Rosten rods - mass?

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TDIMeister

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Given how much time (and/or $$$) it costs for a rod R&R, I'd always just pony up the money to buy new rods, preferably better than stock if available. And it would go for ANYTHING. But that's just me. Get it done right the first time. I respect experimentalists who make their mistakes, learn from them and let others learn from them too. Wherever possible though, I just try to avoid making mistakes from willful acts in the first place.
 

TDIMeister

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The facilities manager where I work - a home mechanic by hobby and engineer by training - owns several TDIs. One ingested oil from worn turbo seals and bent the rods. Just for the sake of trying it (not to mention he has access to a massive computer-controlled MTS hydraulic press and a fully equipped machine shop, he fabricated a jig and proceeded to straighten out the rods again. The rods have been put back into the engine, I will report the outcome.
Follow up: My colleague ran the engine with the straightened bent rods and said the engine simply purrrrrs. I said I want to take a video with the hood up and engine running for proof here. It will happen soon.
 

Franko6

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It wouldn't matter if the rods were dead straight on your buddies 'purring' car. What happens with any metal. Once bent, it requires will retain some spring and attempt to return it to original shape, or in this case, it's bent shape... it would be easier to melt the rod metal back down and pour it back into the mold.

Getting parallel on a metal that has possibly fatigued, will have to be bent past centerline and just bluntly GUESSED how much the rod's 'metal memory' would be to return to a previous set, is more pure guesswork than I would do. Likely, heat would help, but then I really don't know the hardening process, or if there is any for the stock cast rods. I know that metal is more likely to crack than the 4340 rods, which have some good spring to them.

As with most gamblers, we usually hear when they win; not when they are writing checks against their losses.
 

TDIMeister

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But repairing trashed cylinder heads is perfectly OK? :/

Sorry to ask the inconvenient question, Frank; it's only to make a point. It seems to work out quite well, I'm not bashing what you do or the evidently good results.

I personally don't care whether the straightened rods in my colleague's car ended up working or not. I found it more amusing than anything else and thought I'd share the anecdote. It's just not something I would do for my own car or recommend to others, any more than it would not be my first choice to put a welded-up head into my own car.

P.S.: Engineers know quite a bit about the "spring" in metal, and we also know a thing or two about heat-affected zones in welded parts...

Edit: P.P.S.: Stock rods are forged, not cast.
 
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bengone1

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Sorry if I missed the resolution, but what has come of these rods? Were they installed in an engine?
I was delayed but took the CX Racing rods to a second machine shop with an excellent reputation and they spec'd them out as perfect...they own a Sunnen honing machine and had the approval to correct as needed so unless they hate money.
 

Franko6

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But repairing trashed cylinder heads is perfectly OK? :/

"Sorry to ask the inconvenient question, Frank; it's only to make a point. It seems to work out quite well, I'm not bashing what you do or the evidently good results... it would not be my first choice to put a welded-up head into my own car."

'Sorry'... sure thing. We don't repair 'TRASHED HEADS'... We fix repairable heads. And as for the one we spent 15 hrs on, it is still operating as installed in the vehicle. We have the welding certifications to back the credible work we do. That was done only to prove a point, as I was told, "You can't fix this one..." and then, we did. Most people don't have a clue how to weld those heads or the issues. WE KNOW.

Not only are we successful, we have so many reconditioned heads in excess of 250,000 miles, I think I should consider that the norm, not the exception. We build better than stock. That is our 'normal'.

We will not promote an experimental approach to fixing engines. Anybody is welcome to go 'off the reservation' just as far as they like, but I am not going to put a connecting rod straightener in my shop any more than I'd put in a valve straightener. I think it's hare-brained. It would take more effort than any worth. Just like a 15-hr cylinder head repair... only to prove a point, but no practical application.

Also, I presented the H-beam/ I beam information you shared on this thread. The statement from my connecting rod guru was, "It isn't fair to compare a poor H-beam design to a 'reasonable' I-beam design. The particular interest to use an H-beam was concerning torsional support. I can't do the math. That's my guru's full-time job. I think he knows exactly what he's talking about. But, just as I have said before, we see a connecting rod built for a battleship, but we are installing them in a dinghy.

Here is yet another problem that we have had explained to us most recently. The rules for claiming 'American Made' is a farce. The rules are that 50% of the product must be 'American Made' in order for the total production of the company to qualify as such. So, who is stretching the truth? I wouldn't venture to guess, but we should all know how the marketing game is played. For too many, it's whatever they can get away with.

And the other part of the process is WHO in China is making them and what clout holds them in check? As that is, in a nutshell, the controlling aspect of the Chinese manufacturing process; that it requires some sort of 'stick' to keep the product from showing the all too common 'Quality Fade'. There is a necessary motivation needed to keep the product reliably accurate. We know a company that has that clout.

We are working with a connecting rod expert who has a 45 year pedigree in his field. He has created our 4340 rods. We already have the 50.3mm rod and will have the 53.7 rod shortly. In my opinion, there are four things that really count when making a product like these: Material, Method, Accuracy, Integrity. Our guy gave us exactly what we were looking for.

I'll stop talking about it and just get it done.
 

SkyRyder55

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unfortunately a blank is not what goes in our engines. And as we have already learned, Rostens are manufactured in China. And the company that was making them was selling copycat rods at a cheaper price than Rosten was buying them for.
 

TDIsyncro

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unfortunately a blank is not what goes in our engines. And as we have already learned, Rostens are manufactured in China. And the company that was making them was selling copycat rods at a cheaper price than Rosten was buying them for.
The Rosten's were machined in Japan as well; infact, mine were machined to custom one-off specs there, but yes, it sounds like Geir got ripped off by a Chinese company. I was very disappointed to read that. The automotive industry is a tough game to play in. There rarely seems to be loyalties, everybody always wants to find a cheaper deal, and there are always companies ripping off other peoples products.
 
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Franko6

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unfortunately a blank is not what goes in our engines. And as we have already learned, Rostens are manufactured in China. And the company that was making them was selling copycat rods at a cheaper price than Rosten was buying them for.
I can say without question Rosten is no longer paying a Chinaman to make his rods since late 2014. I believe his reasoning for leaving the Japanese manufacturer was no choice of his own. I doubt the availability of the rods marked "Rosten Performance' and the 3/11/11 tsunami in Japan was 'just a coincidence'.

The Chinese were a huge mistake for Geir and for that matter, myself, as I was adversely affected by the poor quality of the Chinese rods purchased through Geir. It turned into a fiasco of junk rods.

All that said, I want everyone to know I think a lot of Geir, he's a stand-up guy and helped me through the crisis as best he could. I bear him no ill-will. No, I respect him for his actions with me. But with things looking iffy with him at that time, I made decisions for my own sake to avoid the next 'rod crisis'.

At this time, I know he designed rods that are produced by Pauter Rods, who are a well-known company,manufacturing out of California. I wish Rosten well. But when things got dicey, I wasn't so sure Rosten was going to continue. I decided to go my own way and he went his.
 
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mk3pd

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I can say without question Rosten is no longer paying a Chinaman to make his rods since late 2015. I believe his reasoning for leaving the Japanese manufacturer was no choice of his own. I doubt the availability of the rods marked "Rosten Performance' and the 3/11/11 tsunami in Japan was 'just a coincidence'.

The Chinese were a huge mistake for Geir and for that matter, myself, as I was adversely affected by the poor quality of the Chinese rods purchased through Geir. It turned into a fiasco of junk rods.

All that said, I want everyone to know I think a lot of Geir, he's a stand-up guy and helped me through the crisis as best he could. I bear him no ill-will. No, I respect him for his actions with me. But with things looking iffy with him at that time, I made decisions for my own sake to avoid the next 'rod crisis'.

At this time, I know he designed rods that are produced by Pauter Rods, who are a well-known company,manufacturing out of California. I wish Rosten well. But when things got dicey, I wasn't so sure Rosten was going to continue. I decided to go my own way and he went his.
Those rods was not a mistake from my side Frank
It was a pure scam from the Japanese factory who either sell the rods to Chinese factories in large quantities OR the Chinese factory produce rods for the Japanese.
I really don't know which one is true and i am done speculating in it.
All i know is that i purchased the rods through the Japanese Company.
My communication With Japan has been dead since late 2014.
So i decided to work together with Pauter in California.
They have made BEAUTIFUL rods according to my specifications and also to my big surprise these are selling well despite the much higher price,so obviously some people are willing to pay for quality
If anyone Wonder about the price,it's 898euro pr set
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Frank is ahead of his time :)
Oh, that's rich! That made me laugh out loud for so many reasons :D

Other than collisions between hard parts, have there been any legitimate failures of these "rods of questionable origin"?

Any spun rod bearings?
Any scored pistons from the wristpin being katywompus?
Any buckling?

Their business ethics are horrible no doubt, but have there been any product issues?
 

mk3pd

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Oh, that's rich! That made me laugh out loud for so many reasons :D

Other than collisions between hard parts, have there been any legitimate failures of these "rods of questionable origin"?

Any spun rod bearings?
Any scored pistons from the wristpin being katywompus?
Any buckling?

Their business ethics are horrible no doubt, but have there been any product issues?
Andy2 buckled a set of these rods,i don't know if it was the rods buckling or pistons that broke first though.
His engine is a "bit" on the Extreme side i would say,so perhaps he found the limit of the rods.
Frank had a New built engine with spun bearings after just a few miles,so he had several sets inspected after that and found some out of spec.
I never saw the inspection record myself,but Frank insured that the inspection was correct done,i have no reason to doubt that.
Me and him had a discussion about all of this,and apparently Frank never checked bearing clearance on the failed engine(which in my opinion is mandatory when building engines)
I believe most rods are being installed without checking clearance at all.
And also i see People bringing the rods to the machine shop for checking big end diameter,roundness and taper which is a good thing.
But it does not help much when they do not check clearance With bearings installed,crank pin diameter and so on.
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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Yep - at the end the guy who puts it all together is responsible for insuring everything is correct and finding any mistakes before damage is done. I admit that I installed my rods without checking clearances - I got lucky ;)

I'd agree that Andy's build is on the extreme side :)

Managing outside suppliers is always a tough thing to do - glad to see that you've got a new supplier that you have confidence in now.
 

Franko6

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Heh.. Ok, I corrected my typo and have come 'Back From the Future'.

The typo is funny. I am glad you enjoyed a moment, FUTB. But the business with bad rods is far from humorous. It was expensive and time-consuming. I agree, in the scheme of things, it is my fault we seized the engine. We had come to trust Geir implicitly from our previous experience and did not check these sets of rods. In previous cases, we had seen the accuracy with Rostens and became complacent. We made assumptions who was finishing the rods. I will not repeat that mistake.

I have no doubt Geir will sell his rods. Who knows? He and I want the same thing; high quality. I think we differ how that can be achieved and what it should cost in order to get it. He and I discussed some ideas, but only very briefly. Maybe it is my rods that sit on the shelf..

No matter. I repeat that where Geir is concerned, I wish him well and bear no grudge against him for what happened.

Of the dirty business that the Japanese/ Chinese pulled on Rosten, we had weights between rods that were over 10 grams off, big ends tapered by 9 tenths, undersized and oversized by as much as one thousandth and varying center-to-center lengths. In other words if it could be wrong, it was.

After the deed is done, that spun rod is ruined and no way to accurately measure it. I think we had 4 other Rosten sets to judge by and fixed what were repairable rods. Geir squared it with us and we both have moved on.

As for making mistakes, yes I am capable of the same. In the future, and I promise to wait until the future happens ;-), I know much more of this business now. I will take this valuable lesson and apply it. If something goes wrong, its all on me.

I wish best of luck for you, Geir.
 
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INA

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Posting for clarity sake.

Malaysia also makes them.
Louis ,
that is like me saying that Manhatten NY has a manufacturing sector.

Everything comes from China.
Only knock off's come from China due to the manufacturing processes implemented in that region. Taiwan , Japan , etc. usually do not share intellectual property between factories to offset the upfront cost (of course some exceptions apply). China on the other hand does.

I posted this on another forum (S2forum) and it should clear up alot of the debate with respect to connecting rod origins.
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=815162&postcount=9

Now I have been a supporter of Geir Rosten for countless years. Geir is a stand up guy and would continue to support him. The best way to tell if a connecting rod offering is a knock off or original is via the following:

  • Can the seller provide technical drawings (not chinese drawings) , .STEP or .IGES files of the designed part.
  • Buckling load calculations / tests
  • Finite Element Analysis.
  • Does the design incorporate features which only advancement in the community could have brought about e.g.
    Forced pin oiling (rifle drilled if you will)
    Connecting rod cap support (webbing @ the 2 joining faces to distribute the loads placed on the connecting rod cap)
  • Is the seller an official distributor of ARP.

Considering my background and involvement with getting H-beam forged rods for the community years ago , I was going to reply to this thread based on a few points but did not want to stir the muddy water anymore.
Now with reference to this thread , there are a few points that were brought up that need to be clarified and don't take this as criticism , just clarity.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=436660


I have the ALH/AHU 50.3 H-beam 4340 rods that are accurately made by our design engineers at Molnar Technologies. The owner’s pedigree extends 45 years in connecting rod design and is well-known in his field of expertise.
Considering the extreme cylinder pressures a TDi / IDI engine undergoes , why is your connecting rod designer "with 45 years experience" using a 15+ year old design?

  1. Why was no additional webbing done on the forging?
  2. Care to share a screen shot of the FEA done in SW (or any other CAD program)?
  3. Do you not think it is a coincidence that your offering resembles the 1029203 other offerings on alibaba of which CX Racing and Maxspeed connecting rods offer the community?
The rod is finished with the ARP 3/8" bolts with assymetrical thread design. The Assymetrical thread design is 'The Best, From The Best'. The pitch of the thread allows the holding strength of the bolt's threads to be extended over more of the threads in the rod.
...marketing marketing marketing.

ARP only makes one thread pitch for the ARP2000 line in 3/8" . It is the industry standard.
We were given a choice between the 'standard' ARP 2000 5/16" bolts or the asymmetrical ARP 3/8" bolts. After seeing the advantages, the cost difference was negligible. The next pictures detail the difference between the two bolts.
The reasoning for 5/16" bolts is due to the bore size. Have you TESTED a 3/8" TDI rod in a 79.5mm bore?

The big end is finish honed using the ARP bolts, installed and correctly torqued. The rod bolts should always remain with the same rod, as honed.
If my understanding is correct , you are:

  • importing raw forging blanks
  • installing authentic ARP 2000 3/8" hardware
  • torquing them to 50 lb/ft of torque
  • Honing them to 0.0001"
  • Tumbling the connecting rod post process
  • Installing the wrist pin bushing
  • Machining 144mm centre to centre
  • After possibly 50-80 minutes of machine time , selling for $445 USD
Is that correct?

Again,
Just looking for clarity here.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Is it just me or is this turning into a public vendor war? Choose words carefully and think about the potential outcome before proceeding. (This applies to both parties.)
 
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INA

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Is it just me or is this turning into a public vendor war? Choose words carefully and think about the potential outcome before proceeding. (This applies to both parties.)
we do not have a leg in this race. Just contributing for clarity sake.
 

andy2

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Andy2 buckled a set of these rods,i don't know if it was the rods buckling or pistons that broke first though.
His engine is a "bit" on the Extreme side i would say,so perhaps he found the limit of the rods.
Frank had a New built engine with spun bearings after just a few miles,so he had several sets inspected after that and found some out of spec.
I never saw the inspection record myself,but Frank insured that the inspection was correct done,i have no reason to doubt that.
Me and him had a discussion about all of this,and apparently Frank never checked bearing clearance on the failed engine(which in my opinion is mandatory when building engines)
I believe most rods are being installed without checking clearance at all.
And also i see People bringing the rods to the machine shop for checking big end diameter,roundness and taper which is a good thing.
But it does not help much when they do not check clearance With bearings installed,crank pin diameter and so on.

I did mention that Your rods had also seen previous severe piston to valve contact which could be taken into account.

Either way I'm glad to have you on the TDI power enthusiast front.Thank You Geir for your efforts !
 

Franko6

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I am too busy to start a war. But I will answer a few questions posed by a vendor, who calls his methods, "looking for clarity", but it feels a bit more like 'directing traffic'. What is worse, in the Field of Opinion, he states his case, strongly and with no attention to some critical details. Before he attempts clarity, he should have checked sources. For example, why didn't he ask ARP if they produce assymetric bolts? We see the obvious advantages and think that is a very valid point. He could have spoken to me...

Also, not only should a rod vendor have distributorship with ARP, but he should install and finish the rods WITH THE SAME BOLT INTENDED TO REMAIN IN THE ROD! We know that is a problem elsewhere. Also, something we see nearly everywhere else is the lack of attention to detail for the joint between rod and cap. Very few bother to break the edge of cap and rod, which is a fault.

We can provide our prints. I am not interested in doing so. Those who know me, trust me. You want to reverse engineer them? BUY A SET...

I trusted Rosten... at least we felt that way until disaster struck. Since then, I have become more interested in accuracy and I think a vendor of parts should take quality into check themselves. We ended up with some very poor rods. It is my fault for not inspecting prior to install. It is the vendor's responsibility to replace bad rods, but more than that, to make sure no bad rods hit the streets. As for Geir Rosten, I hold no grudge against him. When things went poorly for him, he did what he could to correct the problem. He left us, at that time, with no solid thought of continuing with the rod business, so we set out on our own. He has made his decision; we have made ours. I wish him well. I would hope there is no rancor simply because, at the time, he left me to my own recourse.

As for '15 year old design', we have seen modern design. Pricing pulls very hard for making cheap and calling it better. For example, what happened to Sprint cars this year is a sham; changing the requirements to I-beams when H-beams have been the standard for those engines for years. At the time the change happened, there were almost no manufacturers of I-beams for those engines, and suddenly, the racer has to pick a rod. That sounds like politics to me.

About I Beam rods; They are cheaper to build. There is an open argument what is better, and we feel affirmed we are not making something that is going to be a problem. But with the I-Beam, add cracked rod technology and it is about 30% cheaper to build. Better? You might talk to some of the FSI engine owners about the failures.

We have seen torsional support for I-beams as compared, dubious, when matched up against a properly built H-Beam rod. I know there was a comparison picture floated around showing a H-beam against an I-Beam construction. Knock it if you will, but when our technical expert examined the difference, he said "...comparing a reasonable I-beam design against a poor H-beam design is an unfair comparison. We do not build our H-Beams like that poor example, but we are also not interested in showing our competition the difference".

So, when it comes to 'clarity', I would suggest you first do some additional homework. The thread design we are using with our rods...IT IS AN ARP BOLT. Don't tell me about what you DO NOT KNOW. Not only have we tested, but the design is already built and we have rod sets sold and installed in running vehicles.

Since you do not understand the ARP assymetric thread design, perhaps you should read up on what the advantages of what the thread does and why it works so well. The thread in the connecting rod itself is identical to a stock 3/8' ARP 2000 series bolt. So, for someone with a bunch of digs on me for what I am doing wrong, why don't you back up and do a bit of homework?

The webbing? What are you talking about? The webbing is machined.

And our accuracy is 50 millionths.. not 1 ten-thousandth .00005"/ .0001" That is a two-fold improvement. We got called out on the equipment used by our manufacturer; a Sunnen AG-800, which is apparently not known by some, so then, apparently, it does not exist. Accuracy counts. Informational accuracy also counts. If you are going to 'clarify' try to get your information right.

You got the pricing of my rods wrong. We are not selling them for $445. It's $475, for the time being. But it is not the nearly double price we see with some competitors. Even then, this is an introductory offer, which cannot last, as we have already had a pricing increase on a product that is cut to the bone.

Lastly, go ahead and buy I-beams if that is what you prefer. Put some fancy name on them, if that makes them better. I think that is silly...talk about marketing. To be quite honest, whichever way, we will be happy to install our own rods in our own engine builds. We know what we are getting and appreciate the accuracy and reliability. I hope you will agree with us it is a well-engineered rod at a great price.

Btw: We continue to bring benefit to the TDI market. We now have the 2.0 TDI rods in stock with the 53.7mm big end that fits the BHW and common rail engines.
 
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