Recall for ceramic glow plugs

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Interesting. I saw these same plugs listed by a vendor on this site and they were about $40 each, I think. How can this guy offer them for $8, Bosch, no less?

--Nate
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
PDJetta said:
How was the white smoke (amount) and idle on this start? I am curious because I am considering this modification. I still have the ceramics and the dealer AIN'T touching my car!

Thanks.

--Nate
Go for the steel GP update but have Jeff (RC) do the tuning update to your ECU. Get those "time bomb" ceramics outa there!

My 05 ATD PD JWagen starts easily in the cold with the recall GPs and RC2+ tuning, even in single digit temps although I've only had one chance so far to try it at +7F. No problem in the 10's and 20's for temps.

My original BEW engine (before the timing belt disaster happened) with RC2 tuning would behave like stock tuning in below freezing temps. It would start easily but the idle would be rough and smokey and stumble around for the first 10-15 seconds of running. The white smoke would be bad enough to engulf the back of the car durnig those 10-15 seconds. If you gave it a little throttle and enough to raise it to around 1500 RPM, the stumble would instantly smooth out.

My original BEW engine had the time bomb ceramic GPs. My BEW engine's timing belt failure in July forced my decision whether or not to do the update. The new ATD PD engine (aka PD100 in Europe) came with steel GPs but different from the recall GPs. They weren't the ALH type 11V GPs either. Mrchill installed the recall GPs in the ATD engine and sent my ECU out to Jeff (RC) for the steel GP update.

With the steel recall GPs and updated RC2+ tuning, the new ATD PD engine starts INSTANTLY, like an ALH engine, with NO stumbling around. The idle jumps to ~ 1500 RPM at startup and then drops down to normal a few seconds later. I think the tuning update may have modified the starting conditions for a cold start to prevent the stumble. With temps in the mid 20's F, preglow time is around ~ 2.5 seconds. With the one cold start I've done at +7F, IIRC the preglow time was only about a second or two longer. From my experience so far, the steel GPs do appear to heat up fast.

I don't think my new PD engine has much to do with it given that it has lower compression than a fully broken-in engine would have. I think it's because: Jeff (RC) got it right FTW "For the Win!" :cool: and my RC2+ tune has an aggressive timing map and different starting conditions. Cold start injection timing is probably more advanced than before.

I recommend going ahead and do the update:
1.) Have Jeff (RC) do the GP update with whatever tuning updates you want. Jeff pleasantly surprised me by updating my tune from RC2 to RC2+ given the hardware upgrades that mrchill was doing during my PD engine swap. :cool:
2.) DIY and get those "time bomb" ceramic GPs outa there ASAP.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
BUMP

Early tomorrow (Weds 12/30/09) morning will be a good opportunity to test the recall GPs and ECU reflash. Temps are forcasted to go down into the single digits (F) overnight in the southern New England area and probably colder in northern areas.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I would agree Dave! It's supposed to get to 15 degrees in the Washington, DC area. Let us know how it starts!

--Nate
 

tDignam

Active member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Location
New Orleans
TDI
'04 Jetta
Well I was nervous, but I successfully removed my ceramic glow plugs without breakage. I did get a surprise though. The third one I removed was one of the 11V plugs. So I guess mixing and matching does work as long as you don't go over the voltage rating. The bad plug was a ceramic one though, so I'm glad I got paranoid and parked it. Should get my ECU back from RocketChip tomorrow barring any shipping delays. Load off my mind. :)
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
tDignam said:
Well I was nervous, but I successfully removed my ceramic glow plugs without breakage. I did get a surprise though. The third one I removed was one of the 11V plugs. So I guess mixing and matching does work as long as you don't go over the voltage rating. The bad plug was a ceramic one though, so I'm glad I got paranoid and parked it. Should get my ECU back from RocketChip tomorrow barring any shipping delays. Load off my mind. :)
How did you determine which plug was bad?
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
PDJetta said:
I would agree Dave! It's supposed to get to 15 degrees in the Washington, DC area. Let us know how it starts!

--Nate
The 05 ATD PD JWagen has been parked since around 2 PM this afternoon. I live in an apartment complex and my TDIs are parked outside year round. Temp is currently at 11F outside at 6 PM and dropping. I'm not touching the car again until around 7 AM tomorrow morning.
 
Last edited:

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
I'm considering the RC update...mostly because the Jetta just threw a code for GP#1, according to Autozone. I'd read it, but I'm out of town and I had the wife get it checked, just in case something else was wrong.

My biggest fear is that one or more of the ceramic GP's break in the head. At 90k miles, there is no warranty left.

Tony
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Tony:

I changed my GP's to the steel ones in May and had Jeff set up the voltage when he did RC1. My Passat starts on the first roll of the engine even at 27F here. Sorry, doesn't get much colder in Houston. Jeff's fix is good.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
n1das said:
The 05 ATD PD JWagen has been parked since around 2 PM this afternoon. I live in an apartment complex and my TDIs are parked outside year round. Temp is currently at 11F outside at 6 PM and dropping. I'm not touching the car again until around 7 AM tomorrow morning.
Here's how it started this morning after sitting in 11F and below temps for 18 hours, the last 5 of which were at 7F overnight. It cranked a little slow but it started right up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgGVaeGi18

VCDS (VAG-COM) reported 2.42 seconds of preglow time given before the start. I waited 2-3 seconds after the GP light went out before hitting the starter. From my experience so far, the steel GPs appear to heat up fast. :cool:

Jeff (Rocketchip) got it right FTW "For the Win!!" :cool:
 
Last edited:

whatnxt

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2003
Location
Lk Stevens, WA
TDI
2015 Q5 TDI Premium +
Had the recall done at the dealer with no issues. :) Received my retune from Aligator-Mark and the car starts the same that it always has. Even in the 7 deg F weather that we had. Insert key, turn to start, R-Run (start).
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
tDignam said:
Well I was nervous, but I successfully removed my ceramic glow plugs without breakage. I did get a surprise though. The third one I removed was one of the 11V plugs. So I guess mixing and matching does work as long as you don't go over the voltage rating. The bad plug was a ceramic one though, so I'm glad I got paranoid and parked it. Should get my ECU back from RocketChip tomorrow barring any shipping delays. Load off my mind. :)
What is odd is at 9,000 miles on my car, I had a 7-volt ceramic GP fail and under warranty the VW dealer mistakenly installed an 11 volt GP in its place and the CEL came right back on. I know a couple of folks have also had mismatched plugs, but without any CEL being illuminated.

--Nate
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
n1das said:
Here's how it started this morning after sitting in 11F and below temps for 18 hours, the last 5 of which were at 7F overnight. It cranked a little slow but it started right up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgGVaeGi18

VCDS (VAG-COM) reported 2.42 seconds of preglow time given before the start. I waited 2-3 seconds after the GP light went out before hitting the starter. From my experience so far, the steel GPs appear to heat up fast. :cool:

Jeff (Rocketchip) got it right FTW "For the Win!!" :cool:
Nice!:) No smoke! I think the "smoke" seen in Dave's video is just exhaust condendsation (water vapor) due to the cold weather. Mine, with ceramics still, starts rough and smoky as all at anything below 40 degrees F. Always has since day one.

I just can not understand why a team of VW engineers can not do for this recall what Jeff (Rocket Chip) has done!
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
PDJetta said:
Nice!:) No smoke! I think the "smoke" seen in Dave's video is just exhaust condendsation (water vapor) due to the cold weather. Mine, with ceramics still, starts rough and smoky as all at anything below 40 degrees F. Always has since day one.

I just can not understand why a team of VW engineers can not do for this recall what Jeff (Rocket Chip) has done!
That is just water vapor condensation due to the cold weather. There is practically NO smoke at startup and no stumbling around for 10-15 seconds afterward.

My original BEW PD engine always started like your does at 40F and below and did from day one. I don't think my new ATD PD engine swapped in place of the BEW PD engine has anything to do with it. I think the differences are the steel GPs and the RC2+ tune. I notice the engine sounding more diesely than the original BEW engine ever did, suggesting the injection timing may be more advanced for cold starts....RC tuning FTW!

I agree, VW doesn't have a clue yet RC gets it right FTW "For the Win!" and Jeff is a one man show! :cool:
 
Last edited:

gmcleod752

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 2004 Jetta TDI
Our 2004 TDI PD had the ceramic GP recall. The dealer installed new GP, but the car no longer will start below 15 deg F. Around 30 deg F it will start after about 20 minutes of fussing with it. We plan to take it back on Monday. However, I was wondering if anyone knows for sure what the GP Voltage was for the Ceramic GP and what the Voltage should be for the new Steel GP? And I was wondering if the 2003 TDI Glow Plugs are interchangeable. Has anyone wired up an alternative Glow Plug controller.

2004 Jetta TDI PD
2003 Jetta TDI

Gary
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
The voltage is switched off and on very rapidly to average out to the target voltage.

If you want to make a simple on off relay control, it has been done on this site. But you have to use full voltage steel glow plugs, not 5 or 7 volt plugs.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2761176

I hate to say it, but even a manual plug controller and full voltage plugs may not fix your issue. They changed out the whole ECU map, and it is likely that the problem is not with the GPs, but with the fueling and timing map in the ECU.

I wish I had better news.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
DanG144 said:
They changed out the whole ECU map, and it is likely that the problem is not with the GPs, but with the fueling and timing map in the ECU.
X2 What DanG144 said.

I suspect this too however Jeff (RC) seems to have got it right. My 05 PD JWagen now starts beautifully in the cold compared to before with the original engine and previous tune w/ceramic "time bomb" GPs. I think my PD engine swap and the GP change have little if anything to do with it. My RC2+ tune has been optimized for low smoke, so I suspect it has a very agressive timing map. It definitely sounds more "diesely" than before immediately following a cold start, suggesting the timing is different, probably more advanced. For fueling, it immediately jumps to 1500 RPM at startup and then settles down to 1100 a few seconds later and then down to the normal 903 RPM. It reliably starts in single digit temps (coldest tested so far) without stumbling around and without engulfing the back end of the car in smoke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgGVaeGi18

I recommend:
- DIY and replace the time bomb ceramics with the steel GPs. DO NOT let a VW dealer touch it!
- Have Jeff (RC) do the steel GP update plus whatever else you want for tuning.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:

wlane

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Location
New Mexico
TDI
04 Jetta Wagon
Just to add to the list. Bought an 04 Jetta TDI this Thanksgiving weekend from a VW dealer in Las Vegas, where it doesn't get too cold. Bought it with the Certified pre-owned warranty (12/24) Drove it home to New Mexico mountains where nightly winter temps are typically in the low to mid teens F. Having all of the same problems described above on this thread. Starts fine in the morning in lower, warmer climates (Tucson, Albuquerque.) Albuquerque dealer first fixed a coolant temperature sensor as a possible solution. That wasn't a solution. Took it back after reading these threads, had them look up the warranty history. The new glow plugs had been installed in Vegas under the recall about 2 weeks before I bought the car. Now the dealer says it can't do anything until the check engine light comes on so they can scan for codes. Also, they act like they've never heard of a connection between the GP recall and the cold start issue, and they wouldn't have even looked up the history if I hadn't requested it.

Winters are cold this high up (9000 ft) but fortunately short this far south (Lat 32 deg.)
 

ytchernov

New member
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
2004 Passat Wagen tdi
Ceramic glow plugs HELP

I have a 2004 passat tdi wagen and my cel went on and said #1 cylinder. Dealer said the recall is on hold. i bought 4 5volt steel glow plugs from them and want to put them in. However i have read alot and not sure what u need to do after. If you put the steel ones in do you need some kind of an update? are the ceramic one 5volt too or 7? Also i have hear people putting in steel ones and doing some kind of RC2+ tune. Whate is that, Do i need it, and who and where does this. Also is it expensive. thanks
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
In another thread Jeff at Rocketchip suggests extending the pre-glow by waiting longer after the GP light goes out; more like a full 20 seconds. I do this with my OEM ceramics when the ambient is in the single digits.
 

halocline

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Location
San Antonio
TDI
04 Jetta Wagon
If I lived in a colder climate I would probably have Jeff do the chip tuning for my BEW w/recall. Here in San Antonio a really freezing day is about 25F, so far no problem starting at that temp, just a few puffs of smoke.

I predict VW will come up with a reflash to fix this right around the beginning of summer. :D
 

MT204

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Location
Montana
TDI
05 JETTA
halocline said:
If I lived in a colder climate I would probably have Jeff do the chip tuning for my BEW w/recall. Here in San Antonio a really freezing day is about 25F, so far no problem starting at that temp, just a few puffs of smoke.

I predict VW will come up with a reflash to fix this right around the beginning of summer. :D
I hope it's before then!
My Jetta has been sitting at the dealer and we have been driving a loaner car (courtesy of VW) for the last 3 1/2 weeks.
That's the interesting thing "some" people got loaners and others not?
I'm not going to take it back until it does start in the cold (10 and colder) like it used to before the recall, and I'm not going to pay anything to rectify a problem that VW caused.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
ytchernov said:
I have a 2004 passat tdi wagen and my cel went on and said #1 cylinder. Dealer said the recall is on hold. i bought 4 5volt steel glow plugs from them and want to put them in. However i have read alot and not sure what u need to do after. If you put the steel ones in do you need some kind of an update? are the ceramic one 5volt too or 7? Also i have hear people putting in steel ones and doing some kind of RC2+ tune. Whate is that, Do i need it, and who and where does this. Also is it expensive. thanks
The ceramic "time bomb" GPs being recalled are 7V rated. The new steel GPs are 5V rated. If you install the steel GPs without updating the ECU, you will soon burn out the steel GPs. If you decide to not use a VW dealer to do the ECU update, get the ECU updated by Jeff (Rocketchip). Then get the new steel GPs installed afterwards. Only install the new steel GPs after getting the ECU updated.

Note "RC2+" simply represents a particular stage tuning or level of performance from Rocketchip. It has nothing to do with the steel GP update. Higher level tunes deliver more power and performance but also require certain hardware upgrades along the way to work safely with those tunes. I have a stronger clutch, bigger turbo, and exhaust upgrades in my car. The particular tuning stage (RC2+ in my case) is unrelated to the steel GP update. You DO NOT need RC2+ tuning to get the steel GP update from Rocketchip.

If you decide to go the Rocketchip route and have all stock hardware, go for Rocketchip stage 1 or 1+ tuning. You'll get a nice increase in power and is safe for stock hardware. MPGs will be largely unaffected unless you keep your right foot planted all the time. :D :cool: The steel GP update will come with whatever level tune you go with. If you just want to keep your totally stock tune (power level) and only get the steel GP update, he can do that too (but why would you want to?). :D :cool: Whatever you decide to do, remember the warranty disclaimer regarding modifications also applies to chip tuning: You are your own warranty.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:

Tom Servo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Location
LA (Lower Alabama)
TDI
2005 Gol TDI, blue and falling apart
OK this may be a silly question but I gotta ask… has the glow time been decreased with the steel plugs? I have seen a lot of posts saying it's around 4 seconds now.

Mine (steel) hasn't lit more than 3 seconds until today, but I also have an intermittent CEL for glow plug control module so who knows if anything is even working.

This morning, at about 19°F, it lit for 3 seconds and when I cranked the car stumbled and stopped. It also threw a CEL. The second glow however was a full 7 seconds and started right up. Same P0684 - glow plug control module as always, but with the light staying on 7 seconds I have to wonder what's really going on. :confused:
 
Top