Jerod521
Well-known member
Any updates? I have a 97 SL1 and have been watching this with great interest.
Saturn TDI Conversion
- Thread starter CFM
- Start date
CFM
Veteran Member
Sorry to have dropped off the face of the earth...the Saturn TDI project is closer to being a runner since my last post, but not as quickly as I had planned with life getting in the way of things. The fuel lines are plumbed, just need to finish off a couple of electrical connections, add some hose clamps to the coolant lines, and pick up a couple more intercooler couplings and a serpentine belt. Probably take me a couple hours or so to finish it up, but getting the time to do it is another thing!
CFM
Veteran Member
Back from the dead...
It's been awhile...been tough going on my end with winter, the economy, school, and getting a bit burned out, but I've made some progress on it recently. My biggest snag was in the mounting of the ECU; it wouldn't go in the OEM location, so I had to rethink it...I ended up mounting it under the steering column, just aft of the pedals. The bracket also supports some of the TDI harness, so that helped to neaten things up.
I machined an adapter so I could run the Saturn shift knob; the shift pattern doesn't match, but my wagon has an OEM leather shift knob that I really like. The TDI shifter is almost the right OD for 1/2-20 threads, so I cut the shifter down and cut the threads, then made an adapter to thread over it. This also makes the shifter near identical in height and function to the short-throw shifter I made for the wagon.
And finally an underhood shot of the AEM cone intake filter (one of their dry recleanable ones), and you can also (barely) see the stainless steel fuel lines and nylon support blocks for them.
I ran into a snag with the water pump pulley that I bought awhile back to eliminate the a/c and power steering...it's really close to the crank pulley and frame, too close for comfort, actually. Not sure if there is something out there closer to 4"-4 1/4" diameter from another car that I could modify, so I'm just going to cast and machine one out of aluminum. I spent most of yesterday afternoon sorting through the underdash wiring as well...now that it's all bundled up and routed where it needs to go, it's not quite as daunting.
I found it was a lot easier to use the existing Saturn switches at the clutch and brake pedals; the brake switch has extra connections, making it even easier to just plug a pigtail connector in after I tested the switch functions. I need to go back through some of these threads, but if I remember correctly, ECU pin #44 goes to +12V at the brake switch (receives 12v when you step on the brakes)...haven't wired that in yet, though.
Didn't get a picture of it yet, but I finished the downpipe from the turbo to the Saturn exhaust. It's 2 1/2" from the flange to the flex coupling, then 2 1/4" to a slip-fit with a three-bolt flange to mate to the Saturn exhaust. I did it this way since I TIG-welded everything at work and had no way of making sure I had the flange clocked to match the other.
It's been awhile...been tough going on my end with winter, the economy, school, and getting a bit burned out, but I've made some progress on it recently. My biggest snag was in the mounting of the ECU; it wouldn't go in the OEM location, so I had to rethink it...I ended up mounting it under the steering column, just aft of the pedals. The bracket also supports some of the TDI harness, so that helped to neaten things up.
I machined an adapter so I could run the Saturn shift knob; the shift pattern doesn't match, but my wagon has an OEM leather shift knob that I really like. The TDI shifter is almost the right OD for 1/2-20 threads, so I cut the shifter down and cut the threads, then made an adapter to thread over it. This also makes the shifter near identical in height and function to the short-throw shifter I made for the wagon.
And finally an underhood shot of the AEM cone intake filter (one of their dry recleanable ones), and you can also (barely) see the stainless steel fuel lines and nylon support blocks for them.
I ran into a snag with the water pump pulley that I bought awhile back to eliminate the a/c and power steering...it's really close to the crank pulley and frame, too close for comfort, actually. Not sure if there is something out there closer to 4"-4 1/4" diameter from another car that I could modify, so I'm just going to cast and machine one out of aluminum. I spent most of yesterday afternoon sorting through the underdash wiring as well...now that it's all bundled up and routed where it needs to go, it's not quite as daunting.
I found it was a lot easier to use the existing Saturn switches at the clutch and brake pedals; the brake switch has extra connections, making it even easier to just plug a pigtail connector in after I tested the switch functions. I need to go back through some of these threads, but if I remember correctly, ECU pin #44 goes to +12V at the brake switch (receives 12v when you step on the brakes)...haven't wired that in yet, though.
Didn't get a picture of it yet, but I finished the downpipe from the turbo to the Saturn exhaust. It's 2 1/2" from the flange to the flex coupling, then 2 1/4" to a slip-fit with a three-bolt flange to mate to the Saturn exhaust. I did it this way since I TIG-welded everything at work and had no way of making sure I had the flange clocked to match the other.
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greg123
Veteran Member
In terms of losses that are not drivetrain losses (engine efficiency, gearbox drag etc) it's simple.
In town, with stop start, virtually all of your economy loss is due to weight. Every time you hit the lights and then stop at the next set, you had to haul 2 tons up to 40mph for nothing. That's a lot of gas. A 1 ton car, a lot less gas.
On the open road, where a constant speed is kept and work pulling weight up a hill is generally given back by the weight pulling you down the other side of the hill, aerodynamics are the main loss. Imagine pushing a piece of wood boarding 4' high and 5'5'' wide square on to the wind at 80mph. That takes a lot of power and is essentially the amount of air the average car has to displace.
Moral - no matter how teardrop streamlined you make an SUV, accelerating 2 tons around town will ALWAYS use a lot of fuel. Moral - no matter how light you make your kevlar bodied superlight 103 seater double deck bus, pushing a 2 story vehicle the shape of a brick through the air at 90mph will ALWAYS use a lot of fuel.
It's why somethng like a passat estate doesn't really use any more fuel than a Lupo traveling at 80mph, yet it's about twice the size (but similar aerodynamic drag).
Economic in town is suited to small, light cars. Economic on the highway is suited to streamlined cars. The most economic of all, like the VW1L, are both very light and very aerodynamic.
Greg.
In town, with stop start, virtually all of your economy loss is due to weight. Every time you hit the lights and then stop at the next set, you had to haul 2 tons up to 40mph for nothing. That's a lot of gas. A 1 ton car, a lot less gas.
On the open road, where a constant speed is kept and work pulling weight up a hill is generally given back by the weight pulling you down the other side of the hill, aerodynamics are the main loss. Imagine pushing a piece of wood boarding 4' high and 5'5'' wide square on to the wind at 80mph. That takes a lot of power and is essentially the amount of air the average car has to displace.
Moral - no matter how teardrop streamlined you make an SUV, accelerating 2 tons around town will ALWAYS use a lot of fuel. Moral - no matter how light you make your kevlar bodied superlight 103 seater double deck bus, pushing a 2 story vehicle the shape of a brick through the air at 90mph will ALWAYS use a lot of fuel.
It's why somethng like a passat estate doesn't really use any more fuel than a Lupo traveling at 80mph, yet it's about twice the size (but similar aerodynamic drag).
Economic in town is suited to small, light cars. Economic on the highway is suited to streamlined cars. The most economic of all, like the VW1L, are both very light and very aerodynamic.
Greg.
nathan.chase said:
CFM
Veteran Member
More progress on the car: I have the under-dash wiring pretty much done, just need to get a 6-pin connector so I can tie in some of the hot and switched wiring into the respective Saturn wiring. I still need to move the Saturn fan motor forward another inch so I can put a full-size oil filter back on. I actually have a Saturn oil filter spun on there right now, but it's probably too small to run for this application. I need to pick up a diesel fuel filter, too...any recommendations for this?
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
CFM: I don't know if you can find a spot for this, but the FM100 filter head and cartridge filter will be the best. Check this thread:CFM said:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=243881
I'm doing this upgrade to my car as we speak.
Tony
egibbys
Veteran Member
That's pretty sweet.
CFM
Veteran Member
A few updates with some pictures:
I found that the water pump pulley was just a little too large in diameter to clear the subframe, so I fired up the foundry and cast a new one.
This is the raw casting after I cut the sprue off, with the wood pattern next to it. At the top is the stainless steel exhaust flange with a slip joint that I made to go on the end of my downpipe, allowing it to be clocked and mated to the Saturn exhaust flange. It's been raining off and on this week, so I haven't gone under the car to install it yet.
Machining the pulley on the lathe; I built the foundry and lathe from Dave Gingery's "Shop From Scrap" series of books from www.lindsaybks.com
And here's the final product; it's a bit smaller in diameter to give plenty of clearance to the subframe...the water pump will spin a little faster, but I don't think it will be enough to cause any problems.
I did some electrical testing over the weekend, just to check out what I have wired up so far. No smoke, which is always a good sign! I still have a few items that I'm a bit paranoid about, I'll ask about them later on when I can double-check everything beforehand.
I found that the water pump pulley was just a little too large in diameter to clear the subframe, so I fired up the foundry and cast a new one.
This is the raw casting after I cut the sprue off, with the wood pattern next to it. At the top is the stainless steel exhaust flange with a slip joint that I made to go on the end of my downpipe, allowing it to be clocked and mated to the Saturn exhaust flange. It's been raining off and on this week, so I haven't gone under the car to install it yet.
Machining the pulley on the lathe; I built the foundry and lathe from Dave Gingery's "Shop From Scrap" series of books from www.lindsaybks.com
And here's the final product; it's a bit smaller in diameter to give plenty of clearance to the subframe...the water pump will spin a little faster, but I don't think it will be enough to cause any problems.
I did some electrical testing over the weekend, just to check out what I have wired up so far. No smoke, which is always a good sign! I still have a few items that I'm a bit paranoid about, I'll ask about them later on when I can double-check everything beforehand.
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Growler
Got Soot Vendor
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Location
- Millersport, Ohio
- TDI
- Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
holy crap.. you have a foundry and a Gingry lathe too?
NICE!
NICE!
phatcyclist
Veteran Member
That's an incredible amount of custom fabbing.
mr.mindless
Veteran Member
wow, the ability to cast something sure beats having to machine from raw stock.
CFM
Veteran Member
Here's a shot of the downpipe I made to fit the car; at the time, I couldn't find a stainless steel 2 1/4" flex coupling, so I bought a 2 1/2" one and the tubing to go with it. LOTS of cutting and welding to make the bend radius tight enough to fit within the space confines I have available! It goes to 2 1/4" after the flex coupling, and the slip-joint exhaust flange fits on the end. This worked out pretty good, although I would like to conjure up some sort of hanger to support the system so the flex coupling doesn't have to.
Didn't get a picture of it yet, but the aluminum water pump pulley is bolted in, complete with a new serpentine belt. That was a fun project to machine, a good way to spend a rainy afternoon. I'm also making up a bracket for a Mk 4 TDI fuel filter (special thanks to Bleached Bora for this!), hanging it below the master cylinder. I also need to TIG a section of 5/16" tubing onto the end of the stainless steel 1/4" return line, just to make life easier in running 5/16" hose from the hard line to the fuel filter tee. As always, the devil is in the details...
CFM
Veteran Member
This is the in-tank fuel pressure bypass I made so I can convert the EFI fuel pump into a lift pump, using a length of 1/4" stainless steel tubing installed on the connector tube that runs between the pump and the top of the reservoir.
And installed inside the fuel pump reservoir, although a little hard to see...the idea behind this is to bleed off excess fuel pressure back into the tank, and in the event the fuel pump should quit, the car will still run. If you've ever had to drop a full fuel tank because of this, you can appreciate my thought process!
The A4 fuel filter mounted under the master cylinder; it's a little hard to see in the picture, it's the only place where I had any room to put it. It actually isn't hard to get at. It started raining when I was installing it, so I didn't have a chance to install the hose clamps on the fuel lines.
My favorite part of the fuel tank project was opening up the filler neck. While the tank was out, I used a hole saw to cut the opening, then dropped the filler neck out of the car to deburr it and clean/flush it out.
I have the tank all flushed out and ready for diesel fuel. Very little left to do to fire it up...fuel, oil, coolant (any recommendations for this?), a couple of electrical connections for hot and switched power, run through the wiring and hoses to make sure everything is ready, ect. I'm getting excited (and a little nervous!) about firing this thing up, it's been a long project but also a lot of fun and a big learning curve so far...will be more of a learning curve once I get to drive it.
And installed inside the fuel pump reservoir, although a little hard to see...the idea behind this is to bleed off excess fuel pressure back into the tank, and in the event the fuel pump should quit, the car will still run. If you've ever had to drop a full fuel tank because of this, you can appreciate my thought process!
The A4 fuel filter mounted under the master cylinder; it's a little hard to see in the picture, it's the only place where I had any room to put it. It actually isn't hard to get at. It started raining when I was installing it, so I didn't have a chance to install the hose clamps on the fuel lines.
My favorite part of the fuel tank project was opening up the filler neck. While the tank was out, I used a hole saw to cut the opening, then dropped the filler neck out of the car to deburr it and clean/flush it out.
I have the tank all flushed out and ready for diesel fuel. Very little left to do to fire it up...fuel, oil, coolant (any recommendations for this?), a couple of electrical connections for hot and switched power, run through the wiring and hoses to make sure everything is ready, ect. I'm getting excited (and a little nervous!) about firing this thing up, it's been a long project but also a lot of fun and a big learning curve so far...will be more of a learning curve once I get to drive it.
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aja8888
Top Post Dawg
As far as coolant, I suggest you use the VW G -11 or G-12 coolant even though it is a bit costly.
http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=427
Tony
http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=427
Tony
Whitbread
Vendor , w/Business number
Um, yeah...wow is about right. As a fellow fabricator, mad props man. A foundry is definitely something that isn't in my garage haha. That would've come in handy for the set of rear wheel spacer/adapters I had to make for my dually. About 14 hours total of machining in the pair of them. They started life as pieces of 3/4" flat platemr.mindless said:
.
I've been following this thread for a while and can't wait to see the frankenstein breathe
.
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CFM
Veteran Member
Now THAT is a thing of beauty! I can appreciate what you put into those; a lot of work, but also very satisfying.
Picked up a couple of silicone connectors so I can install the upper intercooler plumbing, and came up with a better mounting arrangement for the intercooler after discovering a couple of easily-accessible tooling holes in the body. Between work, school, and the weather, I haven't made much progress this week, but I'm hoping to wrap up the wiring and test it this weekend and take care of a few odds and ends. I am SO close....!
Picked up a couple of silicone connectors so I can install the upper intercooler plumbing, and came up with a better mounting arrangement for the intercooler after discovering a couple of easily-accessible tooling holes in the body. Between work, school, and the weather, I haven't made much progress this week, but I'm hoping to wrap up the wiring and test it this weekend and take care of a few odds and ends. I am SO close....!
Whitbread
Vendor , w/Business number
Why thank you, I suppose I don't do too bad for a "young kid" . I can only say the same for all of the crazy stuff you're done. It's really great to see other people doing the kinds of things that everyone else says you can't.
Sooo....how'd the wiring tests go this weekend?
. I can only say the same for all of the crazy stuff you're done. It's really great to see other people doing the kinds of things that everyone else says you can't. Sooo....how'd the wiring tests go this weekend
?CFM
Veteran Member
It keeps raining off-and-on, so it's been hard to get some good weather to test everything out. But I did (finally) install the upper intercooler plumbing...one more phase of the project done! I also made up the brackets for remounting the intercooler, but it's been raining, so I haven't been able to install that yet. It's been more like the Amazon rain forests than southern Maine around here lately...
Frankendiesel
Veteran Member
Nice work so far man. I'm about 1/2 step behind you with my minivan conversion!
Don't want to rain on your parade, but I did want to point out one thing; from the research I did, I understand the ECU has an ambient air temp sensor inside it that determines glow plug on-time. If you put it inside the car, it may skew the calculations for the glow plug timing. I thought about putting my ECU in the cab too, but decided against it at the last minute. For one thing, I would have had to extend the wiring harness (not fun ). Any comments out there on this dilemma from the peanut gallery? Is it a moot point?
Not to hijack the thread, but just a quick update: I have my wiring about 99% done. Next is the intake plumbing including mounting the intercooler; I'm anxious to see how/where you mounted and plumbed your IC.
Great work; we should meet up sometime to share stories!
Travis
Don't want to rain on your parade, but I did want to point out one thing; from the research I did, I understand the ECU has an ambient air temp sensor inside it that determines glow plug on-time. If you put it inside the car, it may skew the calculations for the glow plug timing. I thought about putting my ECU in the cab too, but decided against it at the last minute. For one thing, I would have had to extend the wiring harness (not fun
). Any comments out there on this dilemma from the peanut gallery? Is it a moot point? Not to hijack the thread, but just a quick update: I have my wiring about 99% done. Next is the intake plumbing including mounting the intercooler; I'm anxious to see how/where you mounted and plumbed your IC.
Great work; we should meet up sometime to share stories!
Travis
CFM
Veteran Member
Hey, I just checked out your updated thread earlier...lookin' good! Didn't know about the ambient air temp sensor in the ECU; then again, I kind of ran out of room under the hood for mounting things, so the ECU ended up under the dash.
If it ever stops raining here, I'll get some updated pics posted. I was able to pick up on a factory mounting point to support the upper IC plumbing, and I'm anxious to finish the last couple of electrical connections under the dash.
If it ever stops raining here, I'll get some updated pics posted. I was able to pick up on a factory mounting point to support the upper IC plumbing, and I'm anxious to finish the last couple of electrical connections under the dash.
CFM
Veteran Member
It runs! It lives!
FINALLY got it up and running today! The weather actually dried out, so I took advantage of the opportunity to finish the last bit of wiring under the dash. Then I added some coolant, oil, and (of course) diesel fuel. The Saturn EFI pump worked very well as a lift pump, but it still needed a shot of ether to fire up...probably don't have the glow plug circuit wired up correctly. But it runs really well, and I took it for a spin around the block to try it out.
The first thing I discovered is that I need to do some adjusting to the shift linkage, as first is where reverse is supposed to be. Everything works, although the tachometer reads very low and the speedometer high (which I expected), so I'll need some signal converters to sort them out. The temp gauge seems to be accurate; still need to wire up something for the cooling fan, although the motor didn't seem to run hot. Great throttle response, and the clutch feels pretty good. Went to start it again, but there was no power to the starter, so I will have to investigate that one. Took the pictures after its maiden voyage, with the lower picture showing the bracket I made to support the uppper intercooler hose.
Hopefully the weather will cooperate so I can start sorting things out and try it out again; it's a real thrill to have successfully pulled off an engine conversion like this!
FINALLY got it up and running today! The weather actually dried out, so I took advantage of the opportunity to finish the last bit of wiring under the dash. Then I added some coolant, oil, and (of course) diesel fuel. The Saturn EFI pump worked very well as a lift pump, but it still needed a shot of ether to fire up...probably don't have the glow plug circuit wired up correctly. But it runs really well, and I took it for a spin around the block to try it out.
The first thing I discovered is that I need to do some adjusting to the shift linkage, as first is where reverse is supposed to be. Everything works, although the tachometer reads very low and the speedometer high (which I expected), so I'll need some signal converters to sort them out. The temp gauge seems to be accurate; still need to wire up something for the cooling fan, although the motor didn't seem to run hot. Great throttle response, and the clutch feels pretty good. Went to start it again, but there was no power to the starter, so I will have to investigate that one. Took the pictures after its maiden voyage, with the lower picture showing the bracket I made to support the uppper intercooler hose.
Hopefully the weather will cooperate so I can start sorting things out and try it out again; it's a real thrill to have successfully pulled off an engine conversion like this!
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
Nice Job!
Keep us updated...
Keep us updated...
CFM
Veteran Member
Played with the shift linkage today and got that sorted out. As it turned out, the shift gate cable was a little too short, but it was a simple matter of unscrewing the heim joint I used on the shifter end a few threads to solve the problem. I also installed a new pin on the transmission linkage to shorten the side-to-side play of the shifter. Now that it is fully sorted and functional, it has a nice feel to it, good quick shifts and a more solid, precise feel. Now I just need to do some troubleshooting on the wiring harness to figure out the glow plugs and the starter...I'll bang my head against the wall on this before I find out it was something simple.
CFM
Veteran Member
Fired it up again today, had to give it another shot of starting fluid...I don't want to make a habit of that, as I'm sure it's not very good for a diesel. Definitely need to sort out the glow plug circuit, and find out why the check engine light is on. The gearbox now shifts the way it is supposed to, although I discovered that the radiator has a small leak. I have another one to drop in, just a matter of doing it.
Took it for a quick banzai run up and down the road. Wow, this thing is pretty quick for a stock TDI...it really pulls hard! The motor mounts are kind of firm, so there are a lot of vibrations in the car at idle, although things smooth out at a higher speed. The cruise control works, another successful integration of Saturn and VW parts. The temp gauge goes to about halfway and stays there; at first I was concerned that it might be overheating, but it turned out to be a calibration difference between the Saturn gauge and the TDI temp sender.
Took it for a quick banzai run up and down the road. Wow, this thing is pretty quick for a stock TDI...it really pulls hard! The motor mounts are kind of firm, so there are a lot of vibrations in the car at idle, although things smooth out at a higher speed. The cruise control works, another successful integration of Saturn and VW parts. The temp gauge goes to about halfway and stays there; at first I was concerned that it might be overheating, but it turned out to be a calibration difference between the Saturn gauge and the TDI temp sender.
gforce1108
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2006
- Location
- Newburgh, NY
- TDI
- 04 Jetta GLS BEW, 14 Audi A7 V6 TDI, 13 Porsche Cayenne V6 TDI
You might want to go through the hard-start threads to see if anything in there helps you. It really hasn't been cold enough to need the glow plugs. Is the OBD port still usable for a vcds scan?
Stay away from the starting fluid if at all possible.
Stay away from the starting fluid if at all possible.
greenskeeper
Top Post Dawg
Hard start is probably IP timing. No need for GP until below 40F. Hopefully you can use vagcom to check the timing.
CompressionIgnition
Active member
I have read engine swaps of every kind all over the internet seemingly since forever.
This one impresses me most.
Sell me a kit?
This one impresses me most.
Sell me a kit?
CFM
Veteran Member
I'll have to see if I can get someone with a vagcom to check it out; the port is still there and (should be) fully functional. I've been up to my eyeballs with papers for my College Composition class, so I haven't been able to get back to the car!