Retarded timing on first acceleration

turbonem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Location
southpark,CO (fairplay)
TDI
'02jetta wagon red
2002 jetta wagon, 5 speed
After a cold start the timing seems to be retarded similar to getting air in the supply or the case pressure regulator valve fell apart.

Case pressure valve is good.
No external leaks on the supply.

Once it accelerates it chokes,
Smokes, knocks then gets past it.

Oem fuel filter and o rings on the fuel thermostat have been changed.
No change in the timing symptoms.

Its worse on warm days.

572,000 miles.

Thoughts?
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Check all the temp sensor data to see if they are what they should be. Fuel, intake air, and coolant. On a cold start, all three should be fairly close to whatever the ambient temp is.

If you start the engine and let it idle for a minute, will it still do it when you go to accelerate? How is the engine's oil consumption? White smoke with a blue tinted haze?

Where are you coming to the conclusion that there is a timing issue? Retarded timing will make the engine run smoother and quieter (with less power). Have you checked the timing? Is the pump making any clicking sounds audible over the sound of the engine?
 

turbonem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Location
southpark,CO (fairplay)
TDI
'02jetta wagon red
Ill graph all 3 temps.
Oil compustion is low.
1 quart per 7000 miles.
Theres no clicking sounds from the pump.
Cloud on startup from guide seals.
Yes it does it randomly/ no change with quick drive off or 5 minutes of idle.
It seems like it getting air from somewhere (possibly the fuel sending unit)
But makes no difference if the tank is full or empty.
The vent valve was removed 15 years ago and it can be filled up to the neck and sill acts like its sucking air,
Once it passes it doesent do it again until it sits overnight.

It never had this symptom when restarted in a few hours.
But if it sits 10 hours @ work it will do it regularly.

It had a new longblock installed at 330k miles due to a bent #3 rod.

I put a stage 4 Malone tune/w dlc 1019 and vnt 17 in at 330 k miles with the longblock.

Ill check the temps at lunch and report back.
Thanks oilhammer!
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Heh, that tells me nothing without context (context being, what was the ambient temp of the car's surrounding at that same time?)

But since they are all fairly close, I'm betting nothing is amiss there.

You've checked the timing in Basic Settings via the graph?
 

turbonem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Location
southpark,CO (fairplay)
TDI
'02jetta wagon red
I have to checked the timing with vac com yet,
Ill check it in basic settings today.

I realize the title of my thread may be misleading.

Thats what I feel, not data.

I appreciate you work with data, not emotions.

Here is a better description of the symptom:
Car allways starts right up.
Can IDLE indefinitely without issue.

The first time it accelerates past 2000 or so rpm while driving or parked it begins to miss.

Somtimes it will run on two or 3 cylinders mabee.
Shakes and smokes.
It will not accelerate for 2-10 seconds without missing.

Once it gets past what ever this symptom is it runs fine.

It seems that its getting air in the fuel supply,
Gets past it and then its fine.

I may try to have someone start it and rev it up so I can watch the clear supply line for air.

If it is air getting into the supply once it passes it behaves and that does not reoccur until it is shut off for a few hours.

Otherwise the engine runs great.

Its just the first acceleration that it chokes.

With 572428 miles the injection pump orings or the oring in the rest of the fuel supply dont owe me anything.

But I will check the timing today in basic setting and report back.

But my suspicion its its getting air from somewhere, but thats just my gut feeling.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
OK, the part where it can idle indefinitely without issue leads me to think you have a bad oil pump.

This would not be the first time I have encountered this.

What happens is, the oil pump pressure regulator valve is stuck, at FULL pressure. When you start the engine cold, the thick oil makes the pressure skyrocket.... at idle it isn't an issue. But if you raise the RPM, it is enough to overpump the hydraulic lifters, and you hold the valves open. This will cause a misfire, which will manifest itself as a knocking and white smoke (unburnt fuel). Once it gets a little heat into the engine, and it gets past it, it smooths out, and runs fine.

I have seen this happen on various VAG engines over the years.
 

turbonem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Location
southpark,CO (fairplay)
TDI
'02jetta wagon red
That sounds very plausible.
The oil is as thick as molassas at the current temps in the am.

Also since you mentioned it,
After I rev it up,
If it dies it and I try to restart it,
It sounds like the compression is low as it spins very fast without much load on the starter.

So I think your insight is on point.
So if the lifters are pumping up,
Is it possible that there has been contact between the valves and pisions?

Would I be able too see it if I pull the valve cover or would I need to pull the cam?

Im allmost due for a timing belt anyway,
Mabee doing the head would be money well spent too.

The guides/ seals are probally due anyway.

Id like to say thank you for you expertise in the VW curiosities.

Your a wizard like the great Karnak being able to troubleshoot things thru the internet.

My hats off to you SIR!
Thanks Oilhammer!
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The valves are probably fine. The oil pump will be easier during the timing belt job, since then you can just pull the front sealing flange to get at the chain tensioner.

I would replace the chain, the tensioner, the Torx screw that holds the sprocket on the front of the oil pump, as well as the crank bolt itself and of course the front seal.

If you use the OEM type single-lip seal, get the tool to properly install it, or you may be doing it again.

Let me know if you need part numbers.
 

turbonem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Location
southpark,CO (fairplay)
TDI
'02jetta wagon red
It is normal for 570k miles, I like the fact that it's still alive.
I bought this car new,
There was 17 miles on it.

Best car I have ever had!

"Til death due us part"
Goals were as follows:
It was originally to the moon, 238,900 miles
Then the moon and back 477,800 miles
The next goal:
1,000,000 km (621,371 miles)
Thats when the odometer stops.

I just like this car that much.
Ill keep this car going as long as possible,
Way past the point it makes sense to other people who just dont understand.

Best tank ever: 820 miles

I just like this car that much.
 
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burn_your_money

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Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Location
North Bay, ON
TDI
99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
The next goal:
100,000,000 km (621,371 miles)
You got a few too many zeros on the kilometer side of the equation.

If Oilhammer's suggestion doesn't end up working (but I expect it will), I've seen a similar issue on a AAZ and it was the injectors. On the AAZ it was always within the first 10 minutes though, not the first rev which is why I would lean towards Oilhammer's diagnosis.
 

Mk3_Moe

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Sacramento
TDI
1998 Mk3 Tdi
So I just bought a Alh, it has a check engine for the glow plugs but everything was replaced and the relay etc. all I have to do is set injection timing by turning either retard way or advance way you guys think that’ll take the check engine light away?
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
IIRC, with an glow plug error after a few starts and stops it should clear, only if the error is fixed. Vag-Com is the best way to clear errors, and see what is really happening. I bought a Torque Pro app for $5or $6 and a blue tooth transmitter for another $10.00 or so. It will clear CEL's and show temperature, boost, RPM and a host of others as well. Not a perfect solution, but it will band-aid for a while. My coolant temperature sensor is acting up so I know what my engine temps are in real time. Until I get the sensor changed.
 

Mk3_Moe

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Sacramento
TDI
1998 Mk3 Tdi
Thank you so much, where did you buy the Bluetooth transmitter from because I might have to try that, one of my buddies who is a master tech at vw said there is a 50 amp fuse that might’ve been shorted out and needs to be changed and it’s only in the mk3’s so if that’s the case I should be able to clear the code no problem. The code p0380 I thought correlates with the injection pump but turns out it’s not
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen, 2014 Tiguan,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
The fuse is in the box above the battery tray.
Number 163.
Check it with a test light or volt meter.
I've had one of those fuses crack and not be that visible.
(back in the Rabbit days)
 

Mk3_Moe

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Sacramento
TDI
1998 Mk3 Tdi
The fuse is in the box above the battery tray.
Number 163.
Check it with a test light or volt meter.
I've had one of those fuses crack and not be that visible.
(back in the Rabbit days)
Everything was changed by the guy before I bought it including harnesses, relay, glow plugs. Fuse. I need the car smogged and I’m wondering why there is a code still
 

Mk3_Moe

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Sacramento
TDI
1998 Mk3 Tdi
Some codes clear after a certain number of cold starts, some have to be manually cleared.
Even to set the monitors for emissions testing may need those cold starts without the code coming back.
Check:
16764/P0380/000869 - Ross-Tech Wiki (ross-tech.com)
Yeah I figured, just wanted to make sure, I appreciate the help! Forums definitely are a big help because I need to get my car smogged and I’ll probably clear it when I get home
 

turbonem

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Location
southpark,CO (fairplay)
TDI
'02jetta wagon red
You got a few too many zeros on the kilometer side of the equation.

If Oilhammer's suggestion doesn't end up working (but I expect it will), I've seen a similar issue on a AAZ and it was the injectors. On the AAZ it was always within the first 10 minutes though, not the first rev which is why I would lean towards Oilhammer's diagnosis.
Thank you,
Corrected to 1,000,000
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Part numbers for oil pump change:

WHT-005-322 crank bolt

038-103-085-E crank seal

038-115-230 chain

06A-115-130-B tensioner

06A-115-105-B oil pump

N-028-222-2 seal

and some pumps will not come with the sprocket already on it, so:

N-903-663-03 screw
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen, 2014 Tiguan,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
It seems to be hit & miss with VCDS, but it may be easier with an app.
The one I bought was a bear to get to work and it was a bit jerky.
Only used it a few times on my 03.
Got it from Walley World.
 

Mk3_Moe

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Sacramento
TDI
1998 Mk3 Tdi
It seems to be hit & miss with VCDS, but it may be easier with an app.
The one I bought was a bear to get to work and it was a bit jerky.
Only used it a few times on my 03.
Got it from Walley World.
A lot of people say depends on the year of the car not all of them will work so that’s why I was confused
 
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