Renewable energy thread

[nwdiver]

Putting in 5 acres of solar pannels would cost 50x the cost of the EV alone (80k usd) just in wire alone!

??? Why on Earth would you need 5 acres of solar panels? That would be 20,000kW (~30,000,000kWh/yr) not 10kW (15,000kWh/yr). 10kW can easily cover 100% of the use (car & home) for most people. A thrifty DIY'r can install 10kW of solar for ~$7k. A lifetime supply of energy for $7,000. Over 20 years that's ~300,000kWh. An EV can go ~1M miles on 300,000kWh. You'd need to burn 20,000 gallons of diesel to drive ~1M miles at a cost of $100,000. $100,000 for diesel or $7,000 for solar.

My point was that in terms of miles driven you get more miles from 1kW ~3 solar panels (~1,500kWh/yr, ~4,000 miles) of solar as you would from an acre of soybeans (~70 gallons, ~3,500 miles). Which.... which is kinda crazy. So @pkhoury 3 300w solar panels will yield more miles per year in an EV than an entire acre of soybeans would in a TDI.

Paying ~$0.10/mile for diesel instead of ~$0.02/mile for electric or < $0.01/mile from solar is 'thousands of times' cheaper? Do you drive less than a mile a week? If that's true I agree that an EV makes little sense for you.

 

[pkhoury]

??? Why on Earth would you need 5 acres of solar panels? That would be 20,000kW (~30,000,000kWh/yr) not 10kW (15,000kWh/yr). 10kW can easily cover 100% of the use (car & home) for most people. A thrifty DIY'r can install 10kW of solar for ~$7k. A lifetime supply of energy for $7,000. Over 20 years that's ~300,000kWh. An EV can go ~1M miles on 300,000kWh. You'd need to burn 20,000 gallons of diesel to drive ~1M miles at a cost of $100,000. $100,000 for diesel or $7,000 for solar.

Several questions for you Chris, since I know you're also college educated. Where are your citations for the above information? One thing that was instilled into us practically daily in grad school - cite your sources. Otherwise, I'm concerned you're just making up these numbers as you go.

My point was that in terms of miles driven you get more miles from 1kW ~3 solar panels (~1,500kWh/yr, ~4,000 miles) of solar as you would from an acre of soybeans (~70 gallons, ~3,500 miles). Which.... which is kinda crazy. So @pkhoury 3 300w solar panels will yield more miles per year in an EV than an entire acre of soybeans would in a TDI.

My main concern, which I bring up over and over, is that I can't seem to find an EV that gets comparable range, towing of at least 3000 pounds, and will cost me under $10K. I'm done having car payments, and I know a lot of others who have the same sentiment.

Paying ~$0.10/mile for diesel instead of ~$0.02/mile for electric or < $0.01/mile from solar is 'thousands of times' cheaper? Do you drive less than a mile a week? If that's true I agree that an EV makes little sense for you.

Depends - some days, I might drive 3 miles to go to the post office and back. Other days, like yesterday, I might put in 232 miles. I don't know how many miles I've already driven this year, but I think I'm in the 15-20K mile range, of which at least a third of that is towing long distances.

I just did a quick google search - this site claims 2000 miles for the Tesla Model 3, but of course, no towing capacity in the US.
Tesla here says 3500 pounds for the model Y, but it's a staggering $1300 for that option. I just installed a replacement Bosal hitch last night. Took about two hours of my time on wet ground/mud to swap hitches, and mine cost around $350, when idparts used to sell them. Buy from pfjones, and I'm looking at around $450 after shipping. That's still a far cry from $1300.

Then the cost of the car.


Of course, this is assuming someone gets 3.24%, depending on their credit worthiness. Except for the t-reg/Audi owners, I don't think any of us paid more than $30K-ish for their TDI (not sure what Passats were when new).

Lastly - I have yet to see Tesla offer estimated ranges with towing. I know with both my common rail and my ALH, I'm looking at 21-31mpg while towing, depending on what I'm towing. If it's a parachute, like my livestock trailer, definitely 21-23mpg. My 4x6 home built trailer? 30-33mpg when loaded with about 1500 pounds of feed.

I just checked this map to see where Tesla Supercharging stations are on I-10, and they're a little over 100 miles apart. I guess it's right to assume I should be able to get at least 150-200 miles per charge on a Model Y, towing about 2000-3000 at 75-80mph with the AC going full blast?

 

[nwdiver]

Several questions for you Chris, since I know you're also college educated. Where are your citations for the above information? One thing that was instilled into us practically daily in grad school - cite your sources. Otherwise, I'm concerned you're just making up these numbers as you go.

PVWatts

Estimates the energy production and cost of energy of grid-connected photovoltaic (PV) energy systems throughout the world. It allows homeowners, small building owners, installers and manufacturers to easily develop estimates of the performance of potential PV installations

pvwatts.nrel.gov

You can put together a ~10kW system for ~$7k here. And that's BEFORE the tax credit.

SignatureSolar.com: Solar Panels, DIY Off-Grid Solar, Server Rack Battery for Solar, Solar Inverters

Signature Solar provides solar panels & components and full kits for off-grid, grid-tie and custom diy solar systems. Providing Solar 101 and hands on experience within the solar industry. Quality inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Holding best in class...

signaturesolar.com

Isn't the cost of fuel basically a car payment? How much to you waste annually buying diesel?

 

[Mongler98]

I'm trying to compare apples to apples. You are not.

 

[pkhoury]

PVWatts

Estimates the energy production and cost of energy of grid-connected photovoltaic (PV) energy systems throughout the world. It allows homeowners, small building owners, installers and manufacturers to easily develop estimates of the performance of potential PV installations

pvwatts.nrel.gov

You can put together a ~10kW system for ~$7k here. And that's BEFORE the tax credit.

SignatureSolar.com: Solar Panels, DIY Off-Grid Solar, Server Rack Battery for Solar, Solar Inverters

Signature Solar provides solar panels & components and full kits for off-grid, grid-tie and custom diy solar systems. Providing Solar 101 and hands on experience within the solar industry. Quality inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Holding best in class...

signaturesolar.com

Isn't the cost of fuel basically a car payment? How much to you waste annually buying diesel?

I just looked at my current spreadsheet and I've driven roughly 17,000 miles so far for calendar year 2022, at a cost of about $2400. This breaks down to about $480 a month. This is still a far cry from $1000/mo to pay for a Tesla. You said the cost of fuel is basically a car payment. Are you implying that I can get free use at Tesla Supercharging stations?

Because this chart states I would only see about 3 miles per hour, using a NEMA 5-15 charger. Before you say something stupid, no, I do not have capacity to add a NEMA 14-50 charger without getting a new line of service from the co-op.

I stand corrected. I might be able to use the 15 amp version of this. I still haven't done research to see if this comes with the car, but I'm assuming it's a free option? Perhaps you can shed some light for all of us.

Oh, and posting a link to signature solar, for whom you probably get commissions, without a specific setup, doesn't help. LifePO4 batteries alone are around $1.5-2K. Not sure where you're going to get a 10kW system for $7k installed...

 

[pkhoury]

I'm trying to compare apples to apples. You are not.

Same here. I honestly don't think he's ever owned a TDI before, and he just put that in his profile to take some of the trollishness away. I contacted Tesla just for $hits and giggles about 3 or 4 years ago. Talked to TWO people there, and they both agreed that based on my situation as a rural customer, that an EV was not a good fit for me. And I'd imagine the same goes for the majority of us on TDIclub, otherwise, we would've all sold or traded in our oil burners long ago.

 

[nwdiver]

I'm trying to compare apples to apples. You are not.

???? Is miles to miles not apples to apples ????

 

[Mongler98]

Acres of bio fuel production vs an acre of solar or dang even if he did 1/3 an acre would be almost enough to be equivalent to 5 acres of fuel for 1 season. It would still cost 200k not including maintenance.
I dont see why $200 a year in seeds would even come close!

 

[nwdiver]

I stand corrected. I might be able to use the 15 amp version of this. I still haven't done research to see if this comes with the car, but I'm assuming it's a free option? Perhaps you can shed some light for all of us.

There's a lot between NEMA 5-15 and a NEMA 14-50. My preference for budget daily charging is a NEMA 6-20. I added 50 miles of range to my car from my toy 5kW solar system working around the house today at a cost of $0 with a NEMA 6-20. You don't need to spend $400 on a wall connector.

Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

Use a variety of household outlets to charge your Tesla with a Gen 2 NEMA Adapter. Simply attach the appropriate adapter to your Mobile Connector, plug into the corresponding outlet and begin charging. Adapter Max Distance Gained Per Hour of Charge Model S Model 3 Model X Model Y 5-15 3...

shop.tesla.com

 

[nwdiver]

Acres of bio fuel production vs an acre of solar or dang even if he did 1/3 an acre would be almost enough to be equivalent to 5 acres of fuel for 1 season. It would still cost 200k not including maintenance.
I dont see why $200 a year in seeds would even come close!

I'm trying to compare apples to apples or miles to miles. You are not.

How many solar panels would you need to drive 3500 miles/yr with an EV vs how many acres of soybeans to drive 3500 miles/yr in a TDI. Miles to Miles. ~3 solar panels vs 1 acre yields the same number of annual miles. Miles to Miles

 

[pkhoury]

???? Is miles to miles not apples to apples ????

No, it isn't. You're comparing an electric propulsion vehicle to a compression-ignition ICE. Not in the same league. Now if the acquisition costs were equal across the board, then yes, this would be comparing apples to apples.

 

[turbobrick240]

I believe that he owned a tdi. He's clearly a bright guy- can't see why he'd fabricate that. I think we just have to accept that EVs aren't practical or affordable for 100% of the public at this time. Which is fine. Not 100% of the public want EVs today. And there aren't enough to go around if they did. Nothing wrong with waiting for prices to come down a bit, and availability and selection to go up. In the meantime, solar PV is cheap today.

 

[pkhoury]

There's a lot between NEMA 5-15 and a NEMA 14-50. My preference for budget daily charging is a NEMA 6-20. I added 50 miles of range to my car from my toy 5kW solar system working around the house today at a cost of $0 with a NEMA 6-20. You don't need to spend $400 on a wall connector.

Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

Use a variety of household outlets to charge your Tesla with a Gen 2 NEMA Adapter. Simply attach the appropriate adapter to your Mobile Connector, plug into the corresponding outlet and begin charging. Adapter Max Distance Gained Per Hour of Charge Model S Model 3 Model X Model Y 5-15 3...

shop.tesla.com

I don't even have safe capacity left over for a NEMA 6-20. I have a 250 amp line of service. That goes to power two homes and the ranch. I like to keep a safety margin, but I'm pretty tapped out right now. I can't even add a new hot water heater to my pole barn. Why? I need a new line of service.

 

[nwdiver]

No, it isn't. You're comparing an electric propulsion vehicle to a compression-ignition ICE. Not in the same league. Now if the acquisition costs were equal across the board, then yes, this would be comparing apples to apples.

So miles to miles is an unfair comparison???? What metric would you prefer?

 

[pkhoury]

I believe that he owned a tdi. He's clearly a bright guy- can't see why he'd fabricate that. I think we just have to accept that EVs aren't practical or affordable for 100% of the public at this time. Which is fine. Not 100% of the public want EVs today. And there aren't enough to go around if they did. Nothing wrong with waiting for prices to come down a bit, and availability and selection to go up. In the meantime, solar PV is cheap today.

Believe me Ben, I'd love to do solar. I talked with our co-op about it, and the break-even point was so far in the distance, that it made more sense to do capital improvements, like install a barn and a well, than get solar. Worked out, because without the well, I'd have no animals (30,000 gallons of rainwater can't sustain two adults and over 100 animals for longer than a few months, anyways). I'd love to even do solar myself, but I have bad back problems, and installation is a problem. Then comes the cost of batteries. I've thought of building my own LifePO4 packs, but it's tedious and still expensive.

 

[pkhoury]

So miles to miles is an unfair comparison???? What metric would you prefer?

I specifically stated if acquisition costs were the same, then go for it. So now you're agreeing that there is a disparity in costs between currently owning a diesel vehicle, and then transitioning to an EV?

 

[nwdiver]

I specifically stated if acquisition costs were the same, then go for it. So now you're agreeing that there is a disparity in costs between currently owning a diesel vehicle, and then transitioning to an EV?

Depends on the diesel and the EV. You can get a used Bolt for $20k. A used LEAF for <$10k. I seem to recall new TDIs costing a lot more than that.

So now you're agreeing there's a SIGNIFICANT disparity in operating costs ($/mile) between a diesel and an EV?

And you don't need batteries to have solar. >95% of solar installs are just grid-tie. You'll be credited ~$0.03/kWh for energy you export.

 

[pkhoury]

Depends on the diesel and the EV. You can get a used Bolt for $20k. A used LEAF for <$10k. I seem to recall new TDIs costing a lot more than that.

So now you're agreeing there's a SIGNIFICANT disparity in operating costs ($/mile) between a diesel and an EV?

I never disagreed there was a significant disparity between diesel and an EV, with the EV being substantially HIGHER, accounting for acquisition costs.

You're comparing apples to pears again, Chris. I'm not sure how a used LEAF will help me. I looked up the range of a 2015 Nissan Leaf using google, and it said 84 miles. Round trip to the grocery store for me is about 60. And I don't even want to ask the towing capacity of a car with such an abysmal towing rate. And I'm still going to disagree with Ben - I really don't think you've owned a TDI before.

And you don't need batteries to have solar. >95% of solar installs are just grid-tie. You'll be credited ~$0.03/kWh for energy you export.

So where would the break-even point be, then? The other problem is also where I would mount the panels and associated installation, unless you're going to drive out here and do it.

 

[turbobrick240]

Let's try to be civil here. Straight up calling another member a liar is uncouth.

 

[pkhoury]

Let's try to be civil here. Straight up calling another member a liar is uncouth.

Understood, but don't you think it's convenient that he joined this forum a couple of days after dieselgate was announced, and has been trying to convince everyone that solar/EV is the only way of life since then? I don't think he's said anything positive about a TDI, even when he supposedly owned one.

 

[turbobrick240]

It's probably not coincidental, but A LOT of members joined in the immediate aftermath from dieselgate. For many different reasons. And he works in the solar industry, so it's not exactly a shocker that he's an advocate for renewables. I actually think it's admirable that he's willing to absorb the slings and arrows from(some) disgruntled diesel owners for his convictions. I know that I invested in Tesla several years ago in no small part due to his persuasive posts. So I'm grateful for that.

 

[nwdiver]

I really don't think you've owned a TDI before.

You're wrong about everything else. At least you're consistent

I bought a used TDI in 2010 because I wanted the most efficient car I could afford. IIRC it was ~$10k used. I was tired to wasting $ on a truck that got 18mpg on a good day. ~50mpg was great... but you know what's even better? 90mpge because that's how numbers work. I checked. As a bonus the energy for that 90mpge can now come from my roof. The only thing my TDI could do that my EV can't is drive >4 hours without stopping... which I never did anyway because peeing in a bottle while driving usually makes mess.

 

[pkhoury]

You're wrong about everything else. At least you're consistent

I bought a used TDI in 2010 because I wanted the most efficient car I could afford. IIRC it was ~$10k used. I was tired to wasting $ on a truck that got 18mpg on a good day. ~50mpg was great... but you know what's even better? 90mpge because that's how numbers work. I checked. As a bonus the energy for that 90mpge can now come from my roof. The only thing my TDI could do that my EV can't is drive >4 hours without stopping... which I never did anyway because peeing in a bottle while driving usually makes mess.

Understood. I can go 4 hours without a break, but I guess that's the beauty of rural Texas. If I really really need to go, I just pull over and find a bush., At least, that's what everyone else I know does. It ultimately still comes down to money in the end. I can afford to plunk down $10K on a used car, but I can't really justify $60K up front for a new EV. And I feel you on trucks. At least you got 18mpg. My truck gets me about 12-13mpg, but I only use it for bringing home hay, usually around 4-6 bales at a time. My needs changed in the past two years, and my truck maybe sees 1000 miles a year now, if that.

 

[J_dude]

Annnd... yet another thread is turning into TDI vs EV... I thought this was about RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCES... haha

Also, do normal people take breaks on road trips??? Lol. Shucks I just drove 19 hrs last weekend (round, 9.5 each way), only stopped once on the way there and once on the way back for a quick bathroom stop (oh and neither stop was for fuel).
But then, I don’t bat an eye at a four hour trip, and I’ve done 12 hour drives in one shot too (but that was in a Buick, them things are like driving your couch down the highway)

 

[pkhoury]

Annnd... yet another thread is turning into TDI vs EV... I thought this was about RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCES... haha

Also, do normal people take breaks on road trips??? Lol. Shucks I just drove 19 hrs last weekend (round, 9.5 each way), only stopped once on the way there and once on the way back for a quick bathroom stop (oh and neither stop was for fuel).
But then, I don’t bat an eye at a four hour trip, and I’ve done 12 hour drives in one shot too (but that was in a Buick, them things are like driving your couch down the highway)

Hahaha I don't envy you. My last long trip with the F-450 was to bring home a Beetle TDI (that I sold like two weeks ago). Driving that is like sitting on an uncomfortable couch (bench seats, single cab, so napping at a rest stop is out of the question). Yeah, I don't drive as much as I used to in one stretch, but it depends - I've been known to rack up 700-800 miles in a day, keeping stops to a minimum and planned well in advance (knowing where I was going to stop and for how long).

 

[Lightflyer1]

This was an interesting tidbit.

The world’s biggest hydrogen fuel cell EV has started work in South Africa

Green hydrogen is made on-site to power the enormous truck's fuel cells.

arstechnica.com

 

[turbobrick240]

This was an interesting tidbit.

The world’s biggest hydrogen fuel cell EV has started work in South Africa

Green hydrogen is made on-site to power the enormous truck's fuel cells.

arstechnica.com

Pretty cool that they're going to be making the hydrogen from a giant solar array.

 

[Mongler98]

I'm sure nearly every tech would work great of the reason ot was done was for saving the earth and an almost unlimited funding was given. The issue is we are greedy primates.

 

[turbobrick240]

Primates capable of walking on the moon. And one day other planets. Human nature is what it is, the key is to harness those qualities to achieve great things. Wind and solar are the fastest growing energy sectors largely because they're the cheapest.

 

[turbobrick240]

How California's Salton Sea could become the world's largest Lithium supplier: