321]

There are two things that I believe will pretty much preclude people not selling or getting their TDI's fixed.

1. States will have a master VIN list. Any car on that list after 2019 that has not been "fixed" documented by VW, or non compliant (not fixable) will most likely not get their tags renewed.

2. Insurance companies will not insure them more than likely after 2019, without some rider that includes them being registered.

I would not be surprised if Insurance companies start jacking rates up for the GEN 1 TDI's because the settlement when finalize give a legally recognize minimum value for the car that insurance companies will have to pay in the event of the car being totalled.

One way or the other the Gov't will get a majority of them off the road by 2019.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Timing advance and increased fueling at low revs are big components of tuning TDIs for better performance. Both dramatically increase NOx levels. CR cars are also purposely over-fueled at light loads when stock to help keep exhaust temperatures hot and operate the emissions system. When fueling is reduced to improve efficiency and reduce regen frequency emissions increase. In a nutshell these are some of the things VW did when the ECU was in cheat mode. So you have empirical emissions data from that.

I've never heard of an insurance company refusing to insure a car except perhaps when cars were part of a mandatory buyback and were to be destroyed. This isn't a mandatory buyback...yet. And we don't know if the cars will be destroyed.

 

[Diesl]

The only conditions stipulated in the settlement doc was it moves under its own power, and the title branding conditions that exclude cars from a couple time frames.

If they wanted complete cars, they should have said so, there is no other definition of a car, so the thing could be a flintstonemobile, wood bench seat, etc, the frame with the necessary VIN, and the motor which moves on the lot. If they wanted something else, they should have specified it. Given every single panel on the car could be dented beyond repair, how is that really any different? Heck, the tires don't even need to hold air, it can move, not far, but it moves under its own power even on flats.

I've heard of at least one person who successfully sold their car to the junker without wheels; the junker just dragged it off the bricks and up onto the platform. So I don't think wheels or tires are required. Just bring some bricks when you drive it to the dealer lot.

 

[South Coast Guy]

You're greatly over estimating the amount of effort VW is going to put into this. If your car starts, has a clean title, and isn't obviously missing a bunch of parts, you're done. You think they're going to take every one of them back to the shop and check the ECU for non-factory tunes? Not a chance.

I don't think that VW is going to wreck thousands of cars. Some of them will get the emissions "fix" and be resold for some price. These new owners might be very unhappy when they discover emissions equipment had been removed by the previous owner and VW never replaced it.

And yes, I can easily see a dealer hooking up VCDS to check for errors or mods.