real world EVs review

[El Dobro]

Drove a Corvair in the early 70s, usually adequate heat but when I made a January trip to Winnipeg in -40 temps I had to keep the ice scraper ready on the dashboard too!

My brother's '60 Corvair came with a gas heater. That thing really heated up the cabin.

 

[compu_85]

Our dual motor Model 3 just crossed 175,000 miles. It's lost about 11% of its original battery capacity... where it's been since ~120k miles.

Still all original suspension. It's time for sway bar bushings or something up front, it's a bit clunky over small bumps. Dampers still feel good. Brakes are original. It's time for another windshield, it's got 2 big chips and a crack all the way across.

-J

 

[greengeeker]

Our dual motor Model 3 just crossed 175,000 miles. It's lost about 11% of its original battery capacity... where it's been since ~120k miles.

Still all original suspension. It's time for sway bar bushings or something up front, it's a bit clunky over small bumps. Dampers still feel good. Brakes are original. It's time for another windshield, it's got 2 big chips and a crack all the way across.

-J

thanks for chiming in Jason. Any info on your cost of operation?

 

[gmenounos]

Still all original suspension. It's time for sway bar bushings or something up front, it's a bit clunky over small bumps. Dampers still feel good.

Was surfing around on a Tesla forum and found the following. Seems like it's happened to at least a couple people with 2018 Model 3s:
https://www.teslaownersonline.com/t...trol-arm-fell-off-without-any-incident.23971/
Probably worth a look if you're having any work done on your suspension.

 

[Zak99b5]

Seems like a bunch of whiny types over there lol. And not handy, either.

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" --Red Green

 

[compu_85]

Any info on your cost of operation?

Lifetime consumption is 3.5 miles / kwh. Charging at home, that's about $0.037 / mile. At a supercharger, $0.09 / mile.
I think it's on its 5th set of tires now? I actually can't remember!

-J

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

What is the cost per mile at current residential electric rates?

 

[oilhammer]

What was the cost of the car? Did you finance it? Fifth set of tires... Jesus... but that is probably pretty typical. I've gotten really spoiled with the 195-65-15-91Hs. 75k+ miles on a set, I just put the fourth set on one of our Passats at 250k. Still had its original brakes at 200k but they were in need of a good cleaning/lubing so I just replaced them anyway.

 

[gmenounos]

And at 175k, you must be coming up on what, your second timing belt? And your 18th oil change? And at 50mpg, that's 3500 gallons of diesel ($16k at current national average prices).

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

We can argue endlessly about which type of vehicle is more expensive to operate. I've concluded that there are two big considerations for EVs vs. ICE: The comparative prices of the vehicles and battery life. There's no question that EVs cost more up front. If you qualify for some government subsidy it helps with the purchase price, for sure. And battery life seems to be somewhat of an unknown: Currently they seem to be lasting longer than expected.

It's silly to compare my old TDI to a new Tesla. gmenounos, you have a perfect situation, however, to make that comparison. I received my excise tax bills last weekend: how does your Tesla compare to the Wagon it replaced? I think it's possible that what you pay in tax you'll save on fuel costs.

 

[gmenounos]

I didn't buy an EV to save money and I haven't made any arguments here that EVs are cheaper to operate. I was just poking fun at you guys who keep questioning the value of EVs. If I wanted to minimize costs, I'd ride a bicycle 95% of the time and rent a car, or take a bus or train when I need to travel further.

I bought my EV to reduce my carbon emissions while still maintaining the same quality of life (e.g. not having to ride a bike everywhere in the crappy New England weather and not having to rent a different car for trips). 3500 gallons of diesel sends over 39 tons of CO2 right out the tail pipe. That's not going to get any better in 10 years but the power grid will continue to get cleaner. I already voluntarily pay the maximum electrical rate in my town so that my electricity usage is purchased from renewable sources and I have rooftop solar getting installed in the next couple months.

And as for excise tax, it'll be a lot more than my TDIs, but it's money going straight to my own town. The diesel I'm not buying would have sent money mostly to some fossil fuel company.

 

[oilhammer]

It is a silly argument, and gmenounos, the B5 TDI is incapable of getting 50 MPGs unless you drove like a menace to others on the road. It tops out at about 40, most of the times an average of 38 is more realistic.

But, it was $28k brand new, I paid cash for it, and aside from the balance shaft upgrade, it has needed very little beyond scheduled PM. They do like outer CV boots, but those are really super easy to swap thankfully. And it still looks and drives as good as it did when new. It has been (and continues to be) a very good car.

My wife drives it mostly, I drive one of my Golfs... I now have three of them in operation, with another in the queue to be untooefed as soon as I'm done with the current pair of projects, a 2003 Jetta and a 2005 Passat wagon. I also have a gasser Jetta that I need to swap the engine on, but that isn't as exciting.

My carbon footprint reduction plan is to reduce, reuse, and recycle as much as I can. We can all do our part!

 

[braddies]

Without atmospheric carbon trees wouldn't grow...

 

[turbobrick240]

If you're going to compare costs, a Chevy Bolt would be the more appropriate EV to compare to a Golf/Jetta TDI. A Model 3 is more comparable to a BMW 3 series, really. I haven't priced out a 3 series recently, but if you can make use of the $7500 tax break, the Model 3 may even be less expensive up front.

 

[Daemon64]

What is the cost per mile at current residential electric rates?

Well here:
My current rate is .265 / kWh because i am locked in, but if I wasn't it would be around .495 /kWh this winter, and around .336 / kWh in the summer.

EA Rates have just increased: from standard .43 /kWh to .48 /kWh the pass plus membership was .31 /kWh & is now .36 /kWh

Article here: https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/3/2...rice-increase-ev-charging-stations-march-2023

but my electricity is higher than a lot of people in this country... gotta love a grid running on a high percentage of shipping in and stored in tanks natural gas.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Although I joke that I've shot my lifetime carbon footprint all to hell with approximately 3 million miles of business air travel, I would like to reduce what I'm consuming now. Heating my house (oil) is the big deal for me. At least I have solar that covers 90% or so of my electical use. At some point I'll probably downsize housing, and hope to live somewhere that allows me to stop driving everywhere.

My auto ownership strategy is clearly not focused on saving money. I happly spare no expense to keep my Wagon running as well as I can. And having 5 cars for one driver isn't exactly economical. But I don't want to drive an EV. I still love to hear my diesels fire up in the morning. Compared to new cars they are a bargain, but that's not the reason I own them.

 

[Abacus]

My carbon footprint reduction plan is to reduce, reuse, and recycle as much as I can. We can all do our part!

My thoughts exactly. In my opinion there is simply too much waste in the world of perfectly good and useable products all for sake of convenience. It's not about saving the planet with some manufactured term to make ourselves feel better, it's about money, comfort, and hubris. It's about money because companies and individuals get rich buying and selling carbon credits like any commodity, if there were truly a need there would be no such thing. It's about comfort by those who claim less carbon-anything is desirable, while they have workers using electric tools to install their solar panels to justify using more electricity with less guilt. If people were so concerned about carbon they'd live more like the Amish and do things by hand. And it's finally about hubris by those who see themselves living superiorly to those who driving ICE vehicles who do not engage in or subscribe to the carbon-anything scheme.

Life is too short here, have fun with it during your time. If solar or EV's is your passion, engage in it. If it's flying, scuba diving, or playing video games, then enjoy to your hearts content. If diesels is, do that, and since this is a diesel enthusiast board I'm guessing we're of like mind, then do that. I don't mind the EV discussion and have learned a lot, but it's getting annoyingly to the point of a sales pitch. I really enjoyed driving Lawson and Jason's Model 3 but could not own one due to our driving needs and household fitment. I applaud them for it and hope it continues for a very long time. But a few on here are bordering on annoying with their proselytizing. Yes, I know I can scroll on by and ignore the thread, but there is a lot of useful information here absent a few (which is why the Ignore function exists).

 

[turbobrick240]

This thread doesn't feel remotely like a sales pitch to me. The OP is basically saying he's unhappy with the economics and convenience of his Polestar2 EV and he plans to replace it with a TDI when his lease is up. That would be a strange sales pitch.

 

[oilhammer]

There are lots of ways everyone individually could make a difference, but they don't or won't. I preach here at the shop a lot about people changing their oil too often, but I assure you most every one of my coworkers won't listen, even though I daily parade cars through here with 200k, 300k, 400k miles on them that are still motoring along just fine with the manufacturer scheduled PM. My BIL's 2007 CRV is getting ready to hit 300k..... 10k mile oil changes since new, and it runs like new, and I would wager it uses less oil than most of those Honda K24 engines do.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Occasionally I'll take a call from a customer asking what the "real" oil change interval should be for TDIs. Even though I tell them I personally own TDIs with hundreds of thousands of miles on them that consume no oil and have received 10K changes since new, I doubt it's the answer they want to hear.

I agree with Abacus that some of the posts here do sound like a sales pitch. But I also will applaud Jason and Lawson for effective use of their Model 3, along with the fossil fuels not burned in those 175K miles. I know it's taken some behavior change on their part, but it doesn't sound like it's been a hardship for them. Props to you both.

 

[Abacus]

This thread doesn't feel remotely like a sales pitch to me.

It never does to the one making the pitch.

 

[turbobrick240]

It never does to the one making the pitch.

I've never owned an EV. If this thread brings out feelings of negativity for you, maybe you should avoid it.

 

[greengeeker]

...I haven't made any arguments here that EVs are cheaper to operate...

I'm not trying to make arguments. I'm simply trying to introduce DATA in the 'real world EVs review' thread which highlights one of the benefits: reduced cost of energy consumed.

Lifetime consumption is 3.5 miles / kwh. Charging at home, that's about $0.037 / mile. At a supercharger, $0.09 / mile.

Thanks again for sharing. Good to hear that your battery hasn't required replacement in that timeframe.

Showing range of fuel price over that same timeframe, highlighting average. Highlighting assumed charge distribution.

 

[Daemon64]

I'm not trying to make arguments. I'm simply trying to introduce DATA in the 'real world EVs review' thread which highlights one of the benefits: reduced cost of energy consumed.


Thanks again for sharing. Good to hear that your battery hasn't required replacement in that timeframe.

Showing range of fuel price over that same timeframe, highlighting average. Highlighting assumed charge distribution.

I get between 3mi / kWh & 2.5mi /kWh.... so like anything else it depends on the car. All of my highway driving is locked cruise @72mph usually, and those numbers are summer and winter respectively.

I'd also say that my Q5 TDI was more expensive to operate for sure it was 28mpg @ $4.20 diesel to .15 / mi, but like currently it would be .1785 / mi @$5 / gall diesel. The P2 @ 3mi / kWh is around .12 / mi to DC fast charge or at home since my rate is basically the same for my summer range, and for winter it is .144 / mi..... GSW @ 45 mpg diesel --- .111 / mi, @ 40 mpg .125, and at 35mpg .142 .... so because my electricity is so high it ends up costing literally less to drive the diesel, which is nuts to me... but also just my reality... The price / kWh is higher in NYS .43 kWh, and CT was .36 / kWh @ electrify america, but these rates are going up.

 

[turbobrick240]

I get between 3mi / kWh & 2.5mi /kWh.... so like anything else it depends on the car. All of my highway driving is locked cruise @72mph usually, and those numbers are summer and winter respectively.

I'd also say that my Q5 TDI was more expensive to operate for sure it was 28mpg @ $4.20 diesel to .15 / mi, but like currently it would be .1785 / mi @$5 / gall diesel. The P2 @ 3mi / kWh is around .12 / mi to DC fast charge or at home since my rate is basically the same for my summer range, and for winter it is .144 / mi..... GSW @ 45 mpg diesel --- .111 / mi, @ 40 mpg .125, and at 35mpg .142 .... so because my electricity is so high it ends up costing literally less to drive the diesel, which is nuts to me... but also just my reality... The price / kWh is higher in NYS .43 kWh, and CT was .36 / kWh @ electrify america, but these rates are going up.

Is diesel $5/gal around you? It's between $5.50 and 5.80 around here right now. It should drop some with warmer weather, though. Maybe a good bit if Russia gives up or gets beat back in Ukraine. It's too bad electricity is so expensive for you. Those must be just about the highest rates outside of Hawaii. California rates are quite high too.

It would be nice if you could get the $.062/kWh this chart shows for transport electricity in Mass.:

Electric Power Monthly - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

 

[GlowBugTDI]

Ouch thats rough. I'd be crying at those prices. I've been paying $3.80-$4 gal. and I'm pretty sure I feel a tear every time with these prices.
Its sad too because I'm pretty sure my wifes car is almost if not outdoing me on a cent per mile scale. Cost a little more to have fun though I guess.

 

[turbobrick240]

Yeah, fortunately I don't use heating oil (most do around here), and my diesel needs aren't all that substantial in the winter. It nudged over $6/gal for a while there.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Diesel varies a lot in SE MA, but right now it's around $5/gallon. Some stations more, some in the high 4s. I paid $6.09 for one fill of the diesel tank at my house earlier in the year, last fill was $5.79. I've ordered another, I suspect this one will be in the low 5s.

Heating oil is about $4.50 this year.

I've lived in metro Boston basically all my life, and if you do you have to accept that most things here are expensive. Housing, taxes, utilities, repairs (home and auto)...you name it. But it's home, so here I am.

 

[Daemon64]

Is diesel $5/gal around you? It's between $5.50 and 5.80 around here right now. It should drop some with warmer weather, though. Maybe a good bit if Russia gives up or gets beat back in Ukraine. It's too bad electricity is so expensive for you. Those must be just about the highest rates outside of Hawaii. California rates are quite high too.

It would be nice if you could get the $.062/kWh this chart shows for transport electricity in Mass.:

Electric Power Monthly - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

yes its sitting between 4.80 / 5.20 depending on the station and that transport chart is wild. The rates this winter went up to .495 because we generate so much power w/ natural gas... thats all in distribution, line etc.... it should avg closer to .336 this summer but its hella expensive either way.

Secondly on cost buying a GSW SEL, in cash would cost the same as 18 mo of the P2 lease.... hahaha... so like costs less either way in the end to just buy outright a GSW and not have the payment... so almost anything including an F150 would be cheaper even if it used a TON MORE fuel

 

[gmenounos]

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" --Red Green

Fun fact: I've been in the Red Green studio audience multiple times. I have a buddy in Buffalo and when I used to visit him, if it was during Red Green taping season, we'd get tickets for the show and drive up to Toronto to be in the audience.