Replacing Cam

[DanG144]

Rockcrawler has very fluently and ably stated my own take on the matter. With communication abilities that good, and the fact that he turns wrenches, I must confess it is hard to believe he is a degreed engineer - my own personal statistical history would make this doubtful!

I would rather spend a little more and do rational actions that MIGHT have a positive impact than repeat actions over and over that have been proven ineffective.

However, I can totally understand the viewpoint that simply controlling assembly, using a good assembly lube, using a break in oil, using a break in procedure, then using an oil that is shown to protect these engines by used oil analysis IS DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and might be effective at producing a long lived cam in a BRM engine.

So far no one I have helped or worked with has chosen to go as far as I presently intend to go with my own when the time comes - Colt parkerized BEW cam (I would use this in a BRM as well as in my BEW), oiling mods, permanent bolting, bearing shell mods, bearing cap mods- the works.

As I am at 70 k miles, my cam is in pretty fair shape, and I only put on about 15-18k miles per year, I will probably have the benefit of a lot of input from this community before my cam is worn out - and I will adjust my actions based on what I learn.

I talked to Franko6 this week, and he is only aware of one bearing modification that has gone 50 k miles so far. But so far so good. Time will be the judge.

 

[schoolsout]

Well, you and RockCrawler have more knowledge about this stuff than I. The only thing that will hold me back from the Colt and whatever modded stuff Frank quotes me on will be price.

 

[DanG144]

The price of things gives many of us pause.

As I said before, don't lose any sleep over choosing which of the paths you are investigating to take. All of them are worthy paths.

 

[schoolsout]

I appreciate everyone's input...

 

[Rockcrawler]

Dan,
Thanks.... I think, lol. I'm more of a tech sales guy now/biz development, but I've done tons of technical troubleshooting, tooling and repair design over the yrs. I can assemble/safetywire a turbine engine and have designed/fabbed/built/driven winning race vehicles

VW's are hardly the only cars with issues,but it can seem that way on this forum. Lots of modern GM LS engines and ecotechs have their oiling challenges. It gets magnified in my current motorsports world. The current ride has a tweaked GM Supercharged 3.8, monster torque right off idle

 

[redlm]

Not to step on toes, but the wear on my camshaft wouldn't have come from an aggressive profile. A narrow lobe, yes.

It took 4 years to wear out my original, I figure it would be at least 5 more to see if the new installation is any better (Bora BRM cam). At that point the car will have 450,000+ miles-and at least one PD New Jetta passed 415,000 miles with the original cam. The cost benefits of the extra work begin to pale on what is basically a very nice economy car. And the cost of replacing a cam at 200,000 is nothing compared to somany other ownership factors, including depreciation.

 

[schoolsout]

I'm almost to the point of ordering from Bora. Can't seem to get pricing on anything else

 

[Jnitrofish]

Have you called Frank? Even though he is very busy he has always taken the time to answer every question I have thrown at him, even with people breathing down his neck in his shop.

Not that I am trying to steer you away from Aaron (BleachedBora), I have ordered cam kits from him and he excels at customer service as well.

 

[schoolsout]

I've called and e-mailed...only response/convo was the very first time.
I understand people get busy. I'm in sales, myself. I sell commercial trucks, so I know how things get. I'm not upset...I'm just antsy. I'm just surprised that I've received no response since the first convo we've had.
I'm at 105,700 miles and under the assumption my cam is pretty bad. I firmly believe it is...
I do 6-700 miles/week and have an opportunity to remedy this situation next week (in Frank's defense, I think he is under assumption I'm not doing anything until at least the 18th) and can get a Bora kit by then. I know the cost of the Bora kit. From what Frank has said and what I've heard, he can't deliver by then...not a problem...- just want to know a ballpark cost to weigh my options. Sooner is better, but sometimes better can beat sooner, know what I mean?
I like Franks's mods and the Colt cam. That said, I don't have any idea if Frank's prod is 200, 700, 1000, 20,000 dollars more. I want this problem solved.

I want to know my options at this point. I've done the DMF 3 weeks ago. Luckily, Dan has helped with the EGR cooler and will help with this project. For that, I'm very grateful. Its just that cot is in my mind more than normal.

The only thing I'm looking for at this point is something to use for comparison. There is a reason Franko6/Colt's product caught my eye. I want to do what I perceive as best for my car. I become a nervous wreck reading this site, but it has opened my eyes to the downfalls of my car. I've been running the wrong damn oil for 95k miles and only know so because of this site...I want to do my car right as I see myself driving this thing for a long time to come.


I just want to make an educated decision soon. Not trying to ruffle feathers, but just respond to an inquiry, some how, some way...$

To be continued....

PS...I've had a few beers, settled down, and typed all of this on a blackberry o have mercy on my soul.

A an aside, the MFD on my ride recorded 48.2mpg from N. Chas to Columbia doing 70mph tonight. Not bad, I gues

 

[thesilverjet]

I emailed colt cams last night just out of curiosity and they replied within 24 hours. I gave them the year make and model of my car with the mods and asked for an estimate. Here is what they sent:

To Derek,
Our VW TDI PD performance grind runs:
256° duration .363 Lift
The cost is $425.00 US this includes the return shipping in the continental USA .

Due to the extreme wear problem these cams have (because of the poor re-entry ramp)
apparent on all models we recommend you remove your cam as soon as possible before it is worn beyond repair.
If you notice excessive wear please measure height of lobe if it is less than 2.417” it has gone to far.
We will have brand new blank billets available on the 1st of the New Year 2011
The cost will be approx. $649.00 US.
Below is a more detailed write up from a customer.
Thanks,
Geoff

I sent an email back asking more info about if I need to replace lifters and bearings at the same time. Maybe try contacting colt cams directly. They seem to have good customer service. Hope this helps.

 

[Henrick]

So they're remanufacturing old/worn cams? I'd better be getting a brand new OEM one.

 

[redlm]

I don't have a problem with reground cams, but taking one out and having the car down for the count wouldn't have been acceptable to me.

 

[schoolsout]

thanks for that info.

 

[thesilverjet]

I commute a long way to work every day so I think I'm going with a new one. Not that much more.

 

[Jnitrofish]

Reground (and reconditioned) cams are like new cams, mine is spectacular and has served me well for the last 9k miles (since late July).

I sent an email back asking more info about if I need to replace lifters and bearings at the same time.

Yes, yes, and yes. Those will be worn in a way that reflects the wear on your old cam and will cause the new cam to wear rapidly like your old cam. Cam failure is not just the cam, its everything it comes in contact with.

 

[Henrick]

LOL. 9k miles is nothing.

 

[schoolsout]

I would love to do the Colt cam, but I till have not heard anything from Frank. Again, I sell stuff for a living. If I'm waiting on a quote from a supplier, I let the cutomer know what is going on. . It's just a little disheartening for my taste at this point in time. I will not go around Frank as he is the guy I originally talked to about the Colt product.

That said, I will continue to wait, but at some point a direction will be chosen.

 

[Jnitrofish]

LOL. 9k miles is nothing.

Hey troll, it's47,520,000 feet.

 

[Mach1]

Schoolout, I dont think it is out of the question to ring up Frank, I have been talking to him this last week about cams..

He is very easy to talk to..and very, very knowledgeable..

Hey, things happen..

 

[schoolsout]

Schoolout, I dont think it is out of the question to ring up Frank, I have been talking to him this last week about cams..

He is very easy to talk to..and very, very knowledgeable..


Hey, things happen..

I left him a message Friday afternoon at 5pm EST, along with an email or two.
...and he was a pleasure to talk to the first phone convo I had with him.

 

[Mach1]

I am not saying these guys are above the law, but it says alot about Frank and RC Jeff, they are sometimes difficult to get ahold of..But like I can say, well worth the wait...They got to be good!

Heck sometimes I am tough to get a hold of..

I guess you tried..

 

[schoolsout]

No worries...
patiently waiting

this site and the people on it have been a valuable resource...I've just been worried (maybe too much) about my car

 

[Crosley]

113k miles on my 2006 Jetta. Never had the camshaft cover off. I am waiting too

 

[Rockcrawler]

Not to step on toes, but the wear on my camshaft wouldn't have come from an aggressive profile. A narrow lobe, yes.

Not stepping on toes, you are offering a viewpoint. It seems Geoff at Colt believes differently and I'd say he's got quite a degree of credibility on the subject.

To me, it's just math, physics, fluid dynamics. The lobe interfaces with the follower and in theory there is a sufficient film of oil between the two to reduce friction and let the two slide across each other without actual contact, like hydroplaning. The sharper the point of the lobe, the greater the risk that the lobe can "pierce" thru the film and make contact all else being equal. A wider lobe would reduce this risk, but so does a rounder point to the lobe or as Geoff calls it, a smoother entry profile. A lesser oil will also allow easier penetration. It's all about maintaining sufficient film to avoid actual metal to metal contact.

over simplified, a knifelike lobe may serve to scrape the oil away. A spoon shaped lobe stands a better shape of sliding over the film of oil without digging thru it.

BTW, Ben often works with Frank and is using all of Frank's methods etc, so he might be another person to speak with

http://www.vwtdisales.com/vw/Welcome.html

 

[redlm]

Most people commenting on the issue have good credibility and experience-and I include the engineers at VW or whomever designed the cam.

I've not spoken to anyone at Colt, but another person mentioned the BRM cam was ground to a "solid lifter" profile. My wear pattern just doesn't seem that way to me, nor my experience with other cams (prematurely worn or otherwise) using hydraulic or solid lifters and fairly aggressive profiles.

 

[mattds]

I emailed colt cams last night just out of curiosity and they replied within 24 hours. I gave them the year make and model of my car with the mods and asked for an estimate. Here is what they sent:

To Derek,
Our VW TDI PD performance grind runs:
256° duration .363 Lift
The cost is $425.00 US this includes the return shipping in the continental USA .

Due to the extreme wear problem these cams have (because of the poor re-entry ramp)
apparent on all models we recommend you remove your cam as soon as possible before it is worn beyond repair.
If you notice excessive wear please measure height of lobe if it is less than 2.417” it has gone to far.
We will have brand new blank billets available on the 1st of the New Year 2011
The cost will be approx. $649.00 US.




- did hey give you an indication of the anticipated hp/tq gains?

 

[Henrick]

Not stepping on toes, you are offering a viewpoint. It seems Geoff at Colt believes differently and I'd say he's got quite a degree of credibility on the subject.

To me, it's just math, physics, fluid dynamics. The lobe interfaces with the follower and in theory there is a sufficient film of oil between the two to reduce friction and let the two slide across each other without actual contact, like hydroplaning. The sharper the point of the lobe, the greater the risk that the lobe can "pierce" thru the film and make contact all else being equal. A wider lobe would reduce this risk, but so does a rounder point to the lobe or as Geoff calls it, a smoother entry profile. A lesser oil will also allow easier penetration. It's all about maintaining sufficient film to avoid actual metal to metal contact.

over simplified, a knifelike lobe may serve to scrape the oil away. A spoon shaped lobe stands a better shape of sliding over the film of oil without digging thru it.

BTW, Ben often works with Frank and is using all of Frank's methods etc, so he might be another person to speak with

http://www.vwtdisales.com/vw/Welcome.html

OK. Then why does the most often it wear out only one or two lobes while others look brand new at the time of failure?

 

[Rockcrawler]

OK. Then why does the most often it wear out only one or two lobes while others look brand new at the time of failure?

Please, make no mistake, I'm not claiming to have all of the answers, there are a myriad of variables in any production vehicle. Lobe geometry is only one of them.

I can speculate on what areas have some amount of "tolerance" in their design. If tolerances stack up in the wrong direction, then one lobe/follower of many (perceived to be the same) will fail first.

There can be variation in the raw material the lifters are made from. Alloys have an AMS spec typically and there is a range of ingredients that fall within the zone of the spec. so some followers/lifters could be softer than others just from this.

The heat treating of the alloys will produce results within an acceptable zone, some harder than others.

lifter bore size tolerances pinching the lifter from design/intended rotation. Thermal expansion variation of related parts due to variations in materials, cooling jackets and local head/block thickness.

The cam heat treating process can vary, depending on methods (induction coil geometry) or quenching, some lobes could see different results than others. it's all little stuff, but it can add up.

There's the possibility of variability in the oil feed design for each lobe, some may get more oil feed than others.

There can be variabilty in the water jacket design, where one part on the engine is cooled better than others.

The valve springs have tension that falls in a range, they will not all test the exact same lbs per inch.

regardless of these variables, and many more, the concept of improving overall operation by a better designed geometry is not lost. Same with using a better oil and making sure your intervals are within reason. All we can do is look at the problem and ask ourselves what variables can we reasonbly/feasibly control? No sense beating ourselves in the head over the stuff we can't control.

good oil
good intervals
frequent inspection
buzz the engine less
best known practices at cam replacement
choose your own preferred cam design from what's available on the market IE "Factory parts" shorter lift, better profile, choose your weapon.

There's a reason a top fuel motor can make 6000 HP, every minute variable is controlled to the nth degree. Not practical with mass production engines. So they shoot for a sweet spot.... and sometimes miss.

 

[Franko6]

Ok,

I sped through this thread @2am, because that is when I usually shut down...
some of my thoughts...

Anybody who doesn't use an assembly lube is completely against every builder's methodology. The assembly lube is the protection against the metal to metal contact at initial start up.

Also, those who don't think a break-in oil is not important should just Google, "Flat Tappet Break-in" and start reading the entries from companies like Crane, Comp Cams, Edlebrock, etc. The drum-beat is resoundingly the same and is exactly what I recommend.

A common magazine, Popular Mechanics, Oct 2010 issue talks about the lowered ZDDP issue and the issues it causes. Mike Allen, the Car Clinic expert is no Smokey Yunick, but he's not all bad. Check out his Car Clinic spot.

In brief break-in is like this:

Immediate startup is a must. Raise RPMs to 2,000-2500 (for our diesels), warm engine and do initial break-in of 1/2 hr. That is the critical time for cam/ lifter surface mating. I use Joe Gibbs assembly lube and JOe Gibbs BR oil because I think it's the best stuff I can find... at any price.

Change oil after 1/2 hr,change filter, refill with J.G... run for 500 miles, keeping pressure on the engine. The ZDDP in the JG oil is effective under heat and load. Don't go crazy, but keep the engine working.

Resume your synthetic oil after 500 miles, last change at 2500 then resume normal oil change cycle.

Now, about my expertise...

At the age of 12 1/2, I was invited to dune buggy the Lancaster,CA area. It's been a life-long relationship. I call myself an amateur... "for the love of it."

I have no professional designations, but a lot hard-earned lessons. I learn from the mistakes I make.

I work with two principles in mind...

"Do it once and do it right"
"Build it like you're gonna buy it"

Colt Cams is a very good cam. His theory is sound and the product is worth the cost. I am shipping cams in bulk to him. The only problem is getting enough cams. Geoff rejects about 30% of the cams I send him.

Regrinding cams is a well-founded and highly acceptable method of reworking cams. Using new billet is more for the intent of a higher lift cam; not that it would make a better Stage II cam. Also, the stock VW OEM cam has a profile that should be for a solid lifter, not a hydraulic lifter. The profile improvement by Geoff makes a world of difference.

Geoff does not harden cams. He uses what is already there. He parkerizes them as an aide to break-in.

I just sent Geoff about 120 lbs of cams. I expect them back late next week. I am hoping to be able to fill some of the requests for his cams.

I just got back contracting for Schaeffer's Oil to represent them. I think their 9000 5-40 Molybdenum based oil is some of the best stuff I've found for the PD engines. I will be offering it at jobber rate. It is not only a very good oil, it is also at a very good price. It avoids the pitfalls of the ZDDP oils by using Molybdenum as it's lubricity additive. It's the slipperiest stuff there is.

I am still in evolution with some designing, but what I can say is that what I have done, I feel very good about and is sound engineering and theory. The lower bearing shell is a concern I hope to deal with. The mods for the upper shell is well-founded and accurate method according to protocol for oiling of a journal. The replacement cam and rocker bolts are engineered under professional consultation for materials, length and torque settings.

Other than that, although I have not personally gotten dynos, the reaction to the BEW cam installed into BRM engines has been great. Setting the torsion value to a -.5 instead of the accepted .5-.0 has shown increased fuel economy.

The ALH Stage II Colt cams have been dyno'd by Aldergras of Dubwerx, Cincinnatti, OH. The dynos showed excellent hp and torque improvements. The negative adjustment of the cam also improved performance on the ALH as it appears to do for the PD motors. I do not know the amount of negative degree change Alergras used.

Schoolsout, I hope that will satisfy some of your interest.

 

[Franko6]

Btw: If Colt Cams will accept your cam, it usually takes about $60 to get it there. If you can find a new cam right now, the BRM's are about $400; BEW's about $300.

I am offering the Colt Cams for $650. If you have a cam that can be reground, I will refund $100. Geoff is the final word on if a cam is used or rejected. Each cam sent to Geoff is marked as to owner, so there is no mistake about refunds.

I NEED BRM AND BEW CAMS!