Scoping out a new TDI

[Nero Morg]

Hey there, so in my recent endeavors to find a newer tdi, I came across a few Q7 3 liters, and I'm trying to familiarize myself with them by reading. If there's one thing I'm good at, it's over thinking and over reading before doing any kind of large purchase. I'm no stranger to diesels or Tdi's but this is the first 3.0 I've considered looking at.

I'm prospectively looking at a 2013-2015, preferably Q7 for the space, and trying to find any big red flags that tell me to stay away. I get they'll still have the potential HPFP failures, chain guide, and DPF clogging/cracking, but overall, what's the "lifespan" of the engine/trans combo? It's something I hope to own for the next 8-10 years before I reluctantly move onto something else.

Thanks in advance!


Edit, dang you can really hear a pin drop here.
But due to the low fuel eco numbers the q5/7 has I decided against getting one.

 

[whatnxt]

What low numbers are your refering to? With my Q5 (same engine as the Q7), I'm getting 34-38, mostly highway driving. Around town, around 30. Much better than the gassers.

Reliability of the TDI 3.0 and the ZF 8 speed transmission is good. Remember that you would have some of the extended Dieselgate warranty available on a TDI. Maintenance on the Q7, due to the weight, is a little more as the brakes wear quicker. Overall, they are reliable when maintained.

 

[Nero Morg]

Based on Fuelly.com average fuel economy reported was about 22mpg
Being from WA, I'm sure you're familiar with the PDX area? I have to drive by the zoo to North Portland every day. Those few hills I can take at freeway speed in the morning, but at night it's stop and go for about 3 miles then 40mph up the hill.. Wonder how a Q7 would do...

 

[RexNICO]

Yes, much less activity here than the MKIV/ALH sub forums.

Is that because there are so many fewer of these on the road? Or because they have much fewer problems? Or because they’re not old enough to have as many problems?

Most likely just a simple #’s game given the number of years/models/quantity of ALH’s.

When it comes to the Q5/Q7 discussion, the Q5 will deliver better FE, but the Q7 has more interior space. I’m sure some will want to debate those comments.

In my ~1 year/13k miles we’ve seen a fairly steady 24-26 in our Q7. I had hoped for more and on long all highway trips we can see 28 or so. Not sure how representative that is of “normal”, but we’re okay with those #’s.

As for the used Q5/Q7 TDI market, it’s just as crazy as most others, but seems illogical as more and more are coming to the end of the extended miles/years if the “emissions warranty”.

Our needs have changed and as a result I wish we had bought a Q5, but not because I’m unhappy with the Q7, we just don’t need the space now.

My observations have been that most ALH owners don’t care for the higher purchase price or the reduction in FE.

Hope this helps

 

[Nero Morg]

I appreciate the insight, a Q series isn't 100% off the menu for me yet, but I am looking at other options. I am actually trying to find one that is still within its extended emissions warranty, and I know I'll be paying for it too.

 

[gforce1108]

I'm here for the "and other V6 TDIs"... I ruled out the SUVs when looking for a new daily and went with the A7. All the power, better MPGs, better looks and way better looking! (less issues than the "fixed" 2.0 CR cars too) There are a few other forums - none are really that active on the V6 TDIs. Personally, I think it's mainly been because the majority of owners didn't do their own maintenance and there was an excellent warranty. As more and more of these age and get into second/third owners, you'll see the V6 forums pick up more.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I don't have direct experience with the Q5 or Q7, but we do have a small cadre of customers who buy parts for them. One thing I would point out is that these are $50K ++ cars new. Regardless of what you pay for one, you're still maintaining an expensive car and it's going to cost a lot more than maintaining a MKIV or an NMS. I was reminded of this recently when refreshing suspension on my 335d. Parts were 3x what they cost for my Wagon.

 

[RexNICO]

Forgot to add, we are still in extended warranty and thus still have the DPF, etc. Not saying we'll remove that once out of warranty, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Under the warranty, we've had a few things replaced DPF, injector, transfer pump, etc. all while driving a newer Q3/5/7 loaner.

I'd like to move to a Q5 TDI, but not sure it's worth the time/money/effort to sell/buy just for a smaller SUV & better FE.

IBW brings up a good "on going upkeep" cost topic. And while it is absolutely true, there's also many more "good condition used OEM" parts availability. I was looking at a complete set of shocks/struts & springs off an S-Line as some parts to have for future use - they had no rust, (claimed) low mile and had OEM stickers reflecting a 2015 prod date. All for $300. That could be an anomaly, but car-part shows single corners for ~$125 each.

To me, the Touareg is the best balance of size between the 2 Q's and is built on a F/R platform, but oddly they seem to be pricier by comparison??

 

[Nero Morg]

The A7 has been on my radar, I definitely like the way the tail lights look, and the massive trunk is a huge plus.
Still on the hunt, it seems like a Q and an A7 are going for roughly the same price in my area, between $21k-$27k

 

[gforce1108]

I don't have direct experience with the Q5 or Q7, but we do have a small cadre of customers who buy parts for them. One thing I would point out is that these are $50K ++ cars new. Regardless of what you pay for one, you're still maintaining an expensive car and it's going to cost a lot more than maintaining a MKIV or an NMS. I was reminded of this recently when refreshing suspension on my 335d. Parts were 3x what they cost for my Wagon.

Sticker on my A7 new was just under $81K. Relatively loaded, but without the B&O stereo ($5900), 20" wheels ($500) and power soft closing doors ($500). I'm not sure what the Q7 ran, but the Q5 I test drove new was $50 or less. I'm assuming the A8 was even more than the A7? Too bad we never got the Panamera TDI!

The A7 has been on my radar, I definitely like the way the tail lights look, and the massive trunk is a huge plus.
Still on the hunt, it seems like a Q and an A7 are going for roughly the same price in my area, between $21k-$27k

If you go A6/A7, look for the more rare 2016. They are "facelift" cars with different front/rear lights and fascias.

 

[Nero Morg]

While that would be neat, I'm specifically looking for a 13-15 for the updated timing chained engine also I have my vcds cable that doesn't work on anything post 2015... Sad

 

[gforce1108]

While that would be neat, I'm specifically looking for a 13-15 for the updated timing chained engine also I have my vcds cable that doesn't work on anything post 2015... Sad

VCDS might still work on the 16s since they are the same chassis, just a facelift. I can't say for sure.

 

[Nero Morg]

VCDS might still work on the 16s since they are the same chassis, just a facelift. I can't say for sure.

I'm just going off of RossTech's website for the HexCan, I don't want to have to buy one of those vin-locked cables.

 

[oilhammer]

Whatever you buy, I'd keep your ALH so you have something to drive.

The Audi Q5 and Q7 are two completely different vehicles. They both have a similar version of the 3.0L V6 TDI as an option, but that's it. They are different engine codes.

The Q5 is based on the car (Audi A4) longitudinal platform. Same ZF transmission, same Torsen type integral AWD, same 8-link front suspension, etc. It is slightly more short in the back end than the A4 Avant, but is obviously taller.

The Q7 is based on the Touareg, with a slightly stretched wheelbase and some aluminum body panels. Old fashioned type transfer case with an Aisin transmission, rear-biased, big beefy suspension, etc. More akin to a BMW X5, Jeep Grand Cherokee, etc. Purpose-built unibody SUV, not a "car" at all. Substantially heavier. Like, about 1000 pounds. Which is why the Q5 TDI feels like a guided missile in comparison to the adequate but hardly exciting Q7.

Personally, I'd look for an A6 TDI. Bigger version of the same type of platform (all the new Audis north of the A3 and TT, including the new Q7, all ride on a similar underpinnings), same engine/trans/AWD setup as the Q5, but lower, sleeker, more comfortable to sit in (although the Q5 is plenty nice), and there are very few cars that roll down the highway as nice as the big VAG sedans. The A6 also has a reasonably large trunk, a spacious back seat, and they handle much better.

 

[Nero Morg]

Oilhammer I was hoping you'd chime in, your knowledge is always a huge help.

Sadly the person whose interested in my car already has a plane ticket to fly out here and check it out, can't back out of it now. In the meantime I have my truck, my samurai, and my neighbor offered to loan me her ALH jetta sedan I ironically sold her a year ago, so I'm not left without a set of wheels.

I hadn't looked too much into the A6's, but what I gather is the ZF transmission is better? Correct me if I'm wrong there. I'll start looking around at them too.

What's your opinion of the A7's and the A3's? I am trying to stay closer to the larger sedans, don't necessarily need a big SUV like the Q7's.

 

[gforce1108]

I hadn't looked too much into the A6's, but what I gather is the ZF transmission is better? Correct me if I'm wrong there. I'll start looking around at them too.

What's your opinion of the A7's and the A3's? I am trying to stay closer to the larger sedans, don't necessarily need a big SUV like the Q7's.

The A6 and A7 are mechanically identical - both considered C7 platform (apparently the A7 has its own chassis code though). The ZF8 is near bulletproof. The main issue being Audi says it's lifetime fluid when ZF says it's 50k? I changed my fluid/filter when I bought it at 104k. The emissions fix caused the trans shifting to be a little odd at times with all these 3.0 cars. There are tuners that can address it (Melen). Mine will get one soon. Non-ZF cars can use vcds to code to Porche Cayenne coding to correct. I tend to drive in manual quite a bit. FYI - A3 is essentially a Jetta - all fwd/auto. The 15A3 is a nice looking sedan - all prior were hatch/wagonish.

 

[Nero Morg]

Well that's good to hear.

Guess to really decide, I should go hit up a few dealers and do some test driving. Betcha they'll turn me away when I show up in my Samurai, haha!

 

[Nero Morg]

Change of plans, scoping out a 2014 A6 tdi tomorrow with only 48k miles on it!

 

[whatnxt]

Good choice.
Let us know what you think after your drive. Might still look at a Q5 just for fun.

 

[oilhammer]

You'll like the A6. I like the look of the A7 (technically, those are called a Sportback). But they are somewhat difficult to see out of (lots of blind spots) and the trunk isn't as useful.

The A6 on the highway is just a delight. Uses no more fuel than my B5 Passat, yet is ~20% larger and 50% more powerful (that extra 3 ratios in the ZF box helps). Also AWD, to boot. Probably not as "sprite-ly" off the line as the Q5 with its better power-to-weight ratio, but after about 30 MPH I'd say they are pretty close, and after 80.... the A6 just hunkers down and gobbles up the highway like its nothing. Seriously, 100 MPH feels like you could get out and walk, they are so smooth and stable. My Passat is nice... the A6 feels like it is etched from a solid piece of granite.

Heck, I like the A6 enough that I might even entertain one with the EA888 engine, despite my hatred of that income-inducing turd family of engines. At that point, it would for sure have to be an 'extra' car, LOL.... no trust of the EA888 further than I can throw it. And I've certainly had plenty of opportunities to try:

 

[Nero Morg]

I'm glad to hear you like the A6. I like the look of the A7 but they seem to be pretty far and few in between. Funny you say the EA888 is a hunkin turd, I hopped over to Audizine and there's guys over there pushing 200+ miles with no major issues yet. I specifically wanted a 2013+ one for the revised timing chain engine though.
I'll follow up with how I like the car.

Edit, just noticed the EA888 is the 2.0t gasser. Yep definitely wanted to avoid those!

 

[Nero Morg]

Ended up purchasing the 2014 A6 tdi, pretty fun!

Now I gotta figure out what the trans service interval is, and if it's been done... Car has 51k on it. Either it was just done, or it's due NOW.

 

[RexNICO]

Congrats!!

The VAG 3.0 TDI is a nice power plant.

We picked up a Q7 because we needed the space at the time. Would prefer a smaller (even if just stepping down to a Touareg) sized, so I'm interested to hear you experiences over the next few months.

There was a 2013 Audi A4 Avant 3.0 TDI w/6 speed for sale in Feb on AZ, it was in Switzerland. Sure would have been nice if those were brought to the US.

 

[Nero Morg]

Oh I definitely wish I could have got that variant, wagon for life. Part of the reason why I wanted the A7, but between word that their blind spots sucked, they were hard to find.
It definitely accelerates stupid fast, I have to definitely watch my speed in it.....

@RexNICO what do you know about the trans service interval?

 

[oilhammer]

Awesome!

Oh, and since I posted last in this thread, another EA888 has been brought in broken. Low oil pressure, only 81k miles.... 2009 Eos. (the balance shaft bearings most likely).

I would do the transmission when it is convenient, during a normal PM service. The Audis of that vintage are different with their schedule. They do a 5k, 15k, 25k, 35k, and so on (instead of the 5k, 10k, 20k, etc. the Volkswagens do). ZF recommends 100k km on their transmissions, so that is pretty close to 65k... I'd just do it then. Aside from the normal oil change/tire rotation, there isn't anything else scheduled at 65k.

Keep in mind too that those cars seem to go through brakes faster than most of the smaller dubs, and there are a bunch of brake choices... so when you rotate the tires, do yourself a favor and measure the brake rotors so you can be proactive in getting all your parts rounded up for when the brake pad warning lamp comes on. It may have already had brakes replaced once.

 

[Nero Morg]

@oilhammer once again thanks again for your help! Being a diesel mechanic myself, I'll be sure to listen to weird noises, and hope my balance shaft doesn't go out. I've got records showing it was serviced by an Audi dealer here every interval so far, so sounds like I have about 13k of smile miles to go before anything major. The dealer I picked it up from just put new pads, rotors, and tires on it before the sale.

 

[Lex Tdi]

I have been looking at the a6 and had settled on starting the search... Assuming the a8 has too many gadgets on it? I have been surprised to find a decent number of them but most had had 3-4 owners which didnt seem like a glowing report of enjoyable ownership.

 

[Nero Morg]

I ultimately steered clear od the A8, not because of the features, but because it was originally a $100k car, and even used they still reflect a hefty price tag.
But from what I gather, they have all the similar features that the a6/7 prestige trim packages would. Quad climate control, 7 speaker bose system, ect.
If you can find a nice one for a good price I'd do it! But definitely enjoying the A6 so far. First day driving it into work, it's like rolling on a comfy sofa.

 

[oilhammer]

Most people who buy uber-expensive cars new, do not have them long. I wouldn't necessarily let that factor mean anything in itself. And chances are, the second owner bought them CPO, and ran it until that coverage ran out. Pretty common. The more expensive Lexus models were the same way.

 

[eyyopomps]

I picked up a 2014 Q5 about a year and a half ago with 83K on it for $17K cash private seller. I'm sure used prices have gotten worse but the car was pristine and single-owned when I got it so I like to think I got a good deal. Previous owner had all the records for everything done on the car, it doesn't look like they had anything major ever fixed on it. I'm at 106K now and took the gamble of putting a Kerma tune on it and hoping techs don't notice the re-flash if I need to have any work done. Not sure about the Q7 but I did the ZF trans fluid and all 3 gearboxes when I got it as it likely had never been done since Audi claims those are "lifetime" oils (NOT). I have the 20" wheels and usually get around ~35MPG post tune.