Replace the incorrect tensioner ASAP! (pics)

[DeafBug]

MaxThrust asked for help to replace the compensation kit he got from Harv. Okay I won the job.

He came over to my house last Thursday. I started working on it and the first thing I noticed was that I can't find the TDC mark by looking in the window. I had to use a mirror to see where it went. It was way too advanced. As you can see in the picture below. I had to remove the airbox so I could take that picture.

Notice the two green circles as they are the marks. It is way too far apart. It may not appear far apart in the picture but they are.

Then I notice the tensioner notches are far apart as shown in the picture below. Note the green circles again. It is off from a mirror.

Finally I pulled the tensioner off and inspected it. I noticed the crack on the back.

The first picture was with the flash on in the garage. The second was in the kitchen with no flash as I wanted a different lighting.

Once I put the car back together and we went for a drive. MaxThrust told me that it is a lot quieter and it ride properly. Even though with the Vag-Com, the injection timing was low, in the bottom half. So we went for a longer drive to fully warm it up and all that.

So in sum, replace that incorrect tensioner ASAP before you cause any further damage to the engine. MaxThrust said that Harv mentioned that it should be replaced NOW! I have heard that people are going to put it off until they are near 60K then they will replace it. As this as far as I know being one of the first person that had replaced the incorrect tensioner is my proof that you should not wait any longer.

If you have any questions or anything else, MaxThrust can answer them once he gets home. That is all I can tell you now.

A side note. Yes, we have heard you in that Pathetic tensioner thread. Congrats! Those people made your voice heard. Now anyone, please don't litter this thread with those conversations. Take it somewhere else. This is not the point of the thread.

 

[runonbeer]

I've seen a number of cracked tensioners in my time too, they were not as far off as that one though.

 

[Herm TDI]

....Take it somewhere else. This is not the point of the thread.

Agree'
I have found a number of TB tensioners that have cracked as depicted. I am coming to the conclusion that this is the type of failure mode for the tensioner. In other words the "normal failure mode" when a TB has a catistropic failure(normal being the most frequesnt type of failure). I think what happens is the crack propagates with thermale and machanical loads. Then the tensioner has a total failure as has been discribed by so many owners who have had the unfortunate experiance of a TB failure.
The scary part being that the crack can not be seen with the tensioner installed.

As a side note This is exactly why the tensioner must be replaced along with the TB. This thread says it all and eliminates any question of re-using a TB tensioner that "Feels and looks OK".

 

[MOGolf]

Note that the cracked one is NOT one of the 'bad' tensioners from Harv. Those 'bad' ones had a blue part (like the off to the side in the picture). This one has a brown piece suggesting it is genuine part from VW. Either that, or all tensioners from Harv are suspect.

Parts break. Just another example of periodic inspection preventing disaster.

 

[Dieselgeek]

Note that the cracked one is NOT one of the 'bad' tensioners from Harv. Those 'bad' ones had a blue part (like the off to the side in the picture). This one has a brown piece suggesting it is genuine part from VW. Either that, or all tensioners from Harv are suspect.

Hey Everyone,

In the initial threads on whether a tensioner was the 80K or earlier 60K part, I stated that seal color was an identifying feature of either tensioner. This is now incorrect as Litens the manufacturer has swapped seal colors on the two different tensioners. Seal color is NOT predictive as to which part number the tensioner is if that makes sense. The correct Litens tensioner has one of two stamped numbers on the back side which rests against the engine block. The aftermarket version of the 038 109 243N tensioner has 979592 stamped into it. The factory VW dealer tensioner has 038 109 243N stamped into it. These part numbers are the only reliable way to tell whether the tensioner is the old style 038 109 243G or the new long life 038 109 243N. The picture in the first post of this thread clearly shows that the cracked tensioner was the old style tensioner since the Litens number is not 979592.

To sum up:

80/100K tensioner part numbers: 038 109 243N OR 979592

40/60K part numbers 038 109 243G (5spd) 038 109 243H (Auto)

Remember, the aftermarket version of the 038 109 243N tensioner is 979592 and was made on the same machines in the same Canadian factory to the same specs as the O.E. branded part. It is the only tensioner that should be used with the 038 109 119M long life belt made by Gates in Germany.

 

[MOGolf]

Thanks for clearing that up. I know a lot of people were going by color alone as the deciding factor. Unfortunately, that means removing the tensioner to deterimine if 'good' or 'bad'.

 

[Harvieux]

Hi Folks, I know for a fact that all the mis-marked Lemforder tensioner's I sold had the blue seal just like the one Jim displayed on the pictures upon initial discovery back in Februrary of this year. I still have 15-20 of the mismarked tensioner's I kept in case I had to litigate and all have the blue seal. I am now wondering if it's possible that the blue seal changes colour when it gets hot. The other thing I notice about the brown seal tensioner pictured above is the fact that the seperation of the alignment marks are further than the relaxed/non-tensioned mis-marked tensioner. In other words it's spring seems to be that of the stronger "N" tensioner. This can be verified by comparing the mis-marked tensioner with the aftermarket 979592 Litens unit. I will try and post pictures tomorrow of the two tensioners side by side so you can see first hand what I am referring to. Later!

 

[Herm TDI]

One other situation I've encountered that I know has caused tensioner failure is incorrect final tension adjustment. The tensioner was turned "counter-clockwise" to align the tooth & notch.
This TB & tensioner was installed by a "stealership" pro.
I'll hunt up this particuallar tensioner and post a photo.
I just don't want to have this thread start another panic thread.

 

[Harvieux]

Hi Deafbug, BTW, I finally got in contact with Michelle Ulmer of Minneapolis. She was the final customer that was due to recieve the comp. pkg. I can provide you with her contact information if you would like to try and do her replacement. I am also proud to announce that all customer's affected by this matter has been compensated. Later!

 

[DeafBug]

Thanks, Harv. Yeah, why don't you PM/email me her information. I was about to try to dig it out from my archives this week. Glad that I don't have to.

 

[MOGolf]

I am now wondering if it's possible that the blue seal changes colour when it gets hot.

My degree in chemistry says: I don't think so. There would be other changes in this material than just changing from blue color to brown colour. It is too uniform in colour to be caused by heat during operation. It was definitely manufactured brown.

 

[Harvieux]

Hi Folks, Here is a link to the two tensioners. The one on the left is the new aftermarket "N" #979592 and the one on the right is the mis-marked tensioner. Notice how the # 979592 tensioner's alignment marks are quite a bit further apart as compared to the mis-marked tensioner on the right? Later!

http://home.pacbell.net/wrmltd/tens_align.jpg

 

[MaxThrust]

Here is the rest of the story of my tensioner adventure. I will warn you that these pictures are not for the faint of heart, they are scary in the extreme.

I would also like to state that what you are about to see is not due to anything that DeafBug did, or did not, do while changing my timing belt. The outcome of this adventure was the result of a faulty roller purchased from a VW dealership. There was no way to tell and absolutely no warning prior to my world, along with the valves and pistons, crashing. I was traveling on a shoestring budget and up visiting my parents in WI. I took one day extra and went to MSP to have DeafBug change out my 'bad' tensioner and thought I would replace all the surrounding pieces to insure I would not have to worry about any of this for at least the next couple of years. I was also looking forward to getting this car paid off in the next couple of years....it wasn't going to happen that way.

For what it's worth, Brad and his wife are awesome people and I would highly recommend he do the work on your car. He is meticulous in the extreme and really knows what he is doing. He also has all the right tools and takes no short cuts nor does he use makeshift devices to get the work done.

I now own a 2003 1.8T Jetta GLS with the Sport Package. It sure runs nice, but eats fuel at an alarming rate. I am also very upside down in a loan after having to eat the cost of a 'dead' trade in, but I had no choice, I was 2000 miles from home and had to be to work in three days. I owed what my previous car was worth, probably a bit less. I also got a good price on the new car, but took it in the shorts because it wasn't running....can't blame them on that one. I am also currently pursuing VW for any compensation I can get. I had called VWoA customer service, but they told me to get bent....and weren't even that nice about the whole deal. I took the failed roller to the local service manager and one brief look from him let me know all I needed. He is in full agreement that the part failed through no fault of myself or DeafBug and is going to bring it to the attention of the district tech rep to see if anything can be done. At the very least I will be refunded for the cost of the parts bought from VW.....yippee!

First, just a bit of proof of Brad's timing belt experience.

Here is a shot showing how far the timing was advanced.

This shows how far the tensioner was advanced....it had been checked 10,000 miles previously and was advanced at that time also. It refused to hold a setting.

My old tensioner versus the new tensioner.

New Belt.

The new belt after 20 miles.

The part that caused all this grief.

What happens to a TDI when timing belt related failures occur.

I had brand new tires also.....sigh.

I really don't want this to scare people from getting the proper maintenance done on their cars. If you have one of the 'bad' tensioners, get it out of there now. I had 22,000 miles on this one and I am sure it wasn't going to last much longer. Keep in mind, that both Harvieux and Brad are upstanding people and this was no fault of either one....it was just a fluke. I could not afford to have this happen now...I really can't afford the results, but it would do no good to blame those who are blameless, and in fact, went above and beyond the call of duty trying to make things right. VW on the other hand supplied a faulty part and so far are refusing to make it right on their end. I considered getting something other than another VW, but in the end I really liked my Jetta and maybe this will give me more clout in getting them to make things right....or I could nickel and dime them to death on my new warranty. (Just kidding, I hope I never need to use it on my new car.)

If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask them. Also, Brad and I both have other pictures that we can share with the group as needed.

Mike

PS Now that I own a 1.8T Sport, am I still allowed to hang with the Diesel guys? (I really wanted another Diesel, but I couldn't locate one in time....no matter who I called.) Speaking of which, while trying to locate a new car at a reasonable price, I could not get the dealership to give me any kind of reasonable price on anything they had in stock. I called my local service manager and within five minutes the MSP dealership called me back and had dropped the price $6,000 on the new car. Not bad for a quickie phone call. Gary at Beaudry, if you read this, you rock buddy! If anyone is so inclined to have work done at a dealership and are in or around Twosun, AZ, do yourself a favor and go see the guys at Beaudry. They have bent over backwards for me every time I have dealt with them.

 

[Rustynuts]

Mike, what a mess. Hope you get this sorted, and regarding driving a gasser? Don't let that stop you hanging round here, mate. Always welcome!

 

[runonbeer]

I'm really confused...when did all that happen???

 

[DeafBug]

I'm really confused...when did all that happen???

I have left that out originally as I didn't want to say it as it is not related to the tensioner but an defective part. So it should be really a separate thread but....

Anyway, MaxThrust wanted to replace the rollers. He bought them at the dealership. So I put them in while I was at it. Since I had oil and no filter and he wanted to change the oil before heading back to AZ. We went to the dealership that is about 15 miles from my house. Got the stuff and on the way back, about 4 miles from home, the car acted up. Pulled over and pop the hood. Saw the shredded belt. Towed it to my garage. I started removing parts from the bottom as the view from the top looked okay. Once I removed the lower metal timing belt cover, I saw the roller resting on the crank pulley. We took the roller out and I noticed burn marks on the roller and turning it told us that it seized.

So my educated guess was that the roller seized, a few seconds later the bolt broke, probably too much pressure on on the roller as the belt was still turning. Once the bolt broke, it dropped and the belt was riding on the edge of the roller causing it to shred. Now with no belt the engine kept on running, causing further damage.

 

[pikawel]

Wow, thank god I'm getting mine changed in about 20 minutes.

I was actually just searching to make sure I didn't lose any parts of the kit (Belt and box of accessories... I hope that's everything

 

[Harvieux]

Hi Mike, So what you are saying is that you had Deafbug do your complete 100K mile TB job and that dealer supplied upgraded large "M" roller failed or seized causing this catostrophic result? (I was writing this before I noticed that Deafbug confirmed my guess)

I truly do fear for guys such as Deafbug, DBW, MOGolf, Runobeer, jsrmonster, and the many more including myself who are subject to these man made failure possibilities or even the very rare possibility of a mistake being made during these, rather critical, tb replacement procedures. It's part of life or maybe better described as "sh!t happens".

Mike, I truly feel your pain and understand that you were under the gun to get back to twosun but, a 1.8T? May I have permission to bash you till the cow's come home

? Somehow, I got this feeling that you will be back into a TDI in the not too distant future. Thank God you got such a great discount which may help the dreaded upside down scenario, eh?

On a different note, I performed about 25 or so in-house A4 TB changes of the infamous mis-marked tensioner's before it's discovery back in Feb. and estimate that I have monitored about 14-18 of these up to the time compensation was issued. I must say that in most every case, the alignment of the suspect tensioner was very uniform during a wide range of mileages since installation. There may have been a couple that needed 1/8" to 3/16" alignment. Of course, I didn't remove any of the suspect tensioner's to check for cracks but, even though all seems to look good, I strongly suggest that these suspect tensioner's be replaced ASAP due to the compensation packages having all been distributed and therefore releasing liability against any future catostrophic failure. Later!

 

[MaxThrust]

After replacing the tensioner, timing belt, and all the rollers. The large roller is the one that failed....brand new, from VW. I am working on getting some form of compensation, but am not holding my breath.

Mike

 

[comsult]

OK, I'm due a timing belt and tensioner replacement from the Original. Is there any part numbers I should check. The dealership is going to do the work. (No garage, or access to one at this time).
My dealership has been outstanding in their service of my car.
So I would like to know, when I talk to the service rep., do I specifically ask for a part number. They have in the past shown me the unopened parts boxes before servicing my vehicle, when I asked them to do so.
I was going to wait an extra 8K to have this done on a regular service, but it looks like I'll go in and have the timing belt changed on the scheduled KM rather than wait.
Greg.

 

[MaxThrust]

If you are having the work done by the dealership....you should have no worries, even if it fails. In the rare case that something were to go wrong, you would be covered by VWoA because you had the work done in the shop. I can't afford that kind of work in a shop....but certainly couldn't afford to have 'bad' parts supplied by VW either.

Bottom line, you have none of these worries. Get your work done with confidence. You pay a hefty premium.....many times what I paid, but part of that is insurance against what happened to me.

Side note: I have done my own work on vehicles for about 30 years and this is the first time I have ever had a problem doing (or having it done privately) the work myself. Not a bad track record and the problem was not the result of faulty workmanship, it was a faulty part. This could happen to anyone at anytime, dealer or not.

Mike

 

[DeafBug]

There are pros and cons for having work done at the dealership especially timing belt.

Going to the dealer:
Pros: work done at the dealership where they have insurance to back up their work and parts.

Cons: job may not be done correctly especially inj. timing, they have tendency of reusing parts, bolts are not replaced, not everything is torqued correctly (i.e. see 'engine dropped' posts), costing an arm and leg if water pump is done as well as leaking seals. They don't report other issues they find while working on the car. Costs a lot of money for timing belt change.

Going to a TB guru:
Pros: Job done correctly with ALL parts you supplied replaced. Inj. timing is correctly set. Water pump and seals replaced is generally included in labor cost. Everything is torqued correctly. Any other issues found while working on car is reported to owner. Cheap cost to have TB replaced.

Cons: You are at risk for providing your own parts *if* a part is bad. The odds are what for a bad part out of the box. You are SOL if you do have a bad part.



I have done over 100 timing belts and this is the first that I had to witness myself. I am sure DBW, HermTDI and Car54 has done far more than I have as they were doing it longer and they have no issues on defective parts. Except Car54 had two cases where a large roller had gone bad but the roller fell apart, ball bearings came out, the bolt stayed on. MaxThrust had the bolt broke off. If the bolt didn't break off, I am sure the engine will be spared.

 

[ymz]

Just make sure that they replace ALL the needed bolts as well as the water pump. Sure, they guarantee their work, but sometimes dealers have been known to try and wiggle their way out of repairs that should be their responsibility... (ie: your e-codes may have put too much strain on the electrical system, leading to premature wear on other components, so we won't cover your engine breaking up even though we torqued the camshaft sprocket incorrectly, etc...)

You can figure out the complete parts list from DieselGeek's site or Roseland's site and discuss with the service manager. As to whether or not they torque everything properly... that's why you have the guarantee...

Good luck,

Yuri.

 

[MaxThrust]

<font color="blue"> Mike, I truly feel your pain and understand that you were under the gun to get back to twosun but, a 1.8T? May I have permission to bash you till the cow's come home ? Somehow, I got this feeling that you will be back into a TDI in the not too distant future. Thank God you got such a great discount which may help the dreaded upside down scenario, eh?
</font>

I really tried to get a Diesel, but this car was the best I could hope for under the circumstances. You can kick my butt...go ahead..... I am having fun driving it....it's like a go-kart only really damned fast.

Mike