RWD TDI?

thespian666

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
TDI
1976 Mercedes 300d (no longer)
Okay, first time caller, looooong time listener (like two years) and I really really don't like FWD but I'm more than smitten with TDI's (well pretty much anything that combines torque and good mpg.)

I'd like to know whom on this forum went from RWD to FWD as a daily driver and is okay with it??? I would love to pick up a Caddy but I'm not interested in dying in an accident in anything over 10 mph (I do drive a volvo) Anyway, I'd appreciate some opinions on how the FWD driving dynamics in these A3/4 TDI's are not comprimised.

Thanks
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Okay, first time caller, looooong time listener (like two years) and I really really don't like FWD but I'm more than smitten with TDI's (well pretty much anything that combines torque and good mpg.)

I'd like to know whom on this forum went from RWD to FWD as a daily driver and is okay with it??? I would love to pick up a Caddy but I'm not interested in dying in an accident in anything over 10 mph (I do drive a volvo) Anyway, I'd appreciate some opinions on how the FWD driving dynamics in these A3/4 TDI's are not comprimised.

Thanks
I went from a RWD gasser (well... 4WD capable) to the FWD TDI, don't notice any difference other than I have better traction than in 2WD


What's not to like about FWD?
 

Papachristou

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Location
Memphis, TN
TDI
2012 VW Passat SE DSG
no complaints about it except for it handles better, is safer etc,

why do you have 66* in your SN? thats kind of satanic
 

thespian666

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
TDI
1976 Mercedes 300d (no longer)
no complaints about it except for it handles better, is safer etc,

why do you have 66* in your SN? thats kind of satanic
It's only satanic if you're superstitious like that; which I assume you are. I use it cause I'm an actor and my name is Damian. Thespian = actor, 666 = Damian; because so many people ask me if I've seen the movie Damien, the Omen and I want to slap them and say "It's just a damn movie, ask my parents if you have a problem with that." Also, it's my handle over at turbobricks.com as well.

Anyhoo, to answer the earlier query about my negative thoughts on FWD:

1. FWD is good for traction in inclimate weather, but that's about it. Unless you run super thick drag-slicks up front, a FWD car with equal power and suspension setup will almost always take second-fiddle to a RWD or perhaps AWD.

2. Torque-steer; which, of course, is usually taken care of with equal length half-shafts.

3. Cornering grip is sacrificed with FWD (according to some basic laws of physics)

4. Understeer, followed by off-throttle oversteer.

5. These characteristics can only be lessened with technology, whereas the benifits of RWD or a good rear-biased AWD can only be increased with a good traction control system and snow tires when the snow falls.

Don't get me wrong. As I said, I've loved the TDI's ever since the ALH A4 came around.

My ideal though would be 4-motion, 4 Door Golf with Rocketchip Stage 3, PP520's, VR6/other clutch, VNT17 upgrade, turbo-back 3 inch exhaust.
Pretty much never gonna happen.
 

Nate242

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Location
Tigard, OR
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI
Having just made the jump from a '78 Volvo 242 I can say that my new car is a much nicer car to drive. I drove the old Volvo for ~7 years and loved it most of the time, but after driving this new car for a week, it's almost painfull to go back.

At one point in time I thought about grabbing a tdi from a wreck and splicing it into the Volvo... I'm really glad I didn't.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer rwd. My volvo was lowered, had IPD sways and better shocks so it rode pretty nice, but the combination of torque, gas mileage, and comfort stuff definintly sold me on the golf tdi. So far so good. I don't mind the fwd at all, infact I kinda like not having to worry about the rear end coming around on me...
 

Y2KBuggy

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri area
TDI
New Beetle, 2005, gray; 2000, yellow
I went from RWD to FWD for my commuter/running around vehicle. The FWD feature of my bug is one of the very few things that I don't like... but I would buy another one today if I had to replace it
. I don't like the FWD feature because there are some things that you can do with RWD that you simply cannot do with FWD. However... I like the diesel longevity and mpg enough for all the miles that I drive to grit my teeth and do the FWD thing... under normal circumstances like commuting, the FWD is safe. Just remember that in a skid, the handling and required driver actions are a little different-- learn them (before you need them) and you'll be fine. For non-specialized applications/normal circumsatnces, most people actually prefer FWD.


Yes, I am something of a luddite...


My Y2K bug is buggy!
 

dsclark

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Location
Carson City, NV
RWD handles better, that's a fact.Even in Europe, the finest cars are rwd. Mercedes? RWD. BMW? Rwd. Sports cars? There has never been a fwd sports car. I don't consider "sports coupes" like Preludes and Corrados sport cars, I am talking 911, 944, Corvette, Ferrari, etc.
Americans are enamoured with fwd because they don't know how to drive. That's why all cars come with oodles of of understeer, so as not to frighten the average driver.
Advances in traction control and tire tech have negated the need for fwd even in the snow belt. Chrysler saw the light and is making rwd cars. GM planned on ditching fwd for its larger cars, but because of money problems, is shelving its plans for the zeta platform. If you like fwd, great. If you think it is better handling than rwd, then you better starting emailing hundreds of professional race drivers and 1000's of engineers that they have it all wrong!
 

Toronto_Vento

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 7, 2002
Location
Richmond Hill, ON
TDI
01 Baltic Green Bora
I learned to drive on RWD cars, but have personally owned FWD. For an every day driver, adjustments can be made to make a FWD almost as fun as a RWD. If you are looking for drag strip potential, then you probably shouldn't be looking at a TDI anyhow.

Yes, I know the good and bad points of the different drive systems. Yes, I have driven through all kinds of weather conditions in the different drive systems. Nothing beats throwing a huge car like the mid-80s Capriece into a side slide, and pulling out with the rear tires going. BTW, it has been shown that properly set up FWD cars, can be pretty close on the track to a RWD...only problem is that it takes more driver skill, and a lot of adjusting. I'd love it if there were something like a RWD with AWD option on the TDI, but we are stuck with FWD. I wouldn't change the car, though, and I'd probably buy another TDI before considering a specifically RWD car.
 

ericy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Location
Rehoboth Beach, DE
TDI
2015 Golf TDI (wife's car)
I learned to drive on RWD cars, but have personally owned FWD. For an every day driver, adjustments can be made to make a FWD almost as fun as a RWD. If you are looking for drag strip potential, then you probably shouldn't be looking at a TDI anyhow.

Yes, I know the good and bad points of the different drive systems. Yes, I have driven through all kinds of weather conditions in the different drive systems. Nothing beats throwing a huge car like the mid-80s Capriece into a side slide, and pulling out with the rear tires going. BTW, it has been shown that properly set up FWD cars, can be pretty close on the track to a RWD...only problem is that it takes more driver skill, and a lot of adjusting. I'd love it if there were something like a RWD with AWD option on the TDI, but we are stuck with FWD. I wouldn't change the car, though, and I'd probably buy another TDI before considering a specifically RWD car.
It is funny - I have had both types of cars, and I really got tired of the awful handling in the snow with a RWD car. White-knuckle driving


I doubt that I would ever buy another RWD car.
 

cattlerepairman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Location
Ottawa
TDI
none
I had a 1986 Volvo 240 and a 1994 Volvo 940 and put about 100k km on each.
My mom still has her 1989 Volvo 440 (not available in N.A.; it is FWD). I like FWD and RWD for different reasons. A stock ALH TDI usually dynoes 85+ hp at the wheels. Try that with a stock RWD with an engine of similar output.

Drivetrain losses in the FWD setup are usually less. That 1.7l 4cyl in the 440 cranks out 90HP - but, boy, does it go! A 90hp RWD BMW (my friend had a 198? 316)is simply a dog. "Butt-Dyno" - I know.

Handling...well...have you ever met two people that fully agree on which toppings really need to go onto a pizza? Unlikely. The same applies to handling characteristics.

I do miss the fact that a light tap on the gas pedal could make the RWD Volvo's rear end swing around quite elegantly in the winter.
I do not miss the fact that sudden loss of traction or an ill-timed tap on the gas pedal could make the RWD Volvo's rear end swing out in a spin-steering-wheel-desperately kind of way.

My Beetle is much more docile. I have a stretch of winding secondary (more "tertiary") road through a whole lot of nothing that is fun to drive in the winter. I find it hard to push the Beetle exactly to the point of soft drifting - I need to use quite vigorous control input to make it happen.

The understeer under power and transition into oversteer when you decrease power is scary only when you do not expect it. Once you get the hang of it, you can use it to your advantage.

I am fine with both FWD and RWD..but still believe that RWD simply has physical advantages through having non-powered wheels steer. I do side with the wishes for TDI and 4Motion


Just one note to the comment on "Americans can't drive": I am not entering this particular argument, however, if you drive A LOT and long distances, all the active and passive safety devices - including docile handling, traction control, anti locks etc. - are an incredible safety asset.

While "pushing it" is fun - for how long can you sustain it? You will get fatigued, distracted, tired, and then you will NOT be in control in that single second on your trip where it would really matter.

In this light, I do not see the electronic helpers as "spoilsports".
 

dsclark

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Location
Carson City, NV
I have both kinds of cars and guess what? Most of the time I drive, it isn't snowing outside! My daily driver is a rwd ('96 Impala, with stock 255-50-17zr tires) and it drive in snow.Unlike the previous mentioned '85 Caprice, it came with a lsd. When my Jetta wagon got stuck in snow(it was too deep and the clearance got it stuck), it was my cable shod Impala that pulled it out. But, most of the time I drive, there isn't 5" of snow! Furthermore, it is a lot more fun to drive. As i said before, if you think FWD is the equal to rewd in handling, then go and set all those engineers and professional drivers straight.Also, don't forget to tell all those dumb europeans so they can start buying Accords instead of those inferior handling Mercedes Benz,BMW, Porsche, Lotus, etc. Come up with a list of the top ten handling cars on the list and you won't see a fwd near it. All cheap cars have fwd because it is cheap.I'll quote autonet.com here:
"The general engineering consensus is that front-wheel drive is great for cars with average performance, but the more performance a vehicle has, the less attractive the handling and driving characteristics become.

Skid-prone

Proponents of front-wheel drive claim their cars are less apt to skid, corner faster and can pull better. Under some circumstances that's true, but no matter what the design, when the limit of adhesion is reached between tires and the road surface, a skid will occur.

Front-wheel-drive vehicles understeer, and combined with a forward bias in weight, do characteristically provide better traction initially in the snow. Yet, in dry conditions, once underway, the front-wheel-drive vehicle's handling is far less predictable when a loss of control does occur. As well, most performance-oriented front-wheel-drive vehicles in dry conditions tend to suffer from torque steer when accelerating from a standstill.

Maintenance costs, particularly in full-size front-wheel-drive vehicles, are higher, due in part to front-end weight, which causes increased wear (front tires, brakes, steering, transaxles, etc.).

The rear-wheel-drive handling characteristics of any performance-oriented vehicle allow it to be driven at close to its limit speeds. (Police departments prefer -- or tend to insist on -- rear-wheel drive for pursuit vehicles.)

Today, rear-wheel drive makes even greater sense considering the huge improvement in tires, brakes, suspension design and the advancements in computerized traction and stability control systems.
Both the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum come standard with Electronic Stability Program (ESP) and All-Speed Traction Control.

Noted Eric Ridenour, executive vice-president, product development, Chrysler Group, "(Rear-wheel drive) separates the steering and acceleration duties. This eliminates compromises and enables enhanced performance and handling."
 

thespian666

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
TDI
1976 Mercedes 300d (no longer)
Well, I didn't mean to turn this into a FWD vs. RWD debate, but rather generally whine that I wish TDI's could be RWD or 4motioned. Anyhoo, I love my Volvo 740 turbo and I love the sleeper aspect of it. I just don't love the fact that I don't have airbags or ABS, or 20mpg on a lucky day gas-mileage. If I could find a '91 Volvo 940se turbo with a blown engine, I'd love to put a well-modified TDI engine in there, I would; best of both worlds.

Thanks for the replies thus far.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Mount Prospect, Illinois
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon Spice Red
We have a TDI Jetta wagon, and also a BMW 330ci. The Jetta was supposed to be my wife's car, but she got a new job with a train commute, so I've gotten stuck driving the Jetta at least occasionally. I think we are going to end up getting rid of the Jetta, because I just hate driving it, due mostly to the FWD driving dynamics. This winter I've driven the Jetta more so the BMW could stay clean and unsalted, but this summer it may just sit. We did have a Passat previously, and I didn't mind driving that nearly as much, but you cannot get a manual TDI Passat. Bottom line, if you like RWD (and manuals), I really don't see you liking any of VWs offerings.

I have learned to appreciate the TDI engine, though, so at this point I'm really hoping BMW decides to bring over some of its great turbo diesel engines from Europe in 2006/2007. That might be your hope too.
 
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