Scanners/gauge monitors for 2012 tdi?

[Diesl]

Finally I'm getting some data for my 13C, 173 and 177 PIDs. Turns out one needs to unplug the Scangauge after changing any of the fields in an Xgauge, otherwise the changes won't be displayed. Still need to figure out the right data bit alignments and scaling (RXD & MTH).

 

[Diesl]

ScanGauge Xgauge settings for PIDs 3C, 73 and 77

Vehicle: 2012 Volkswagen Jetta Sportwagen TDI with DSG (aka 'Golf Variant' in other markets).

PID 3C 'Catalytic Converter Temperature' TXD 07DF013C RXF 0441053C RXD 2810 MTH 0001000AFFD8 comment: seems to run about 30 ºC colder than EGT3 (particulate filter inlet).

PID 73 'Exhaust Pressure' TXD 07DF0173 RXF 0573 RXD 3010 MTH 00010001000 comment: not sure about units, and what the other bytes are for (5 bytes according to wikipedia OBD-II entry); the raw number (with bit alignment and math as specified) varies between 59-65 at idle, and goes up to ~2950 at higher RPMs and higher throttle. This might be the differential pressure across the particulate filter, maybe in tenth of milliBar (i.e. units of 0.0001 bar)? (see also http://www.vweosclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4269 )
The byte at offset 28 (RXD 2808) is always 1.

PID 77 'Charge Air Cooler Temperature' TXD 07DF0177 RXF 0577 RXD 3008 MTH 00010001FFD8 comment: this seems to be the only byte that varies in this five byte field (again according to wikipedia OBD-II entry); the byte at offset 28 (RXD 2808) is always 1, and the bytes at 3808, 4008 and 4808 are always zero; with the math as specified the value seems to be in integer ºC and is 2-3ºC below ambient (observed at -9ºC).

PID 3C behaves as described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs#Standard_PIDs. PIDs 73 and 77 are supposedly 5 byte fields, but have no format given in the wikipedia entry. The first byte for both on my vehicle seems to be constant at 01.

 

[Diesl]

Some X-gauge codes for 2012 TDI

Here is an overview of what I found so far; exhaust gas temperatures are from a post by 'hardtimes', and PID assignments from the Wikipedia OBD II entry.

I didn't try to confirm variables that are already provided by the standard Scangauge output. For 7A (DPF info) I'm still in the dark as far as the actual meaning goes. For 6D (fuel pressure) I'm guessing the units are bar because numerically it would make sense. Same reasoning for the EPR units.

TXD is 07DF01+PID
name PID RXF     RXD  MTH          units   comment
 TIM 1F 0441051F 2810 000100010000 s       seconds since engine start
 BAR 33 04410533 2808 000100010000 kPa     atmospheric pressure
 CAT 3C 0441053C 2810 0001000AFFD8 ºC      DPF temperature
 FUF 5E 0441455E 2810 000500010000 L/hr    fuel flow
 TRQ 62 04410562 2808 00010001FF83 %       percent of actual torque
 FPa 6D 0541066D 3810 0001000A0000 bar     Requested fuel pressure  (<=1755)
 FPb 6D 0541066D 4810 0001000A0000 bar     Actual fuel pressure  (<=1740)
 BP1 70 05414670 3810 000100200000 bar     requested manifold pressure  ('4670' for hundredth
 BP2 70 05414670 4810 000100200000 bar     actual manifold pressure
 BP1 70 05418670 3810 00910C800000 psi     requested manifold pressure  ('8670' for tenth
 BP2 70 05418670 4810 00910C800000 psi     actual manifold pressure
 BP1 70 05418670 3810 00910C80FF6D psi     requested boost 
 BP2 70 05418670 4810 00910C80FF6D psi     actual boost 
 EPR 73 04410573 3010 0001000A0000 mBar    exhaust pressure
 ICT 77 04410577 3008 00010001FFD8 ºC      intercooler/charge air temperature
 ET1 78 05410678 3810 0001000AFFD8 ºC      exhaust temp. before turbo
 ET2 78 05410678 4810 0001000AFFD8 ºC      exhaust temp. before ox.cat.
 ET3 78 0321     2010 0001000AFFD8 ºC      exhaust temp. before DPF
 ET4 78 0321     3010 0001000AFFD8 ºC      exhaust temp. after DPF

 DPR 7A 0541067A 3810 0001000A0000 mBar    DPF pressure drop 


available info on this car:
PID contents
01 Monitor status since DTCs cleared
04 Calculated engine load value
05 Engine coolant temperature
0C Engine RPM
0D Vehicle speed
10 MAF air flow rate
13 Oxygen sensors present
1C OBD standards this vehicle conforms to
1F Run time since engine start
21 Distance traveled with malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on
24 O2S1_WR_lambda(1): Equivalence Ratio Voltage
25 O2S2_WR_lambda(1): Equivalence Ratio Voltage
30 # of warm-ups since codes cleared
31 Distance traveled since codes cleared
33 Barometric pressure
3C Catalyst Temperature Bank 1, Sensor 1 
41 Monitor status this drive cycle
42 Control module voltage
46 Ambient air temperature
49 Accelerator pedal position D
4A Accelerator pedal position E
4C Commanded throttle actuator
4F Maximum value for equivalence ratio, oxygen sensor voltage, oxygen sensor current, and intake manifold absolute pressure
5D Fuel injection timing
5E Engine fuel rate
61 Driver's demand engine - percent torque
62 Actual engine - percent torque
63 Engine reference torque
65 Auxiliary input / output supported
67 Engine coolant temperature
69 Commanded EGR and EGR Error
6D Fuel pressure control system
70 Boost pressure control 
71 Variable Geometry turbo (VGT) control 
73 Exhaust pressure
77 Charge air cooler temperature (CACT)
78 Exhaust Gas temperature (EGT) Bank 1
7A Diesel particulate filter (DPF)
7F Engine run time
81 Engine run time for Auxiliary Emissions Control Device(AECD)

Update 2013-3-13: RXF for PID 5E (fuel flow) should be 0441455E, instead of 0441055E, to get the correct decimal point placement in liter/hour
Update 2013-4-11: 'Hotpocket correction' - divisor for PID 70 boost variable is 32, not 30; added average atmospheric subtraction for real boost; changed PID 7A wild guess to 'expected DPF pressure drop'
Update 2013-5-1: PID 70 and 6D: RXD 3810 is requested value, 4808 (8 bits only) is actual boost/fuel pressure, respectively; moved 6D into main part of table, after confirmation (by 'hotpocketdeath') that VCDS also indicates this PID is fuel pressure; changed interpretation for 73 and 7A

 

[Diesl]

Forget about the soot load and fuel pressure in the previous post. I don't know what those values are, but I'm pretty sure they are not that. Maybe just a copy of DPF differential pressure, and fuel quantity, or fuel timing? If anybody has any insights, please post.
EDIT: see updated table above and later posts below.

 

[JdC Machine]

Edge CS plugs into your OBDII port and I have mine reading engine coolant temp, exhaust gas temp and also battery volts. There's several other PID's you can read also if you want. It's kinda pricey at $269 but its got alarms and a few other neat features

Can you elaborate on exactly which PIDs the Insight CS/CTS are able to read? Boost, intake air temperature, etc? So far, judging by your feedback, my questions might be answered. I've given some thought to the CTS myself but wasn't sure if it would read the correct EGT sensor. The other challenge, for me, would be finding a good place to mount it.

 

[Diesl]

It would be really nice having the definitions of all the VW OBD fields. I emailed VW of North America, and the VW mothership in the old country, but both replied 'We'd love to help you; just ask your dealer.' I visited the dealer today (they offer free car washes - never had a car that got washed that much...): The service guy (advisor? writer?) tried to be helpful, but I don't think he completely understood what I was talking about, and the technicians he called confused the mode 01 info with the error codes. Sigh.

 

[JdC Machine]

IIRC, I saw fuel pressure as one of the presets in the ScanGauge. I didn't keep it displayed long enough to see any numbers. With a diesel, it's a good one to have. Starve the CP3 (or what ever model the high pressure pump is) and it'll be a disaster. Seeing the Edge Insight CS used earlier in this thread, I contacted the folks at Edge to inquire about support for VW vehicles. Specifically, those with a TDI. My message to them:

Hello,

I noticed that Insight CS/CTS will work for most all 1996 and new, OBDII vehicles. I'm curious, as well as other TDI owners, as to exactly which PIDs the CS/CTS can read from 2012 and 2013 VW Passat TDIs. I'm sure the average sensors such as coolant temp., transmission temp., etc. are read but I'm specifically curious if it could read any of the 4 EGT thermocouples within the exhaust system and also boost pressure. I've contemplated purchasing an Insight CS or CTS but my only hindrance would be EGT readings through the ECM as opposed to having to add a K-type thermocouple to the exhaust system. Another possible challenge would be finding a good mounting location where it's somewhat discrete and almost factory looking.

Another curiosity, is there any R&D going on for near future support of VW TDIs?

Thank you.

Response:

Jim,

We have not recently done and R&D on specific parameters for the VW diesel but I definitely feel that there is a great demand for it. We are doing R&D on many of the popular gas-powered cars like the Mazda 3s, 6s, Subaru' and Nissans for a monitoring device we would offer under our Superchips brand and if that goes well, it is very likely we will seek out other compact and sports cars.

Best regards,

Mark Hayward
Inside Sales

 

[Diesl]

From Xgauge to Torque custom PID

I translated some of the previously published scangauge Xgauges to 'custom PID's for the Torque app:

The exhaust temperatures from PID 78 (cf. original post by hardtimes) are very easy to define in torque: ET 1 (which torque already knows about by default) is PID '01 78', and formula (B*256+C)/10 -40. For ET2, ET3 and ET4 replace B/C by D/E, F/G and H/I. [For those who care: Torque just appends the second frame data to the variables from the first frame. The only difference to single frame data is that you start at B instead of A.]
The screenshot also shows the built-in boost (in psi), which I find to be a bit off, and the custom PID absolute manifold pressure AMP in bar (which conveniently is 1.0 + boost). The built-in EGT2 does not work, but the DPF temperature CAT B1S1 does.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Cat B1S2 works as well.

 

[Diesl]

hotpocket correction

I updated my post above to correct the boost divisor (after comparison with VCDS was done by 'hotpocketdeath').

 

[Diesl]

I had another look at the raw numbers, and realized that I have the requested and actual boost backwards. The first number (RXD 3810) is requested, and the second number (RXD 4808, actually, although 4810 also works) is actual boost. It's obvious because actual boost does lag behind; it's particularly easily visible when you step off the throttle at about 2000 rpm (in sixth on the highway): the first number (requested) jumps immediately down to 1.04 bar, while the second more slowly decays to 1.20. Somebody else with both VCDS and scangauge had already pointed it out, but that must have been in a different thread.

What threw me off is that the actual boost number is only an 8 bit value, whereas requested uses both bytes. Initially I thought it made more sense if the requested value, coming from a map, had those round numbers, but it's not like that. The sensor has fewer bits than the map. Or at least OBD reports it that way.

Anyways, so the actual boost could be decoded as RXD 4808, with multiplication by 8 instead of division by 32 in the math. It moves in steps of 0.08 bar.

I'll update my table above. Same (second number is 8 bit only, and is probably the actual value) is true for PID 6D, 'injection pressure' or something like that. (I still haven't found any definitive info on whether the TDI CR system really varies the fuel pressure, although one post seemed to hint at that.)
EDIT: 'hotpocketdeath' confirmed that according to VCDS this PID is fuel pressure. Table updated.

 

[Diesl]

Coming back to PID 73 and 7A, maybe 73 is the total exhaust back pressure, and 7A the drop across the DPF part? This would agree better with the names in the OBDII Wikipedia entry (I know, anybody could have mis-edited that...) and also with what 'hotpocketdeath' seems to have extracted from VCDS:

PID 7A - Returns only one set of data in bytes B&C. Lists this information as DPF Delta and is in kPa. Formula appears to be ((B*256)+C)/100

PID 73 - Labeled Exhaust pressure, measured in kPa, same formula as PID 7A

 

[bassman5066]

I just got an OBD interface and the Torque Pro app and I love it. However, there are a few PIDs that I would like that seem to be missing. For my 2011, I would like to see requested and actual rail pressure, and intake air temp, as those don't seem to work in the predefined PIDs. How would I go about this?

 

[Diesl]

See my posts #33 and #38 above. #33 has the formulas, and #38 the recipe for translation to torque.

Air temperature (after the intercooler) should be PID 01 77, with formula B-40. (Intake temperature can't be all that different from ambient, and your car displays that already.)
Requested fuel pressure should be PID 01 6D, with formula (B*256+C)/10, for bar/atmosphere units. For PSI use (B*256+C)*1.45. Actual fuel pressure: replace B and C with D and E.

 

[bassman5066]

See my posts #33 and #38 above. #33 has the formulas, and #38 the recipe for translation to torque.

Air temperature (after the intercooler) should be PID 01 77, with formula B-40. (Intake temperature can't be all that different from ambient, and your car displays that already.)
Requested fuel pressure should be PID 01 6D, with formula (B*256+C)/10, for bar/atmosphere units. For PSI use (B*256+C)*1.45. Actual fuel pressure: replace B and C with D and E.

Nice, got those pressure monitors working along with IAT.

Do the CRs have a provision for oil temp and pressure?

Where do I find the equations for your listed boost (and all the others for that matter) PIDs?

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[bobt2382]

Do the CRs have a provision for oil temp and pressure?

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My 2010 TDI did not come with the oil temp sensor that is mounted in the bottom of the oil pan. I just bought one and need to install it. Hopefully the ECU and instrument cluster will accept the sensor input. A couple of folks have installed the sensor on a Golf R and it works. I have not seen anything about oil pressure reading though. As far as I know, we only have a sensor for low oil pressure that works the CEL light in the cluster.

 

[bassman5066]

My 2010 TDI did not come with the oil temp sensor that is mounted in the bottom of the oil pan. I just bought one and need to install it. Hopefully the ECU and instrument cluster will accept the sensor input. A couple of folks have installed the sensor on a Golf R and it works. I have not seen anything about oil pressure reading though. As far as I know, we only have a sensor for low oil pressure that works the CEL light in the cluster.

I find it very funny that my 98 VR6 had oil temp available on the MFD, but my 2011 TDI doesn't even have the sensor, let alone being available for display in the MFD.

So what's the deal with the OE sensor? Buy it from the dealer and install in factory location? Is the wiring already there?

Oil pressure was wishful thinking on my part, I just figured with all the new electronics on these things (cyl pressure sensors in the glow plugs are my favorite) they HAD to read pressure. I guess I figured wrong... :banghead:

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[Diesl]

Nice, got those pressure monitors working along with IAT.

You're welcome; good to know they work.

Where do I find the equations for your listed boost (and all the others for that matter) PIDs?

You need to ' reverse engineer' the ScanGauge Xgauge definitions in post #33.
The PID is 01 plus the two digits from the PID column.
The formula you extract from the RXD and MTH columns.
If RXD starts with 30, the first variable is A. If it starts with 38, B, 40 C, 48 D, and so on. If the second two digits in RXD are 08, there's only one variable used. If it's 10, there are two, and you multiply the first by 256 and add the second; like, B*256+C.
The first four hex digits in MTH are the multiplier (e.g. 91 is 145 decimal), the second four the divisor (e.g. A is 10), and the last four an offset (in so-called 'two's complement'). That's the only tricky bit: to subtract 40, you add hex FFD8, for example.
If you stick to metric, FFD8 is the only offset you need to learn...how's that for an incentive?!

 

[bassman5066]

You're welcome; good to know they work.

You need to ' reverse engineer' the ScanGauge Xgauge definitions in post #33.
The PID is 01 plus the two digits from the PID column.
The formula you extract from the RXD and MTH columns.
If RXD starts with 30, the first variable is A. If it starts with 38, B, 40 C, 48 D, and so on. If the second two digits in RXD are 08, there's only one variable used. If it's 10, there are two, and you multiply the first by 256 and add the second; like, B*256+C.
The first four hex digits in MTH are the multiplier (e.g. 91 is 145 decimal), the second four the divisor (e.g. A is 10), and the last four an offset (in so-called 'two's complement'). That's the only tricky bit: to subtract 40, you add hex FFD8, for example.
If you stick to metric, FFD8 is the only offset you need to learn...how's that for an incentive?!

Ah, thats what all that hex code is for up there... I was wondering if there was a way to translate that to an equation, so looks like I was on the right track. Does anyone have a CSV to import to torque with all the custom PIDs for our cars? I could make one up given the right info that way we could just share the CSV rather than inputting all the data manually. Thanks again.

Anyone know what "normal" IATs are for the 2.0 CR140? Since I got the gauge working I thought it seems a little low. Never goes below or equal to ambient, but it also doesn't seem to go more than 10-15F over, even under full boost. Is my IC just that efficient? I'm seeing 35-52 F IATs at 33F ambient.

For the injection timing PID, that should be in degrees BTDC right? I'm thinking about reversing that value so it displays ATDC (I'm displaying it on a graph and I want it to be "timing advance" graph rather than reading it backwards).

Do you guys leave your OBD adapters plugged in overnight? I know the DLC has constant 12V to it and that could be a nice surprise in the morning. I left mine in during visits to my customers, at most 2 hours, and it was fine. I'm reluctant to leave it plugged in overnight though.

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[bobt2382]

I find it very funny that my 98 VR6 had oil temp available on the MFD, but my 2011 TDI doesn't even have the sensor, let alone being available for display in the MFD.

So what's the deal with the OE sensor? Buy it from the dealer and install in factory location? Is the wiring already there?

Oil pressure was wishful thinking on my part, I just figured with all the new electronics on these things (cyl pressure sensors in the glow plugs are my favorite) they HAD to read pressure. I guess I figured wrong... :banghead:

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The dealer can get the euro sensor, connector, and oil pan w/hole. Wiring has to be added. VAGCOM change. Link below details the install on a Passat. Norm found a local machine shop that milled the sensor hole in his oil pan (pretty neat job). Your looking at $200ish for parts, depending where you buy and if you do the install yourself.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=395813

 

[bassman5066]

OK, lets start this with one I know...


Requested fuel pressure

FPa 6D 0541066D 3810 0001000A0000 bar

OBD Code: 016D

38 = "B"
10 = (B*256+C)
0001 = (B*256+C)1
000A = (B*256+C)/10 or you could set "scale" to ".1" in the app.
0000 = +/-0

Seems simple enough

Torque has its own multiplier/divisor function labeled as "scale" in the app as long as its a factor of 10.

Does RXF have any significance? Does is happen to offer min and max values or something else?

I can stick with the metric offset (FFD8) because the app converts to imperial for me. Anything that doesn't work, I can just factor the conversion into the equation when I enter it. What does FF83 mean?

Edit: Two's Complement Wiki

Just took a look at the above link. That's a lot more complicated than I thought. So how does this part work? Convert the hex (FFD8) to binary (1111111111011000)? I found some 2's complement calculators but I'm not quite sure how to use them.

I'm going to start working on a CSV file tonight. I probably won't get through all of em, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Diesl]

Two's complement is more or less like rolling over your odometer. After 9999 comes 0000. So, -40 becomes 9960, and if you add 9960 to any number it's the same as subtracting 40.
Same in hex.

FF83 has 16-3=13 missing to FF90, and another (16-9)=7, but in the '16' digit, to 0000. So that's 7*16+13= 125 below zero, or -125.

RXF is where you tell the scangauge to filter for your answer in the OBD stream, and it also contains any decimal point setting. I put it in the comments if there is a decimal point. For details you should look at the xgauge instructions on the scangauge website.

 

[bbogdanmircea]

Hello.
Can you retrieve with Torque any information related to DTCs ?
I have a 2003 Golf Variant and used Torque with standard PIDs but
the results are disappointing so far...

 

[bassman5066]

Hello.
Can you retrieve with Torque any information related to DTCs ?
I have a 2003 Golf Variant and used Torque with standard PIDs but
the results are disappointing so far...

Yes you should be able to read "P"(power train) codes as well as checking emissions monitor readiness and freeze frame data related to stored codes. You will not be able to read any other vehicle modules that VCDS could (such as ABS, airbag, radio, cecm, etc.). The number of PIDs for your model year are limited because your car has much fewer sensors than ours. My 91 (1Z) will probably be similar to your car, but I haven't tried it yet because I have the motor apart at the moment.

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[bbogdanmircea]

No it doesn't read any codes, freeze frame, readiness.
The only useful data that I can read is boost, intake pressure,
Coolant temperature, engine load, and other data that I can see also on
Instruments.
But It doesn't show any error codes, although I know I have V71 climatronic
error.

 

[bassman5066]

No it doesn't read any codes, freeze frame, readiness.
The only useful data that I can read is boost, intake pressure,
Coolant temperature, engine load, and other data that I can see also on
Instruments.
But It doesn't show any error codes, although I know I have V71 climatronic
error.

You wouldn't get to see climatronic codes as they don't fall in the "P" category. You will be pretty much limited to engine codes and PIDs unless your very friendly with Snap On's scan tool development department and know how to code.

Which adapter do you have? It's possible you got a clone. I am using the BAFX Bluetooth adapter that I got for $25 on amazon.

For your realtime data, you are probably missing a couple PIDs that have to be manually imported as custom for the software to be able to read them. See my mention of a CSV file a few posts up. Stand by for that, I'm hoping to finish editing the file tonight. I'm also writing up a "definitions.txt" file that outlines how I derived all my data for the CSV from Diesl's Xgauge hex code.

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[bassman5066]

Question for Diesl: have you tried contacting Ross tech for any further information on vehicle specific PIDs? They probably have all the info we need and would be the most willing out of anyone I can think of (VW, Snap On, Matco, etc) to help us.

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[Diesl]

I corrected the ICT (PID 77, charge air temperature) math in entry 33 to divide by 1 (not by 10).

 

[12vfleet]

Thanks for all of the work in figuring out the coding Diesl! I just received a ScanGuage II last weekend and will be seeing what I can get programmed in this week.

 

[TurboABA]

ICT 77 04410577 3008 0001000AFFD8 ºC intercooler/charge air temperature

I've been trying this on my 2010 and am getting a readout of -38 when ambient temp is -19...... I can't figure out WTH i've done wrong.
Any help is appreciated.