Relay 109 like symptoms but not - need help!

[wonneber]

In a couple weeks ask her if the car has been OK.
If she says yes, ask her if she is more confident that she will not get stuck.

 

[BobnOH]

I don't think it's the ECU. Believe it's likely a wire/connect, maybe one of the ones run direct from the IP to the ECU, runs in a bundle under the battery. That's just a WAG, but that's where my old '99 bad wire was, bit of an outlier.
These type issues are often hard to diagnose, try a different approach.
The hard start issue is fixed with a new ECU map, the socketing is hardware so they can more easily access the thing.

 

[dadsdiesel]

Believe it's likely a wire/connect, maybe one of the ones run direct from the IP to the ECU, runs in a bundle under the battery.

The only thing with that is - when the car dies I've tried running a jumper wire directly from the battery to the IP and it still won't start.

Also how would that wire explain not having a check engine light when the key is on? Just curious - learning as I go here.

I understand the mapping and socketing difference - I feel the socketing process somehow caused all this mess. But that's just an wild guess on my part.

All I am going with at this point is the car was dead when I removed the original ECU then fired right up when installing the replacement ECU.

 

[Mpaw]

From your fault codes I suspect you have wiring/Connector(s) open circuit/short to earth / bad earth on your fuel solenoid / quality adjuster (N109 / N146).
These are difficult to find. Personally I would run separate parallel cables to them, with nice fresh N1XXs and connectors, to ground and fuses etc. ... and check that there's no ground on the other side of their fuses

 

[dadsdiesel]

From your fault codes I suspect you have wiring/Connector(s) open circuit/short to earth / bad earth on your fuel solenoid / quality adjuster (N109 / N146).
These are difficult to find. Personally I would run separate parallel cables to them, with nice fresh N1XXs and connectors, to ground and fuses etc. ... and check that there's no ground on the other side of their fuses

Thanks for that.

I only got those fault codes posted once at the very beginning of this saga - not a code since over a year.

But I will give your ideas a try - thanks!

 

[VictorTSB]

From my experience with the ECU socketing, it caused most of the same codes that you got, it'd make no sense for the new ecu to run flawlessly but the chipped/socketed one to fail if it was the wiring that had the issues.

 

[dadsdiesel]

From my experience with the ECU socketing, it caused most of the same codes that you got, it'd make no sense for the new ecu to run flawlessly but the chipped/socketed one to fail if it was the wiring that had the issues.

That is my consensus as of right now. I’m still kind of anxious when I drive it and have been staying close to home with it. Will take me a while to fully trust it again….

I did have the battery out recently and did check the main ground there but never any other wires in that area as mentioned. Now it would be like chasing a ghost I think.

I am going to move forward with the ECU as the culprit. The only thing that bothers me is never finding a definitive cause. If it is in fact something inside the ECU I will never know I guess.

What a journey this has been!

 

[VictorTSB]

The only thing that bothers me is never finding a definitive cause. If it is in fact something inside the ECU I will never know I guess

If you feel like findin out and still got a sharp eye (or a magnifying glass ) you can open the ECU and grab a set of tweezers to gently pry sideways where the pins of the sockets are soldered to the ECU, thats how i found the cracked connections and fixed it.

I’m still kind of anxious when I drive it and have been staying close to home with it. Will take me a while to fully trust it again….

I think after a whole bunch of dailying ive already restored my trust with my car, im going on a roadtrip with it tomorrow, hope you can restore your trust with your car soon aswell so you can properly enjoy it

 

[Mpaw]

I didn't read it all properly - I thought you had eliminated the ECU. Still
Dry joints are really crap on a car and often lead to such symptoms in electronic systems. A common fault with PCBs is that the solder was heated a bit too much and the copper track comes off the board, cracking the conductive track slightly - can be quite difficult to see. If you find one, it's possible to remove the plastic off the track, with e.g a fibre glass brush, and solder over it (it should be then sprayed with a non-conducive plastic). Before you trash the ECU, it might be worth heating all the solder joints one by one with an iron to see if the solder behaves like it should when it's molten - sometimes this is enough to clear a fault (don't overheat the joints, and ideally remove ICs in sockets before heating - take a photo first, and take 'anti-static precautions'). A surprising number of 'electronic faults' can be corrected by visual inspection.

 

[dadsdiesel]

I didn't read it all properly - I thought you had eliminated the ECU. Still
Dry joints are really crap on a car and often lead to such symptoms in electronic systems. A common fault with PCBs is that the solder was heated a bit too much and the copper track comes off the board, cracking the conductive track slightly - can be quite difficult to see. If you find one, it's possible to remove the plastic off the track, with e.g a fibre glass brush, and solder over it (it should be then sprayed with a non-conducive plastic). Before you trash the ECU, it might be worth heating all the solder joints one by one with an iron to see if the solder behaves like it should when it's molten - sometimes this is enough to clear a fault (don't overheat the joints, and ideally remove ICs in sockets before heating - take a photo first, and take 'anti-static precautions'). A surprising number of 'electronic faults' can be corrected by visual inspection.

I know nothing about electronics et al but what you are saying makes sense to me. After all my troubleshooting in the car itself I came to the conclusion that the issue had to be with the ECU.

I have no idea what the actual process is to socket these old ECUs but in my mind, when applying heat enough to solder something on the board, other things could heat up too much possibly and cause a problem.

I used a very well know and respected tuner for just this reason. I figured they had a lot of experience which would mitigate any problems. But, things can happen especially when working with such old equipment.

I don't have the confidence to look into this myself but I would really like to find someone who might be able to help me. I have a lot of money tied up into this ECU and would really like to enjoy the tune and hot start fix I paid for.

If you or anyone knows of someone who might be able to help me please let me know. I am more than happy to pay an evaluation fee and also what it would cost to fix it.

At this point I am gun shy and will not get the new eBay ECU socketed. It works and the car goes down the road now. Only If I could find a good "cheap" ECU would I send it out to be socketed and transfer my chips.

 

[BobnOH]

Thanks for that.

I only got those fault codes posted once at the very beginning of this saga - not a code since over a year.

But I will give your ideas a try - thanks!

Good, our work here is done.
Socketing is not something that should create issues. Open it up and have a look, decent chance there is a cold solder joint or a cooked component..

 

[VictorTSB]

If you or anyone knows of someone who might be able to help me please let me know. I am more than happy to pay an evaluation fee and also what it would cost to fix it.

id offer to do it but i assume shipping to Spain is quite expensive and im sure you dont want to keep throwing money into this

Only If I could find a good "cheap" ECU would I send it out to be socketed and transfer my chips.

ECUs for these cars are practically free here in Europe (i got 3 for 50 euro) so if you figure out that shipping works out to be cheap enough i could try to find one matching with your part number for around 20-30 euro for the part itself (they usually go for that price when not sold in bundles)

 

[VictorTSB]

I have no idea what the actual process is to socket these old ECUs but in my mind, when applying heat enough to solder something on the board, other things could heat up too much possibly and cause a problem.

as for the process to socket one of these ECUs its quite simple if you know how to use an air soldering station.

you just blast the solder joints that are holding the ROM chips down, clean up the PCB's pads with some flux and a soldering iron to remove any blobs of solder and smooth out the surface so the pins of the socket sit down nice and make good contact with the pads on the pcb.

then you just have to use either a soldering iron or the hot air station to melt the solder while making sure the sockets stay in place, a bit of flux will make sure that the connection is solid (although you have to clean it out afterwards, some flux can be somewhat conductive and cause issues if you don't)

http://imgur.com/a/TTbkUQa

http://imgur.com/a/wXdy8Ts

http://imgur.com/a/NEKAznJ

 

[dadsdiesel]

ECUs for these cars are practically free here in Europe (i got 3 for 50 euro) so if you figure out that shipping works out to be cheap enough i could try to find one matching with your part number for around 20-30 euro for the part itself (they usually go for that price when not sold in bundles)

Thanks for the offer! But just doesn’t seem worth the trouble with shipping and dealing with customs.

I was thinking of buying a cheap ECU and try to have someone socket it for me. Perhaps a better route would be to find someone to look at the one I had chipped to see if they could find a fault. There has to be someone around me here in the US that could do that for me….

I really appreciate the help you’ve given me!

 

[VictorTSB]

Perhaps a better route would be to find someone to look at the one I had chipped to see if they could find a fault.

Thats probably the most cost-effective way of approaching this, any electronics repair shop around you should be able to check it out.

I really appreciate the help you’ve given me!

i wish i could help out more, i really hope you can get this figured out, a tune really wakes up these cars and it's a bummer that you spent so much money to just end up with another factory ecu

 

[Mpaw]

as someone with an electronic engineering background, this kind of 'soldering work' is not specific to vehicles - if you can find a good electronics workshop they should be able to do this kind of thing - they don't really need to know what it / the chips do.

 

[dadsdiesel]

as someone with an electronic engineering background, this kind of 'soldering work' is not specific to vehicles - if you can find a good electronics workshop they should be able to do this kind of thing - they don't really need to know what it / the chips do.

OK - good info - thanks!

I live in a very rural area so there is nothing like an electronics repair facility anywhere around here. I did look online briefly yesterday but was looking at automotive specific ECU repair. The up front costs they showed on their websites was as much as the socketing and tune cost me.

So good to know I don't have to look for a repair shop that is automotive or VW specific.

 

[Fraz7]

I am just now seeing this thread and I am glad that I'm not the only one that has the same issue. Only difference is that I have only had it die on me while driving one out of the four times. My coworkers got to look at my car sit in the parking lot for months with a crank no start after it started one day and shut off warming up. I have been dealing with this issue for over a year collectively and usually a few months in between each time. I looked over fuel pressure, the 109 relay, and a bunch of other things trying to figure out why it wouldn't run. Finally VAG COM helped me find that the engine would not connect. You won't believe who did my ECU chip socketing, Malone Tuning. I sent it to them once and they said nothing was wrong and it worked for a few months. The next time they told me they fixed some solder that was loose and then it worked for 6 months. After the third time, the ride on the trailer rattled to where I could drive it off the trailer. Was not as lucky a couple weeks ago. Seems like we have the exact same issue with the ECU chips not being done properly. Unfortunately with everything I have done to my car I can't go without a tune so I will have to find someone to pay lots of money again for an ECU and tune.

 

[dadsdiesel]

I am just now seeing this thread and I am glad that I'm not the only one that has the same issue

Wow - thanks for much for posting this! Sorry to hear of all your troubles but at least now maybe we know what has been happening.

You went through the same thing as I did with sending your ECU back to them a couple times. I noticed on their website now that they do not work on ECU's from our vintage that need socketed. Wonder why......

In my year+ long adventure I found a couple places that still do the socketing which I will link to below. One is Karma TDI which has a very good reputation around here - another one I've never heard of. The thing is you might have to find a virgin ECU to send out to be chipped being our Malone ECU's are likely compromised to the point of no return now.

Since I installed the ECU I bought from eBay I've not had an issue at all. I miss the mild tune I had gotten but can live without it. The main reason for me getting the tune in the first place was for the hard to start when hot issue. So instead I replaced the starter and it's been working great now. My plan is to clean/rebuild the original starter so if the hard start appears again down the road I will swap them out again.

I figured that I lost around $700 with this ECU fiasco including towing. And that doesn't include the hours upon hours of time I spent troubleshooting. And the worst part is not being able to drive the car as I could not depend on it.

I hope you can find a solution. I would start with a virgin ECU and send it off to Kerma I think. Also, they have what they call a hot swap program where they will send you a chipped ECU of their own then you send yours back to them as a core. Gets pretty expensive that way but might be the way to go. That is IF they have an ECU that will work in your car.

KermaSpec by KERMAtdi Performance Tuning

Kerma tuning provides the most advanced and comprehensive tuning available for diesel cars. Our long experience specializing in all aspects of TDI performance shines through in our tuning.

kermatdi.com

The link below says they will do socketing. You already have the chips so if you could find a socketed ECU you could use your Malone chips. I feel that there is nothing wrong with the chips or tune - it was their socketing that ruined our ECU's.

98-99 ECU SOCKETING + HOT START FIX (TDI)-15

www.advancedcarelectronics.com

 

[BobnOH]

Dad- did you ever get that car squared away? I read the OP and a few responses, not the whole thread.
Sounds to me like Electronic Gremlins, could be a device or more likely wires/connects. Hard to locate where those gremlins live. Guessing you already know, grounds are critical.
You can socket your own ECU, just need the part and someone who's accustomed to soldering small boards. I can recommend rocketchip.com, he's in eastern PA.
I imagine you're beyond that, but I'm with the wife, that's a great car.

 

[dadsdiesel]

Dad- did you ever get that car squared away? I read the OP and a few responses, not the whole thread.
Sounds to me like Electronic Gremlins, could be a device or more likely wires/connects. Hard to locate where those gremlins live. Guessing you already know, grounds are critical.
You can socket your own ECU, just need the part and someone who's accustomed to soldering small boards. I can recommend rocketchip.com, he's in eastern PA.
I imagine you're beyond that, but I'm with the wife, that's a great car.

Leaning toward the end of my story….I spent more than a year troubleshooting my electrical system including the grounds.

After I sent the ECU back to Malone the second time it was still randomly shutting the engine down. That’s after they said the ECU was fine. It’s so hard to replicate an intermittent electrical problem.

So finally getting fed up I bought an ECU from eBay with the exact same model number as mine. Installed it and the car ran fine for a few weeks.

I was desperately trying to prove - at least to myself - that the ECU was the issue. So I installed the Malone ECU once again and sat there with the engine running for an hour or so. I also found in VAG-COM where I could monitor the ECU ground in real time.

The engine started to falter - and little by little it got to the point where the engine died. I then carefully installed the eBay ECU and it fired right up and has been running great for the last 6 months or so. So this proves - at least to me - that the ECU got compromised so how when in the hands of Malone.

What was really frustrating - when it died on the road I had to walk home (no cell service where I live) and call the roll back. Each time he brought it home for me, once off the truck, the car would fire right up. The first time it happened I worked on it where it died along the road for 3 days and no matter what I did could not get it to start. Again, when towed home, I could start it right away.

So my saga is over with I feel. Except for the part I am back to square one after spending $700 and a year of frustration and pulling my hair out.

 

[BobnOH]

$700 ain't bad, except it's still not running good? I spent much more. Ended up being one small wire that was scaĺoped at the factory. Long sad story, even took it to highly regarded TDI mechanic, scatched his head for 2 weeks, no joy.
It was a small wire in the bundle where it runs by the starter and under the battery. IP #3 to the ECU. Tested fine for continuity, but could not carry the needed current, only a few strands left.

 

[dadsdiesel]

$700 ain't bad, except it's still not running good?

It’s been running fine ever since installing the eBay ECU.