Self-sufficient biodiesel co-ops. What does it take?

[strretch]

I've been thinking a lot today about local biodiesel co-ops and how they work. We all know that there are a few different ways of getting hold of biodiesel:

(1) Buy it from a pump at a station.
(2) Buy it in bulk from a distributor.
(3) Get the supplies and make it yourself.

What are the pros and cons of each of these?
Item (1):
Pros are: Convenient if you live near the pump. Reliable source of well-made biodiesel.
Cons are: Pumps are few and far between. Prices are high compared to dino diesel or self-production.
Item (2):
Pros are: Convenient, since you're pumping from your own yard. You cut out the middle man.
Cons are: You have to have a large tank before some distributors want to return your phone calls.
Item (3):
Pros are: Cheap if you can find decent WVO or SVO at a good price (or free).
Cons are: You have to invest the time and money in equipment and supplies and mess around with nasty chemicals.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that due to lack of competition/demand, there is a lot of price gouging going on in biodiesel production, since people seem to pay what they are charged. Besides that, the amateur scientist in me really wants to get my hands dirty on the weekends and try my hand at making the stuff, even though I have no experience at it. So, Item (3) is looking more appealing to me.

Here's my question: What if there were a co-op based on production and not investment in a distributor?
The co-op wouldn't have to be large. A few people could share the costs/labor involved in the production of a 55-gal tank, for example. Then they could grow from there if need be. What I don't know is: How much time and money and manpower does it take to produce a 55-gal. drum of biodiesel?

One of the reasons I was thinking about this is that I noticed a flyer from a student club at U. Colorado Boulder a few weeks ago while visiting there, where they make biodiesel from the fryer oil at the campus grill. If students and faculty are willing to get together to do this sort of thing on the weekend, why couldn't several locals?

Okay. Questions? Comments? Flames?

-Brian

 

[tongsli]

Count me in.

Lito

 

[alex wetmore]

Originally posted by strretch:
Here's my question: What if there were a co-op based on production and not investment in a distributor?
The co-op wouldn't have to be large. A few people could share the costs/labor involved in the production of a 55-gal tank, for example. Then they could grow from there if need be. What I don't know is: How much time and money and manpower does it take to produce a 55-gal. drum of biodiesel?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For small scale production you can do it quite cheaply. Commercial biodiesel is more expensive because getting used oil is more expensive when you need to collect from many places (vs one or two) or you have to purchase virgin oil. Production costs are more expensive because you need to wash the biodiesel, have the equipment to produce much larger batches, and have to get ASTM certified.

Doing 50 gallon batches weekly seems like it would work for 5-10 people depending on usage. At 10,000 miles of driving per year that is 250 gallons. 50 batches a year could sustain that for 10 members if they are willing to give up their weekends.

alex

 

[bigrichard]

Brian-

Excellent idea!

To make 55 gallons, plan on most of the day. It is strongly dependant on the quality of the used oil and, in particular, its water content. I have been routinely brewing 25 gallons every weekend to keep my TDI and 300 TD Mercedes going. I brew in my garage.

Just need a secure place with a source of water for clean up. I'll try to post some pictures of my brewing equipment just to give you some ideas.

Of course, co-op members would be brewing product for their fuel oil furnaces, generators, tractors, or other off road equipment!

Keep me posted.

 

[strretch]

Richard and Alex, thanks for the encouragement! Here is the way I envisioned this co-op working:

Suppose we have 5 people, and one of them has a large back yard, say, to commit to brewing equipment. All 5 people would have access to the equipment whenever they want. The 5 would pool resources to buy up the necessary equipment and supplies for the first several batches. The host would receive a significant discount, say 25-50%, on the initial investment, especially on equipment. After the initial investment, the 5 would spend the next several weekends brewing batches together, simply for the education and to make sure everyone knows how to do it on their own or in pairs.

After the education period, each person would sign up for a weekend or set of weekends in the future when they'd be available to make a batch. Since there are 5, I would assume that one would be responsible for making a batch a little less often than monthly on average, or, say, 10 times a year. As more people join the co-op, it would be even less frequent, unless someone wants to donate the time.

Until the co-op becomes self-sufficient, as people join the co-op, in addition to money for supplies, they must donate several weekends in which to make batches as well as learn from the others in the group how to do it. After a certain period, I envision people being able to join the co-op without labor requirements but at a much higher investment rate, say 200% of what their fellow members pay. There must always be a core group of 5 or more people to do the labor.

No more than 10 or 15 people should be in the co-op.

Of course, dues would be taken in dollars per gallon, including the initial investment, but the price per gallon would come down as the equipment budget is made up. Every dollar in to the co-op has at least $0.05 reinvested in a future equipment budget. The rest should be used for supplies.

The ideas I've been having for this have been inspired by the concept of Community Supported Agriculture (CSA), which is a growing USDA-supported concept in which people donate money, and often time, to local farmers who grow crops only for the donees. The community reaps the benefits of a "good year" and gets fewer veggies/fruits when there are droughts and so on. But, the parallel to the biodiesel co-op is that the farmers ONLY produce crops for their donees and themselves. Supposedly the USDA provides benefits and incentives for CSA programs around the country. I wonder if they would have any interest in supporting (financially or otherwise) such a program in biodiesel.

-Brian

 

[Brioscooter]

Count me in, too! I think Strretch's game plan sounds fair and workable.
Baltimore must have hundreds of restaurants with fryers. We could find out which ones have good oil that is frequently changed so we have good sources.
I am planning to buy a hand pump with a filter and some 5 gallon plastic buckets to make collection easier.

 

[Brioscooter]

Okay, so there are 3 of us so far wanting to form a BD manufacturing co-op. Anyone else from the Baltimore area interested?
I found a source for plastic and steel drums here. Different sizes (15, 30, 50 gallon). Cheap, and formerly used for food service, so they won't need to be de-toxified.

 

[strretch]

Originally posted by Brioscooter:
Okay, so there are 3 of us so far wanting to form a BD manufacturing co-op. Anyone else from the Baltimore area interested?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A bigger issue (for me, anyway) is location, location, location. I live in an apartment complex, and while I have a little balcony that would hold a 55-gal. drum, I don't think my complex management would look too kindly on having 55 gallons of fuel located in or on the balcony of a third-floor apartment, regardless of how safe or environmentally friendly it is. Brioscooter, unless you have a back yard you're willing to donate, I think Lito is just going to have to convince his wife to let us use his back yard.

Kidding, JoAnn!

If no one wants to donate their back yard, I was trying to come up with alternative ideas. I work at UMBC and was thinking that it might be a possibility to organize a "club" of students and faculty who would manufacture the BD. If this is possible, it might also be possible to find some space on campus. I really have NO IDEA what this would take. If I were an environmental engineering major or prof, I might, but I'm not, so I don't. I do have an acquaintence who IS an environmental engineering grad student at College Park. Maybe such a thing could be organized there, and they could store supplies and drums?

I was hoping to keep this discussion more general than just Baltimore/DC, but I'm interested in hearing ideas from the locals about where we could actually do the production.

-Brian

 

[Brioscooter]

Okay, my lovely girl and I are buying a house in Baltimore city (off of Belair Rd., 3 miles inside of beltway) this week. We will be moving in over the next month.
I know nothing of the neighbors or their attitiudes/tolerance for BD brewing. We do have a large yard and a tiny garage, tho. Off-street parking, too.
IF the neighbors are cool with brewing there, or we could hide it well enough, we MAY be able to use my garage. It won't be used for much else, as our scooters and gardening tools will be stored in the basement for security reasons.
I will keep you guys posted on this as we get settled in and see what is what.

 

[Brioscooter]

And I will keep an eye open for cheaper sources of methanol, too.

 

[strretch]

It sounds as if we have some leads. I'll also look into cheaper sources of methanol. I'm not an expert, but my dad is a chemist and might have some ideas of scientific houses where it can be sourced in bulk.

I think that Lito, Brioscooter, bigrichard, and anyone else who is interested in this project/idea should get together and discuss the plans in the near future. I'm really serious about this!

Lito can attest to how fast I was talking and typing about it!

Drop me an email --- marks AT umbc DOT edu --- with some idea of schedules over the next couple weeks and suggested meeting places. Richard, I'm also really interested in your experience at this; it sounds like we have a lot to learn from you!

Best,

-Brian

 

[Brioscooter]

And my email is: tkarppi AT yahoo DOT com
I am interested in getting together with you guys soon, but my plate is very full this week. In early March, perhaps?

 

[erickuhn]

I live in Bel Air but work in Baltimore. I should have a source for free oil. I can verify it in the next day or two...

Eric

 

[Weisse Bora]

It is worth looking into use of ethanol instead of methanol. If you use a denaturant like methanol in the fermenting process, you can avoid the Treasury problems. Just make sure they know what you are doing, fill out an ATF Form 5110.74, receive their blessing and keep good records.

Of course distillation (high plate count, low efficiency columns are necessary for 95%)is a major PITA but heat recovery equipment has a needy receipent, namly the WVO.

If you make your own EtOH, you can use the waste glycerine in a second distillation to break the azeotrope and get 99% or better. From there, molecular sieves will polish the last speck of water from the EtOH.

Sure, it sounds like a PITA but EtOH is MUCH SAFER, its renewable, and its cheaper than the $3/gallon MeOH. I found tech grade MeOH for under $2/gallon but it had 1-3% WATER in it. No good.

 

[tongsli]

Yeah!

Whatever Weisse Bora said!!

Brioscooter, I'm close to BelAir Road and Moravia. You're probably up near Fullerton, but much closer than Taylorsville

Brian, good thing the better half doesn't read this forum

There's another person that I found through Tri-gas who has a diesel TDI but doesn't read here as often. I'll contact him tomorrow. He's in Bmore and am sure would be interested in getting involved. He was interested in the Bio-D co-op idea we had before Tevis decided to open up their station.

Lito

 

[tongsli]

Brian,

Did you see Skypup's post??

Diesel Forum Organization

There are a bunch of good links there.

Lito

[ February 25, 2003, 20:54: Message edited by: tongsli ]

 

[bigrichard]

I'm interested.

I currently use about a quarter of my 2 car garage for brewing. The only disadvantage is my location--southern Frederick county, Point of Rocks. So I'm not sure if that's going to work for people in the Baltimore area.

Excellent plastic 55 gallon barrels are available at the McCutcheon factory in Frederick @ $15/ea. They were used one time for food product. I have tons of 5 gallon plastic oil containers that are suitable for mixing the methoxide and storing fuel.

My big beef with the brewing has been what I pay for methanol. I've been getting it from a race fuel supplier for about $3.60 a gallon. I recover about 20% after brewing but I'd still like to find a source for about $2/gallon. The methanol is the big expense for supplies.

 

[strretch]

I didn't understand all that Weisse Bora said either. One thing I can clarify, though. The ATF Form 5110.74 he refers to is a form asking the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms permission to operate a fuel plant. If it's as easy as he makes it sound, I don't see a reason not to fill out the form and let them know what we're doing.

I'm guessing what he's saying is that one can use ethanol instead of methanol, and that it's a safer chemical. You just have to be careful that it's really pure if you do it. Am I right, Weisse? Please shed some light. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who didn't understand.

 

[bigrichard]

Brian, Lito

Yes, you can use ethanol but the reaction to create the esters is not as reliable (foolproof)as with methanol. Water can be found in poor quality methanol.

As for government forms--this could open up a very large can of worms. We need to discuss this in person.

I wasn't able to post pictures to the Forum but I did send some to Brian.

Richard

 

[strretch]

Richard, thanks for the clarification on ethanol vs. methanol.

I'm not too sure about government forms either. If the co-op is limited to a smallish handful of people, it may be best to stay under the radar. That said, I don't want to get into trouble, either. Let's discuss it further in person.

Pictures of bigrichard's biodiesel setup can be found at this link! Very impressive!

-Brian

 

[Brioscooter]

Brian's set-up is very cool!
I agree with bigrichard on the ATF/tax issue. If it is just a few people making a few dozen gallons each week for personal consumption, I doubt that ANY tax office is going to care.
Personally, I use one gallon of BD and 14 gallons of petrodiesel each week. I will run 80-90% BD in the summer if we can make it cheaper than the $3.00 we pay for it now, but that still is not a large amount to the IRS or ATF.
Now, if we were planning to sell it for others to use, and in larger quantities, they would be interested in setting up a tax collection framework from us.

 

[strretch]

Originally posted by Brioscooter:
Brian's set-up is very cool!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correction: That's bigrichard's setup, not mine.

The ATF thing isn't an IRS/tax issue necessarily, but a regulation issue of who is producing potentially explosive fuel around the country. Granted, it's not illegal to produce, and it's much much safer to produce and store than dinodiesel or gasoline, but I'm sure they're still interested in knowing who's making it, but primarily in large quantities. Nonetheless, I tend to agree that unless we start providing biodiesel to the masses (NOT my goal!), I don't think we need to wave big flags at the ATF.

However, you inadvertently brought up another interesting point. What are the tax benefits of being involved in a biodiesel co-op and using biodiesel? (I've never understood this, actually.) If there are benefits, would we then have to file with ATF? Are there zoning issues with brewing potentially nasty chemicals on a weekly basis? How stinky does it get, and would the neighbors mind?

-Brian

 

[Brioscooter]

I haven't brewed up any BD yet, but I would guess from my use of BD that the process wouldn't stink up the neighborhood much.
Ethanol and methanol smells awful, but disapates so fast that neighbors wouldn't get a whiff of it.
I think we don't have to worry about the ATF. BD is considered a combustable, not a flammable substance. The meth (or eth) is flammable and toxic, but there won't be need to store it for long.
I think all we have to worry about is the neighbors complaining about us running a business out of our house(s). Lots of chemical drums and cars coming and going would cause them to wonder, but a bit of discretion on our part should deflect any unwanted attention.

 

[Weisse Bora]

The major issue with the ATF is taxation of consumable ethanol, AKA moonshine. If you license a plant to produce fuel alcohol only, the record keeping is much easier. The ATF doesn't care about motor vehicle taxes on fuel, that is another part of the Treasury Dept.

A co-op will have environmental issues to address and having any quantity of methanol will be a problem. Its much more toxic than even gasoline in the eyes of the EPA and is a severe fire hazard.

Producing absolute ethanol on site is a viable option, even if it is just distillation of denatured feedstock. Any route you take, be sure to let the ATF know what you are doing and get approval before construction of a distillation setup. Once they know what you are doing and why, they will have no problems.

 

[runonbeer]

WB,
could you please explain (here or via email to me) how the glycerine can be used to breake the azeotrope. I thought you needed benzene or the like.

 

[Weisse Bora]

Easy. Glycerol is a triol...an alcohol with three hydroxyls (tir=3 + ol=hydroxyl). As such, glycerol has a stronger affinity for water than EtOH.

Alcohol = R-OH
Triol = R-3(OH)
Water = HOH

Benzene has a slight affinity for water from the resonance in the pi bonding but it has a very stong affinity for the Et, enhancing the distillation to favor the alcohol.

The feds will really like the glycerol method because if you get it too hot, it generates an irritating vapor...cannot remember what it is as my organic was years ago...anyhow, its self-denaturing...acrolein...That's the ticket!

[ February 27, 2003, 11:00: Message edited by: Weisse Bora ]

 

[mikeyworks]

Gang,

Brian, I love your ideas. They are great. I would love to adopt them here in Southern Maryland as I think we may be able to get this to work very easily down here. I will share this information with the gang down here.

Additionally, keep your fingers crossed for me as I may be coming the to the Baltimore area soon!!!

Mikey

 

[tongsli]

Mikey,

Can't wait for you to get here!

L

 

[strretch]

Folks,

Thanks for the chemistry lesson, bigrichard, WB and rob. I think I get it a little better now.

Mikey, thanks for the kind comments. Let me know what your SoMD folks think about how this would work.

I'm trying to get together those Marylanders on this thread who expressed an interest in my ideas. I sent out emails to all of you and got a few hits back. Pleast RSVP if you got my email. I'll make a more general announcement when we get a date/time pinned down, but I'm looking at the second or third weekend in March. If you're a lurking MDer, drop me an email and let me know if you have any interest.

Best,

Brian

Edit: I was thinking of meeting in a coffeeshop, but if there's sufficient interest, I'll come up with a better meeting location.

[ February 28, 2003, 07:55: Message edited by: strretch ]

 

[RC]

If we were on the other side of the Bridge I`d be on this in a flash with you guys.

But there is nothing that could get us to live on the Western Shore,

not even this.

Good luck. The prime location with inside space is the key I believe, that and a cheap source of methanol.