real world EVs review

[gearheadgrrrl]

If you go to the Tesla new inventory page, you can order a new silver base model Y rear drive for $40,030 today. That's before any incentives on cars in inventory. But I agree that cars have gotten way too expensive. They've become status symbols for people with poor economic discipline.

But here in the rural midwest you need AWD and the bigger battery, which pushes the price into the $50K range...

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Cars have always been status symbols, like so many other consumer goods. I think we all participate in our own ways.

 

[oilhammer]

I think my 2000 Golf currently displays the status of "Homeless, poor, may be harboring chlamydia, keep your distance" The poor paint....

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Those of us who drive uber high mileage TDIs are proud of them in our own ways. My son loves telling people about his cosmetically beat, nearly 500K mile, '02 Golf. I maintain that my neighbors don't even know what a MKIV Jetta is anymore, it's so far out of the mainstream. They just know it's me when I drive by, because I've been doing that for 21 years. To me, owning a $50K+ SUV would just blend in.

 

[turbobrick240]

But here in the rural midwest you need AWD and the bigger battery, which pushes the price into the $50K range...

Is your current car AWD? Believe it or not, people managed just fine in the rural Midwest with mostly RWD vehicles for many decades. I drove my RWD Volvos and VW places I would never consider driving my fwd VWs. Besides, RWD EVs have plenty of weight in the right places for traction, and next level traction control. Put some good winter tires on and hit the slopes.

Tesla has silver AWD long range Model Ys in inventory for $46,030 before incentives, btw. They've been dropping prices like crazy.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Been driving in Minnesota for going on six decades and RWD is inadequate while FWD works so well that AWD isn't really needed. But a lot of EVs were never designed for this climate and thus don't offer FWD, so have to include the upcharge for AWD as well as for the longest range battery in the calculation.

 

[oilhammer]

Your comparison is invalid. EVs don't follow the weight bias you are hanging on to from ICE vehicles. We've been over this.

Now, poor ground clearance, poor tire choices and nothing 'good' to alternate with, may have an impact, but the FWD/RWD/AWD thing doesn't.

And besides, if you can afford some of these wallet crushers, you could probably also afford a clapped out 20 year old Accent with a set of snow tires sitting somewhere in the shadows of your mansion and have it on stand by just in case, although I'd think most would have some Yukon Denali or some other such thing as well.

 

[P2B]

I think my 2000 Golf currently displays the status of "Homeless, poor, may be harboring chlamydia, keep your distance" The poor paint....

Almost due for it's annual bath?

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Simple physics- RWD is lucky to get

Your comparison is invalid. EVs don't follow the weight bias you are hanging on to from ICE vehicles. We've been over this.

Now, poor ground clearance, poor tire choices and nothing 'good' to alternate with, may have an impact, but the FWD/RWD/AWD thing doesn't.

And besides, if you can afford some of these wallet crushers, you could probably also afford a clapped out 20 year old Accent with a set of snow tires sitting somewhere in the shadows of your mansion and have it on stand by just in case, although I'd think most would have some Yukon Denali or some other such thing as well.

In the case of the TSLA model Y you may be correct- Specs I found show 54% of weight on drive wheels with AWD version, RWD version might have a bit more weight on the drive wheels. Not quite as good as the Beetles and Corvairs, but better than most of the front engine/RWD vehicles. Would be nice to have the steering wheels doing the driving though...

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I got through a number of winters in upstate NY and here in New England with a couple Volvos and a Peugeot. They were OK, but the Pug in particular could be pretty exciting. It was an automatic with limited slip (for reasons passing understanding, since it had no power) and you had to kick it into neutral if you wanted to go around low speed corner on snow. Otherwise it would just go straight. The Volvos (both manuals) were better.

I've only driven the BMW 335d in the snow a couple times. Reminds me of the Peugeot. Not a good thing.

 

[P2B]

In the case of the TSLA model Y you may be correct- Specs I found show 54% of weight on drive wheels with AWD version

...and the other 46% levitates?

 

[turbobrick240]

...and the other 46% levitates?

They have a gigantic ball bearing in the middle like weeble wobbles.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

...and the other 46% levitates?

Pardon me, meant "rear wheels".

 

[Daemon64]

High-Mileage Drivers Aren't Buying EVs And That's A Problem

The used EV market could be vital in closing the overage mileage gap between EVs and gas vehicles

jalopnik.com

Interesting. The comments are even more telling to me and back up a lot of stuff from ya'll here...

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Familiar problem that a lot of environmentalists fail to recognize- The people that want to conserve resources and reduce pollution have already taken measures like driving less, so trading their Prius for a Tesla doesn't accomplish much. Saw the same problem back in the 70s when Minnesota reduced electric rates for the customers who used the least, didn't reduce the consumption of the people with big houses or electric heat but was a bargain for people like me with small houses that used one light at a time. Back then I lived in Minneapolis and the city was obsessed with water conservation, even though they weren't using even half of their system's capacity. I suggested to the mayor that he travel 100 miles west to the FarmFest event and try selling his city's surplus water to the rural cities. He took me up on the suggestion, probably because he wanted to run for Governor, but failed to make a pitch for the city's water. I suspect the concept of hundred mile water pipelines was beyond his comprehension, but the rural town I live in now gets water from up to 150 miles away and we're not the end of the line!

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

If someone drives a lot continuing to use fossil fuels is probably the least expensive option. You can buy a fairly economical, low mileage car used (Accord/Camry/Fusion) and drive it 40 or 50K miles, then repeat. Or drive one a couple hundred thousand miles. And if someone drives a lot, the convenience of a quick fuel stop just about anywhere is pretty compelling compared to more frequent, longer, and perhaps less convenient charging.

 

[turbobrick240]

The electricity rates in central Maine are dropping 35% on supply and 4% on delivery charges Jan. 1. From roughly 28¢ kWh to 22.5¢. I'm not sure if that's a national trend, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Don't also be surprised if it doesn't last long. Electric rates have been bouncing around a lot in recent years.

 

[TomJD]

If someone drives a lot continuing to use fossil fuels is probably the least expensive option. You can buy a fairly economical, low mileage car used (Accord/Camry/Fusion) and drive it 40 or 50K miles, then repeat. Or drive one a couple hundred thousand miles. And if someone drives a lot, the convenience of a quick fuel stop just about anywhere is pretty compelling compared to more frequent, longer, and perhaps less convenient charging.

I couldn’t agree more.

My wife drives 40-50k a year and a Corolla is the best cost-per-mile that we’ve come up with.

We recently reran the numbers with a couple EV options and the total price-per-mile (including purchase price) combined with the lack of charging infrastructure where she drives made it unfeasible and considerably more expensive. In fact, a 2000 LS400 running premium gas was cheaper.

Add to this the fact that we’d have the depreciation cost of a 3 year old EV with 120-150k miles. An EV with 150k on the clock is different than a Corolla with 150k on the clock.

 

[Daemon64]

I couldn’t agree more.

My wife drives 40-50k a year and a Corolla is the best cost-per-mile that we’ve come up with.

We recently reran the numbers with a couple EV options and the total price-per-mile (including purchase price) combined with the lack of charging infrastructure where she drives made it unfeasible and considerably more expensive. In fact, a 2000 LS400 running premium gas was cheaper.

Add to this the fact that we’d have the depreciation cost of a 3 year old EV with 120-150k miles. An EV with 150k on the clock is different than a Corolla with 150k on the clock.

We've run the numbers and running an EV is more expensive for us than running a 2023 Golf R Man on premium, a 2024 Audi RS3 on premium, or even my 2015 Q5 TDI on diesel when i had it( at todays diesel prices ). The only thing we have thats about 25% more expensive the 2011 WRX Hatchback 5spd manual that is stupidly modified which also uses premium. We've run the numbers countless times for our situation and no matter what its cheaper to drive a gas premium car, if you start talking gas non premium then its way and far cheaper to run here.

 

[turbobrick240]

I don't think the total cost of ownership is generally a major consideration for people buying $60k+ cars. And for the unfortunate few paying $.40+ kWh for electricity, an EV may not pencil out. But there are also people willing to pay a few bucks more for a zero emission vehicle, just like there are people willing to pay $60k for an ICE vehicle.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

'Cept even EVs aren't zero emission vehicles!

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I don't think the total cost of ownership is generally a major consideration for people buying $60k+ cars. And for the unfortunate few paying $.40+ kWh for electricity, an EV may not pencil out. But there are also people willing to pay a few bucks more for a zero emission vehicle, just like there are people willing to pay $60k for an ICE vehicle.

Of course, but people driving over 30K miles a year and concerned about ownership costs aren't buying new $60K vehicles unless they haven't mathed the total cost. I am surprised how little some people drive. My brother bought a new leftover Golf Alltrack in 2020, and I don't think it has 10K miles on it yet. One of my closest friends tends to lease VWs (Arteons, twice now, most recently), and at the end of the 3 year lease term ususally has about 20K on the car. Another friend just told me the other night that her 2007 Porsche Cayman has 45K on it. None of these people are concerned about cost of owership or cost per mile at the detail level. They only know what they could afford to purchase, and went from there.

The cost of driving a lot of miles in a $60K or more expensive vehicle is prohibitive. Depreciation will get you, big time.

 

[bigsexyTDI]

One of the richest men I know drives used Camrys

If someone drives a lot continuing to use fossil fuels is probably the least expensive option. You can buy a fairly economical, low mileage car used (Accord/Camry/Fusion) and drive it 40 or 50K miles, then repeat. Or drive one a couple hundred thousand miles. And if someone drives a lot, the convenience of a quick fuel stop just about anywhere is pretty compelling compared to more frequent, longer, and perhaps less convenient charging.

 

[turbobrick240]

Warren Buffett drives a 2014 Cadillac XTS that he bought used with hail damage.

Warren Buffett drives a damaged 2014 car despite huge wealth

Despite his huge wealth, Warren Buffett lives a frugal and simple lifestyle. Even so, his choice of vehicle has become the topic of interest among many people.

supercarblondie.com

.

 

[Daemon64]

I don't think the total cost of ownership is generally a major consideration for people buying $60k+ cars. And for the unfortunate few paying $.40+ kWh for electricity, an EV may not pencil out. But there are also people willing to pay a few bucks more for a zero emission vehicle, just like there are people willing to pay $60k for an ICE vehicle.

Up until 2017 the most expensive car I ever bought was 17k... all cars before then were small standard sedans and all 4cyl. Just because I DECIDE that a 60k vehicle is right, doesn't mean I do so without looking at total cost of ownership, fuel, etc...etc... and believe me I don't have to spend 60k to make a financial mistake buy a new WRX, get into modding it even slightly and then tell me it's a win win.

Anyways point is I got the P2 to get me out of my expensive Q5 PHEV... most of that decision was around cost the lease on the P2 saved me $500 / mo, the free charging for 2 yrs, around another $160 / mo... the insurance... cheaper.

If I cared more I'd just get a Kia Niro hybrid 32k 54mpg on 87, or a sportage hybrid 38k 38mpg combined on 87... 6.4c/mi to run Niro on 3.50 regular & 9.2c to run sportage on 3.50 regular... ( both of the vehicles prices are the TOP trim )

At 54mpg the Niro is beating the polestar in co2 emissions at 383wh/mi which is P2 avg that's 172.50g/mi on MA grid. (20lbs of co2 in 1 gal of gas, 454g per lbs / 54mpg ) = 168 g/mi for the Niro hybrid. And I'd like to state MA grid mix is about 30 g/mi cleaner than the national avg.

The sportage is lacking a 38mpg 239g/mi but realistically that's not off by much. The Niro and sportage numbers are basically the same no matter the conditions...

 

[turbobrick240]

Up until 2017 the most expensive car I ever bought was 17k... all cars before then were small standard sedans and all 4cyl. Just because I DECIDE that a 60k vehicle is right, doesn't mean I do so without looking at total cost of ownership, fuel, etc...etc... and believe me I don't have to spend 60k to make a financial mistake buy a new WRX, get into modding it even slightly and then tell me it's a win win.

Anyways point is I got the P2 to get me out of my expensive Q5 PHEV... most of that decision was around cost the lease on the P2 saved me $500 / mo, the free charging for 2 yrs, around another $160 / mo... the insurance... cheaper.

If I cared more I'd just get a Kia Niro hybrid 32k 54mpg on 87, or a sportage hybrid 38k 38mpg combined on 87... 6.4c/mi to run Niro on 3.50 regular & 9.2c to run sportage on 3.50 regular... ( both of the vehicles prices are the TOP trim )

At 54mpg the Niro is beating the polestar in co2 emissions at 383wh/mi which is P2 avg that's 172.50g/mi on MA grid. (20lbs of co2 in 1 gal of gas, 454g per lbs / 54mpg ) = 168 g/mi for the Niro hybrid. And I'd like to state MA grid mix is about 30 g/mi cleaner than the national avg.

The sportage is lacking a 38mpg 239g/mi but realistically that's not off by much. The Niro and sportage numbers are basically the same no matter the conditions...

A 2021 Polestar2 dual motor produces 104g CO2/mile on the Mass. grid and 157g CO2/mile on the US grid average. A dual motor Model 3 is 71g Mass grid and 108g US avg, respectively. Also, if you're counting the upstream emissions for the EV then you also need to count the upstream emissions for the ICEV- which would add about 40g CO2/mile for a 56 mpg vehicle. Rating the plug in hybrids is a bit trickier- I don't know what assumptions they make about battery usage.

Beyond Tailpipe Emissions: Results

This calculator allows you to estimate the total GHG emissions that would be associated with operating an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, including GHG emissions from the production and distribution of electricity used to power the vehicle.

www.fueleconomy.gov

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Up until 2017 the most expensive car I ever bought was 17k... all cars before then were small standard sedans and all 4cyl. Just because I DECIDE that a 60k vehicle is right, doesn't mean I do so without looking at total cost of ownership, fuel, etc...etc... and believe me I don't have to spend 60k to make a financial mistake buy a new WRX, get into modding it even slightly and then tell me it's a win win.

Anyways point is I got the P2 to get me out of my expensive Q5 PHEV... most of that decision was around cost the lease on the P2 saved me $500 / mo, the free charging for 2 yrs, around another $160 / mo... the insurance... cheaper.

If I cared more I'd just get a Kia Niro hybrid 32k 54mpg on 87, or a sportage hybrid 38k 38mpg combined on 87... 6.4c/mi to run Niro on 3.50 regular & 9.2c to run sportage on 3.50 regular... ( both of the vehicles prices are the TOP trim )

At 54mpg the Niro is beating the polestar in co2 emissions at 383wh/mi which is P2 avg that's 172.50g/mi on MA grid. (20lbs of co2 in 1 gal of gas, 454g per lbs / 54mpg ) = 168 g/mi for the Niro hybrid. And I'd like to state MA grid mix is about 30 g/mi cleaner than the national avg.

The sportage is lacking a 38mpg 239g/mi but realistically that's not off by much. The Niro and sportage numbers are basically the same no matter the conditions...

Yes, but just think of how your household finances would change without two lease/loan payments. I've borrowed for a number of cars over the years: one practice I developed was to lease when the money factor from the manufacturer was favorable, and then buy the vehicle at the end of the lease term. That worked out pretty well. But I haven't had an auto loan since 2006, and I like it. Sure, I do drive cars that most would consider candidates for the scrapyard (by age and miles, not condition), but when I think about buying something new and expensive I conclude the pleasure/cost ratio isn't good.

An old friend and I went out to dinner the other night. I drove. He has a '23 Arteon, and I wondered what he thought about riding in my 21 year old Jetta one more time. The other side of that coin is we parked on the street in downtown Boston, and I don't worry about that car.

In a perfect world I would like to drive something that's better for the environment, but the question of what is actually better seems to be up for debate. So for now I'll save the energy and resources that would be required to build me a new car, and the same it would take to scrap mine.

 

[Daemon64]

A 2021 Polestar2 dual motor produces 104g CO2/mile on the Mass. grid and 157g CO2/mile on the US grid average. A dual motor Model 3 is 71g Mass grid and 108g US avg, respectively. Also, if you're counting the upstream emissions for the EV then you also need to count the upstream emissions for the ICEV- which would add about 40g CO2/mile for a 56 mpg vehicle. Rating the plug in hybrids is a bit trickier- I don't know what assumptions they make about battery usage.

Beyond Tailpipe Emissions: Results

This calculator allows you to estimate the total GHG emissions that would be associated with operating an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, including GHG emissions from the production and distribution of electricity used to power the vehicle.

www.fueleconomy.gov

Fueleconomy.gov gets their estimates based on the EPA rated efficiency of the car. My numbers are real world. Over the course of driving my 2022 P2 it has averaged 383 watts per mi. As for the CO2 I go by the state reporting which is found here https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/massachusetts/ which is 952lbs per megawatt hour ( it's gone down at 40lbs per megawatt hour since I last checked it 2yrs ago ).

(( 952lbs / 1000 kwh) * 454g per lb) 432.208 grams per kwh

432.208g / ( 1000w / 384 w/mi) = 165.967 g/mi

For reference car has been driven with cruise locked to 72mph on the highway, and most of my local driving is 30 - 40mph backroads. It has the 19" rims which are the smallest and the tires on the Michelin Crossclimate 2. This should be the most efficient version of this car that is dual motor. This is over 15,000 miles.

I give you all of this data so that you can cross and fact check... maybe I made a calculation error somewhere but I don't think so... the 384 watts / mi is taken right from the car and TBH I think because it's winter it's up right now... but I like to give a fighting chance...

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

If you're already driving a TDI, electric cars are an exercise in the classic "diminishing returns"- Many efficient small cars, even some of the hybrids, are down around that 100 gram/mile range and unless you've got a very renewable grid an EV doesn't accomplish much. On the other hand if you're driving a big ol' truck that gets 10 MPG or less an EV will be a big improvement, but an efficient hybrid will accomplish nearly the same CO2 reduction at lower cost without flat bedding an EV between chargers.

Sort of like my search for end of year energy tax credits- My car and house are already so efficient that insulation and windows don't accomplish enough energy use reduction to be worth it, and the one bad entry door is an oddball size I can't find.