replacing steering wheel with multifunction wheel

[waldo22]

Some answers...

People said earlier that I could not use an TMC module through the CAN gateway with my MFD version D. I did this without problems at all.

Sometimes people are too quick to say "can't" The NAVI portion of the MFD D and G both can output CAN signals through pins 13 and 26 of the 26-pin connector, so that is why your TMC gets info from the Navi D, however the RADIO portion of the MFD D uses 3LB for controlling Illumination, Ignition on/off, and remote volume/scanning control, and is not CAN compatible, whereas the MFD G uses CAN for these functions and doesn't need an ILLUMINATION or REMOTE wire in order to control these functions.

Is it possible to use remote radio functions through CAN (module 451) with a MFD version D ? Is the MFD version D programmed to handle this kind of signals for remote operations?.....The MFD version D is compatible with both 3LB and CAN. Is this right ?

No! Don't confuse the Navi portion of the MFD with the radio portion. These MFD units are really two separate units in one. The navi portion of both D and G are compatible with CAN, which is why your TMC works, but the radio on the D is not. You can see by looking at the sticker on top of your nav on the pinouts that D does support CAN through the 26-pin connector, which is for the Nav portion ONLY. The power connector has no wires for CAN+/-, only S-cont, K-Wire, ILLUM, 12V, Safe, Ground, GALA, and Tel Mute. If it supported CAN, it would have the CAN+/-, and wouldn't need a K-wire for diagnostics or the ILLUM wire since that information is provided over CAN. I think S-cont info (whether ignition is on or off) is given over CAN as well. Navi G's radio should support remote control over the CAN, but ONLY SINCE you are using your TMC box to translate CAN commands into the language that the 451 is speaking. Navi G should also support control over the 3LB (that is to say the "REM" wire). EDIT: according to Lito (Tongsli) this is not true, and the 3LB controls are DISABLED on navi "G".

Again, MFD "D" radio portion is NOT CAN compatible. If you want to use steering wheel controls with it, you have to use the older 452 relay (I know it seems like 451 should be older, doesn't it???) and make sure the REM wire from the Green 6-pin connector on back of Navi is hooked up to pin 5 of the relay, and make sure that S-Cont (switched 12V or Ignition voltage, whatever you want to call it) is hooked up to pin 12 of the relay, and the ILLUM wire (for illuminating the buttons) is hooked up to pin 15 of the relay. This is the ONLY WAY to get steering controls to work with MFD "D", and it WON'T WORK with the 451, only the 452. According to Lito, this won't work with the MFD "G" as the REM output is disabled. The only way to use 451 is to have a MFD "G" and use a TMC box, otherwise it won't work.

Here is a post I wrote on this:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1332661&postcount=36

Do the 451 and 452 module also controls cruise functions ? Or is it only the radio functions it controls ?

Yes, it controls both, but I imagine that if you don't hook the cruise wires up to the 451/452 it will function from the stalk as previously, but you will have useless cruise buttons on the wheel.

Hope this helps,

Wes

 

[waldo22]

Wiring Diagrams...

UPDATE: I now have Wiring Diagrams for adding the MF steering...

T18c Pin - color/stripe - function
1 - orange/brown - CAN Low (in 2002+ cars that use 451 relay and CAN)
2 - - no connection
3 - orange/brown - CAN High (in 2002+ cars that use 451 relay and CAN)
4 - black/white - Cruise related, clip on to wire from T10s/4 or T10s/7 from signal stalk, or tap-in to T10e/3 (connector in water-tight box)
5 - lavender - REM wire for remote control of radio, to T20/11 "green" connector behind radio head unit, not needed when using 451 and CAN
6 - green/purple - K-wire (diagnostic wire) T16/7 in instrument panel wiring harness, (OBDII port), below inst. panel, left
7 - - no connection
8 - red/yellow - Cruise - tap-in to T10e/2 in water tight box
9 - brown/yellow - connect to horn relay, S1/6 (bottom left on relay panel, marked "53"), cut wire that is already connected there (it currently goes to T5b/3 on steering wheel) leaving a stub of a few inches from S1/6, and crimp T18c/9 to the stub of S1/6
10- brown - Ground, 1 in instrument panel wiring harness (Brown wires above clutch)
11- - no connection
12- black/red - 12V switched, connect to Fuse 5 in fuse panel (7.5 Amps) When connecting, you should splice this T18c/12 wire AND the wire from T5b/3 that you cut from S1/6 above together into the wire from Fuse 5. Therefore 12V switched from Fuse 5 should go to the middle of T5b/3 on cancelling ring AS WELL AS pin 12 on T18c-- T18c/12 does NOT need this w/ CAN (451), BUT T5b/3 STILL DOES!
13- red/green - 12V power, connect to fuse 40 in the fuse-panel but if you don't do that, you should use an in-line fuse
14- red/grey - Cruise - tap-in to T10e/9 in water tight box
15- grey/blue - ILLUM wire - tap in to T3c/3 in instrument panel light dimmer switch... Not needed w/ CAN (451)
16- blue - Cruise - tap-in to T10e/1 in water tight box
17- - no connection
18- yellow - Horn, T5b/1 on cancelling ring (at steering wheel) you will probably have to add this wire, it is on the far right of the yellow T5B/1 connector on the steering column as you are looking at the steering column.

Some more info:

451 is the newer relay that you use with 2002+ cars with CAN Bus. 452 is the older relay that you use with 1999, 2000, and 2001 cars that use 3LB (12V Switched, Illumination, and the REM wire). T18c is the connector (pictured below) for the 451 or 452 relay in the relay panel. T5b is the connector on the cancelling ring where the steering wheel attaches. T10s is in turn-signal stalk, T10e is in white Water-tight box in the plenum chamber on the driver's side. I got to it by laying the driver's seat all the way back and lying upside down with my head under the dash and my legs on the headrest. It was a pain in the butt (and the lower back), but I'd rather do that than removing my windshield cowling to access the white water-tight box from the top-side. I used gel-filled wire-taps to "tap in" to the wires in T10e, rather than cutting them and re-crimping.

Here is the origial signal stalk on a car WITHOUT MF steering...

Here is the T18c connector wired for the 451 relay with CAN (missing pins 5, 12, and 15). This configuration would be used with the 451 relay for cars that use CAN...

Here is the left half of the wiring diagram for T18c...

And here is the right half...

Hope this helps!

Wes

 

[BerKath]

I took it back to the salvage yard, and got the switch with cruise on-off, part no. ... 953 513 T

It could also be 8L0 953 513 T yes. Its a newer model than the S version.

 

[BerKath]

I did the steering wheel exchange yesterday. (could not wait until my 452 relay arrived!) I only used 45 minites on the job. AND, it did not **** up my airbag system either !! I now have a MF steering wheel installed with a functioning airbag. :-D I also swithed the original cruise stalk with the 8L0 953 513 S cruise stalk with only on/off button.

So far so good. I also discovered a problem (could be for some ?) that all should know about. My car has the full program with 4motion and ESP system. On cars with ESP the clock spring are different from cars without it. And it looks very different also. The part number is 1J0 959 654 J. You will find pictures on eBay. As far as I have noticed this clock spring is also for the MF steering wheel. Could somebody confirm this ?

The clock spring (1J0 959 653 C) I bought from eBay earlier is for cars without ESP and with MF steering wheel. This is now for sale ! Also my 1J0 907 487 A (451 relay).

I'm now cruising up and down the road with a beautilfull MF steering wheel without functions working at all. :-D Waiting for my 452 relay.........

 

[BerKath]

When we wait for more information I wonder what you can do from the MF steering wheel with the radio.

What excactly can you do with the steering wheel radio buttons ?

Are there hidden functions like holding buttons for more than 2 seconds and so on ?

If you have a full FIS cluster. What will show in the display ?

Is there difference for cars before and after 2001 (451 and 452 relays - software/hardware) models regarding the questions asked above here ?

 

[astonishedboy]

Is there difference for cars before and after 2001 (451 and 452 relays - software/hardware) models regarding the questions asked above here ?

I will be doing this in a 2000, and I have relay 452. I hope this is correct, otherwise, I may be interested in your 451 relay, berkath.

 

[BerKath]

I will be doing this in a 2000, and I have relay 452. I hope this is correct, otherwise, I may be interested in your 451 relay, berkath.

If you have a 452 relay AND a version D MFD you have the right equipment. This is the stuff you need for an 2000 model. I also have a 2000 model. It is a Bora (Jetta) Variant 1,9 TDI 4motion Highline.

Does your car have a original cruise control pre installed on the turn signal stalk ? My car did have..

Is your car equiped with ESP ? My car have this...

These questions are essential when you plan to buy your stuff. An MF steering wheel planned to be installed on a car without pre installed cruise control on the signal stalk will make the hole installation far more complicated. You wil then have to strip down much more of your car and need much more wiring. Also from the cars ECU to the relay (452). This wiring should already be done with cars having presinstalled cruise control on signal stalk...

Cars with pre installed cruise control without ESP wil need to have a new clock spring specially made for MF steering wheels.

The clue is : to make the install with minimal efforts you first off all need the right radio for the right car. VW RNS MFD D (also A, B and C) version for cars made before 2001 and version G for cars made after 2001. 452 relay for cars made before 2001 and 451 relay for cars made after 2001. That is because cars before 2001 uses a different comunication form (3LB) than newer cars wich uses the CAN(+/-) communication form. This means that all communication within the cars are different to and from FIS display, Cruise control, radion control and so on for cars made pre - post 2001. I find it irrellevant that you in some cases can mix CAN and 3LB to get it right. It should be done clean an the way it was ment in the beginning from VAG. All other solutions wil be disturbing too us trying to understand this!

D version should comunicate with FIS display and 452 relay right away with the wiring described in this thread. Asumed that you already had cruise control pre installed on your signal stalk and if you install the new stalk and the right clock spring for your car. (ESP or not)

There is much more to say but I leave it like this until more questions appears.

BTW: I'm a bit rusty in my english ! I hope it is possible to understand what I say ?

 

[astonishedboy]

reply to berkath

Are there hidden functions like holding buttons for more than 2 seconds and so on ?

see that little button on the side of the wheel? Don't touch that, it's the history eraser button!


I read on the ESP upgrade thread that the clockspring used with ESP has a yaw sensor with it. I assume this is why it is different than the MF clockspring. Makes sense, since this info would be needed by the ESP system.

So far so good. I also discovered a problem (could be for some ?) that all should know about. My car has the full program with 4motion and ESP system. On cars with ESP the clock spring are different from cars without it. And it looks very different also. The part number is 1J0 959 654 J. You will find pictures on eBay. As far as I have noticed this clock spring is also for the MF steering wheel. Could somebody confirm this ?

Does anybody have a part no. for connector T18c and any other needed connectors?

 

[astonishedboy]

Thanks for providing these parn no.'s Waldo

If you have to add the MF steering to a car that doesn't have it, the relay plate for the 451/452 relay is part no. 4A0 937 529.

Is this aka the T18c connector?

You will need 12 repair wires for the 1999.5-2001 cars, or 14 for the 2002+ cars (if you want to go ahead and add the CAN wires as well).
000 979 133 x 5 ends or 7 for 2002+ (if this is the wire with the single connector)
000 979 135 x 3 for either year (if this is the wire with the double connector)
000 979 114 x 4 for either year (if this is the end with the big brass connector)
Sorry but other than the CAN wires (pins 1&3) and 5, 12, and 15 (REM, S-cont, and ILLUM), I don't know the pinouts of the rest of the wires.

Waldo, I found your post! so I copied this pertinent info over to this thread I'm searching for some wiring diagrams now.

 

[waldo22]

T18c Connector

Sure thing, I'm glad I finally am able to contribute something useful to this forum.

Yes, the "relay plate" that I mentioned (part no. 4A0 937 529) is the T18c connector.

Sorry to not be more specific.

I still don't have a good idea of what wires go where. The best info I found is in this thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=37353&page=2

but the diagrams are all gone. I just bought the Bently manuals on CD, so hopefully that will help. In the meantime, if you can say exactly what goes where, I'd appreciate it!

Wes

 

[astonishedboy]

I don't have navi, so my wiring will be a little different.

I got the relay plate at a junkyard, with a 451 relay the other day.
If anyone needs a 451 relay, I've got an extra. Unfortunately, I had to cut the harness, and I will still need the repair wires.

 

[waldo22]

Wiring should be similar

If you have a 451 relay, I'm assuming you have a 2002 or newer car. Your radio should use CAN for communication, which actually should be easier to wire up.

If you still have 4 or 5 inches of wire coming off the back of the relay plate (T18c) harness, you can just use 18-22 guage (red) butt crimps. You can get them at Lowe's hardware in the Electrician's section.

You'll need to hook up 11 wires. Pins 1 and 3 are CAN low and high, respectively.

I'll try and post the other Pinouts ASAP.

Wes

 

[astonishedboy]

Wes,
I'm using the 452 relay. 2000 golf.

I just have a 451 relay available.

Thanks for the tip about the wires, but what kind of connector will I need on the other end of the wire? (not T18c side)

 

[waldo22]

I updated my poat above...

I've added the wiring diagrams, finally!

I don't know the repair wire numbers for the cancelling ring, but you should be able to use wire taps for the connectors from the stalk, and you shouldn't have to add any to the stalk, so I think all you need is the wire from T18c to the cancelling ring, which I don't have. Sorry.

As long as you have 4-5 inches of wire coming out of the T18c connector, you should be able to use 18-22 ga. butt crimps and not need any repair wires.

Good luck,

Wes

 

[BerKath]

After installation of MF steering wheel.

Ooops ! I just discovered that my horn is not functioning ! I checked my wiring inside the wheel and I cant find anything wrong. Anybody who have a clue what the problem might be ? Could it be fixed with VAG-COM ?

 

[astonishedboy]

18. KEEP THE KEY TURNED and reconnect the battery terminal
19. Keeping the key turned will keep any power surges out of the airbag circuit. This is how Bentley's describes how to do this properly.

I am worried about the Airbag Control Module. I have the suspect CM that ross-tech warns about in my Golf. another member told not to remove the airbag with the key in ignition, since this will cause the light to come on. I have latest Vag-Com, but still would like to avoid triggering an airbag light.

If I get the light, will the dealer be able to clear it if Vagcom can't?

 

[astonishedboy]

I went and dug myself into this, and it is almost finished. I've a few more wires to connect, and some questions about them.

Pin 9 on the relay 452. according to the wiring diagram this goes to S1/6 - the horn relay. there is already a wire there. should I just tap into this.

Pin 18 on relay 452. This should lead to T5b/1, connector for the clockspring. There is already a wire in this position.

Pin 10 on relay 452. This should be grounded and connected to T5b/2. this position on T5b/2 is empty.

according to the wiring diagram, there are two wires from T18c to T5b. but T5b only has one position available. I can't figure out what's up here.

My thought is the the wire at S1/6 leads to T5b/1 for horn function. why is the new wire for the horn relay needed?

thanks.

 

[tongsli]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=356649&postcount=30

From page 2 of this thread. See if this clears anything up for you.

 

[astonishedboy]

Well, I still have not managed to make this work. I've got nothing with the new steering wheel since it has been installed.

If the wiring was wrong, but the power wire was right, wouldn't I at least have lights on the steering wheel? If I am not getting any power to the steering wheel, could it be a damaged 452 relay? and not a wiring issue?

I'm working on a 2000 Golf. From what I have read, I've got everything wired correctly. At most, I was confused with T18c/18 this is to go to T5b/1. T5b connector is numbered strangely... 5,4,3,1,2. There is only one open spot on this connector, and it is 2 on the end, not 1. I tried running the wire to both locations.

Can someone verify that the Pinouts posted by Waldo on page 5 of this thread are correct? I will dig into my wiring and double check all connections.

Thanks

 

[tongsli]

E45 - Cruise Control Stalk has 4 wires that go to T10S-ten pin connector, next to steering column.

T10s/6 - sw/bl wire that connects to J453 and eventuall back to the fuse panel
T10s/7 - ge wire that connects to T10e/3 connector in plenum chamber
T10s/4 - ge wire that connects to T18b/4 of J453
T10s/5 - gn wire that connects to T10e/9 connector in plenum chamber


RELOCATE
T10s/3 goes to T18b/8 of the 18-pin connector
T10s/2 goes to T18b/16 of the 18 pin connector

 

[madelgado]

Hello, I was not following this thread... I made this mod for my European Passat 3BG 2001 one year ago and just want to share something which may help. First relay that I bought was 451 (1J0 907 487 A). I do not have navi nor telephone, so I did not connect can-bus... The MF wheel did not work and I could not even connect to it using vag-com. Then tested a borrowed 452 relay (487 B) and worked perfectly...

If I was a normal person I would have bought 452 relay... but my goal was to make work the 451 so first thing I did was to connect to can-bus. And yes, that solved part of the problem... now I could connect with vag-com, but with the codings that I found in openobd.org, only the speed part of the buttons worked, but not the audio...

In the end, I tried several codings, and with coding: 00008 it works perfectly . I just thought that maybe someone has replaced the relay just because of this. Hope it helps!

 

[astonishedboy]

E45 - Cruise Control Stalk has 4 wires that go to T10S-ten pin connector, next to steering column.

T10s/6 - sw/bl wire that connects to J453 and eventuall back to the fuse panel
T10s/7 - ge wire that connects to T10e/3 connector in plenum chamber
T10s/4 - ge wire that connects to T18b/4 of J453
T10s/5 - gn wire that connects to T10e/9 connector in plenum chamber

Lito, i was pretty close. I had no wire at T10s/5. diagram shows no connection to T10s/5, but shows T10e/9 wired to T18c/14

T10s/7, T10s/4 meet at T10e/3, Orig. and MFsteering config. Or should T10s/4 only go to T18c/4

RELOCATE
T10s/3 goes to T18b/8 of the 18-pin connector
T10s/2 goes to T18b/16 of the 18 pin connector

I had this right!
I can't figure out fuse 40 (20a horn) there is a wire going in, but nothing coming out. I'm was going to wire it to T18c/13.

Thanks Madelgado. Good information. I hope I don't have to get in that deep.

 

[tongsli]

I don't have diagrams at work but T10s/4 eventually ends up at T18b/4 of J453 regardless of where you connect it.

T10e/9 SHOULD also connect to T18b/4. Double check the diagrams and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[astonishedboy]

I've got everything just like the diagram, except for two connections:

T18c/13 - it looks like this goes to fuse 40 (20z horn) with some connections on the way there. I have this at the threaded connection below the relay panel (2nd from left marked '30') as there is no wire coming from fuse 40.

T10s/5 - I'll run this to T10e/9 as you stated above. This was how it was originally.

Time to put humpty back together again. I think the bolt on my steering wheel has expired (5 time reuse)

 

[tongsli]

Is T18C/13 for the dual tone horn? If so, you already have the horns in your car, right?

 

[astonishedboy]

With the new wheel, the horn doesn't work. The new relay 452 was routed between the horn and the horn relay. T18c/9 to S1/6 on the horn relay. originally cancelling ring T5b/3 to S1/6. don't ask me why.

Should I have kept the horn circuit in place, and added on the new relay around this?

I thought T18c/13 was for Power. I think this is the major problem, no power. Where Can i get switched power?

 

[tongsli]

T18c/13 is power, but not for the horn. The horn takes power from the Relay 53 pin 2 or as labeled on the wiring diagrams S2/2

T5b/3 went to S1/6 because that's how it's supposed to be without the multifunction wheel.

T5b/3 gets RE-Routed to T18b/12 then T18b/9 goes to S1/6

Did you run T5b/3 from the canceling ring to T18b/12?

Did you run S1/6 to T18b/9?

 

[pghPAtdi]

Frank, i think you found your new mentor

Now stop calling me at odd hours looking for wiring diagrams and cups of tartar sauce

Dave

 

[astonishedboy]

T5b/3 gets RE-Routed to T18b/12 then T18b/9 goes to S1/6

Did you run T5b/3 from the canceling ring to T18b/12?

Did you run S1/6 to T18b/9?

Yes. T18b/12 i have this going to three places. T5b/3, T10s/6, and fuse 5 (7.5A).

Please explain to me T10s/5 and T18b/13.

Thanks,
Frank

 

[tongsli]

I've got everything just like the diagram, except for two connections:

T18c/13 - it looks like this goes to fuse 40 (20z horn) with some connections on the way there. I have this at the threaded connection below the relay panel (2nd from left marked '30') as there is no wire coming from fuse 40.

T10s/5 - I'll run this to T10e/9 as you stated above. This was how it was originally.

Time to put humpty back together again. I think the bolt on my steering wheel has expired (5 time reuse)

T18c/13 is power, but not for the horn. The horn takes power from the Relay 53 pin 2 or as labeled on the wiring diagrams S2/2

T5b/3 went to S1/6 because that's how it's supposed to be without the multifunction wheel.

T5b/3 gets RE-Routed to T18b/12 then T18b/9 goes to S1/6

Did you run T5b/3 from the canceling ring to T18b/12?

Did you run S1/6 to T18b/9?

....................................................................................

T18c/13 goes from power (Fuse 40) to the J453 relay. That's it. Not much to explain. Follow the wiring diagram. It does NOT go to the power bar under the relay plate!