real world EVs review

turbobrick240

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Don't get your panties bunched up. The comparison isn't any more stupid than comparing a 4k lb industrial electric motor to a 100 lb EV motor.
 

dieseldonato

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Don't get your panties bunched up. The comparison isn't any more stupid than comparing a 4k lb industrial electric motor to a 100 lb EV motor.
Sure it is, it's the equivalent of saying a briggs and Stratton is capable of 500hp and 1400 ft lbs of torque. Then what by your standard should we conclude? Tesla and other ev markers are grossly over rating their motors, or a standard frame motor rated for 500hp actually make 5000hp? Sorry, but something stinks with those ratings.
 

turbobrick240

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The ratings are legit, but like you alluded to, the duty cycles are far different. And the heavier motor will generally operate at a much lower rpm and produce gobs more torque. The same applies to heavy duty and less heavy duty diesels. Take a 500 HP Volvo semi and a 500 HP F250 6.7 and put them both on a Dyno with a 450 HP load and run them til they blow their guts. I doubt the 6.7 would last much more than 24 hours. You'd be refinancing your house to buy fuel for the Volvo.
 

dieseldonato

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The ratings are legit, but like you alluded to, the duty cycles are far different. And the heavier motor will generally operate at a much lower rpm and produce gobs more torque. The same applies to heavy duty and less heavy duty diesels. Take a 500 HP Volvo semi and a 500 HP F250 6.7 and put them both on a Dyno with a 450 HP load and run them til they blow their guts. I doubt the 6.7 would last much more than 24 hours. You'd be refinancing your house to buy fuel for the Volvo.
I worked heavy duty diesel for many years and am quite familiar with volvo engines. As a point of pride, I've been all across the usa to fix issues other dealers couldn't, including working on prototype type engines in field twsts, large co-gen installations, fire pumps for nuclear facilities, etc. Im a few years out if the loop, since i quite raod work, but i doibt much has changed. Their D13 in a prime power application is more like 300-350 hp. To get much more then that, you would step up to the D16 platform which has a prime rating up to 700hp. Neither are really fuel hogs. Compared to any cat engines, although Isuzu has them both beat in fuel efficiency of like sized and rated engines.
I'm assuming you're a chavy guy since you keep bringing up the Ford 6.7L engine, but I'll keep to what i know. I've seen the 6.6L duramax being tested to destruction in a test cell. When I was at Isuzu America for my T4F training. It was something like day 5 at 85% load. Just trucking along. The weakest point of those engines were and are the rods, that's well above the factory hp ratings and something like approaching 6k rpm. Fourtantly cummins isn't stupid enough to give pipe dream hp rating for smaller engines, and I have seen them run generators and pumps balls to the wall for days and weeks on end, with zero issues, like wise for dere, Isuzu, Scania and many more.
In my latter days as an over the road heavy duty diesel tech I did a lot of power generation work, both stand by and prime power applications. The closest, largest installation is down at York Hospital about a half hour from the shop. 12 D16 500kw generators. If I recall correctly, they had a 2k gallon primary tank and a 500 gallon back up tank, that would last them many days. I also wouldn't be refinancing anything to fuel anything, it's quite amusing that you assume you know what I can afford.
 

turbobrick240

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I worked heavy duty diesel for many years and am quite familiar with volvo engines. As a point of pride, I've been all across the usa to fix issues other dealers couldn't, including working on prototype type engines in field twsts, large co-gen installations, fire pumps for nuclear facilities, etc. Im a few years out if the loop, since i quite raod work, but i doibt much has changed. Their D13 in a prime power application is more like 300-350 hp. To get much more then that, you would step up to the D16 platform which has a prime rating up to 700hp. Neither are really fuel hogs. Compared to any cat engines, although Isuzu has them both beat in fuel efficiency of like sized and rated engines.
I'm assuming you're a chavy guy since you keep bringing up the Ford 6.7L engine, but I'll keep to what i know. I've seen the 6.6L duramax being tested to destruction in a test cell. When I was at Isuzu America for my T4F training. It was something like day 5 at 85% load. Just trucking along. The weakest point of those engines were and are the rods, that's well above the factory hp ratings and something like approaching 6k rpm. Fourtantly cummins isn't stupid enough to give pipe dream hp rating for smaller engines, and I have seen them run generators and pumps balls to the wall for days and weeks on end, with zero issues, like wise for dere, Isuzu, Scania and many more.
In my latter days as an over the road heavy duty diesel tech I did a lot of power generation work, both stand by and prime power applications. The closest, largest installation is down at York Hospital about a half hour from the shop. 12 D16 500kw generators. If I recall correctly, they had a 2k gallon primary tank and a 500 gallon back up tank, that would last them many days. I also wouldn't be refinancing anything to fuel anything, it's quite amusing that you assume you know what I can afford.
Lol, my point was just that the heavy duty Volvo engine is designed to operate at very heavy load(relative to it's factory rating) for a long time. That's why you often see engines designed to run a continuous heavy load duty cycle de-rated from applications where the duty cycle is less intense. Not attacking your ability to provide. Anyhow, just look at the 9.2s quarter mile times of the Tesla Model S Plaid if you doubt the power rating. Take a look at the power output of similarly heavy vehicles that can manage that time. Three motors, 1000 HP.

Edit: All of my trucks have been Fords and Yotas, btw. Well, my first truck was a Jeep Comanche if that counts. We had Fords, IH, and GMCs on the farm growing up. Currently have an '01 F250 7.3 that should be put back on the road.
 
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turbobrick240

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hskrdu

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I was pretty surprised when I saw this headline today:
Seems pretty close to a tipping point for EV adoption in this country.
The author, at least, wasn't surprised, remarking that CA was a "special case." Some thoughts and questions:

Is this close to a "tipping point," and how is that defined?

Is this tipping point / some threshold of car sales being EV's a wholly good thing?

To what extent have government subsidies / tax credits / financial incentives played in EV sales?

Is it surprising that EV sales and fleet penetration continue to grow during a period where the marketplace is responding both to federal (and some state) messaging regarding ambitious goals on lowering ICE passenger vehicle sales, as well as the EV offerings that are more palatable to consumers who (often rightfully so) had concerns over some EV characteristics?

EVs seem to be (generally) purchased by consumers who have the ability to charge the vehicle battery at home, at work, or have arranged neutral site charging. What percentage of US car owners does this comprise? Will the poorest Americans be most hard hit by mandates which promote EV's?

The cost of charging an EV battery can be offset for owners who can use solar or other lower-cost sources of electricity, but many consumers will be charging off a municipal electric grid. What should consumers expect for the cost of electricity as EV sales climb and demand for electricity rises? Will utility revenues outweigh increased utility costs, leading to lower rates for electricity as some models show, or will rising demand for electricity coupled with the cost of grid enhancements and upgrading transmission and distribution lead to significantly higher costs?
 

turbobrick240

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The author, at least, wasn't surprised, remarking that CA was a "special case." Some thoughts and questions:

I probably wouldn't be as surprised if I lived on the West coast or some other place where you see a million EVs on the road every day. Still, 25% is a pretty good chunk of new car sales.

Is this close to a "tipping point," and how is that defined?
I think so. Clearly the tipping point has already been reached in much of Europe and China. I would simply define "tipping point" as the point on a graph depicting EV sales that the line jumps toward a parabolic trajectory.

Is this tipping point / some threshold of car sales being EV's a wholly good thing?
For the most part, yes, imo. Not so great for those who tinker on combustion engines or sell petroleum products for a living perhaps, but for the greater good of the environment and society.

To what extent have government subsidies / tax credits / financial incentives played in EV sales?
Hard to say. To some extent, for sure.

Is it surprising that EV sales and fleet penetration continue to grow during a period where the marketplace is responding both to federal (and some state) messaging regarding ambitious goals on lowering ICE passenger vehicle sales, as well as the EV offerings that are more palatable to consumers who (often rightfully so) had concerns over some EV characteristics?
Nope, not surprising, the growth is inevitable.

EVs seem to be (generally) purchased by consumers who have the ability to charge the vehicle battery at home, at work, or have arranged neutral site charging. What percentage of US car owners does this comprise? Will the poorest Americans be most hard hit by mandates which promote EV's?
The proposed mandates are just for new car sales as far as I know. The poorest Americans generally buy used cars or none at all. I imagine the poor will do just as well, or poorly as they have in the past. Maybe there will be a glut of cheap, used ICE vehicles that nobody wants any longer.

The cost of charging an EV battery can be offset for owners who can use solar or other lower-cost sources of electricity, but many consumers will be charging off a municipal electric grid. What should consumers expect for the cost of electricity as EV sales climb and demand for electricity rises? Will utility revenues outweigh increased utility costs, leading to lower rates for electricity as some models show, or will rising demand for electricity coupled with the cost of grid enhancements and upgrading transmission and distribution lead to significantly higher costs?
That's difficult to predict. But longer term, electricity will probably get cheaper as the cost of renewable energy from wind and solar continues to plummet, and grids get smarter.
 

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turbobrick240 said:
hskrdu said:
The author, at least, wasn't surprised, remarking that CA was a "special case." Some thoughts and questions:

I probably wouldn't be as surprised if I lived on the West coast or some other place where you see a million EVs on the road every day. Still, 25% is a pretty good chunk of new car sales.

When they're given preferential treatment across the board in certain areas, of course they'll proliferate. It's just another form of subsidy. I agree California is not a metric by which the industry can be compared as a whole.


Is this close to a "tipping point," and how is that defined?
I think so. Clearly the tipping point has already been reached in much of Europe and China. I would simply define "tipping point" as the point on a graph depicting EV sales that the line jumps toward a parabolic trajectory.

I don't think we're even close. The infrastructure doesn't exist on any appreciable scale to come close to a tipping point. While EV sales may be increasing, it's due to organizational manipulation rather than organically happening.


Is this tipping point / some threshold of car sales being EV's a wholly good thing?
For the most part, yes, imo. Not so great for those who tinker on combustion engines or sell petroleum products for a living perhaps, but for the greater good of the environment and society.

Being "good" for the environment and society is one of the most heavily debated topics today. High initial carbon footprints of EV's is difficult to overcome given their lifespan, which is projected (theoretical) rather than actual. The high cost of batteries, not only in replacement but initial cost and disposal, coupled with their dwindling material construction, again show they are not currently a viable long term strategy. We all hear that "technology" will invent something better, and while that is true, it is also true on the ICE side.


To what extent have government subsidies / tax credits / financial incentives played in EV sales?
Hard to say. To some extent, for sure.

Be honest here, it's a huge factor. It's not hard to say at all, I'm not sure why some people can't simply admit it.

Is it surprising that EV sales and fleet penetration continue to grow during a period where the marketplace is responding both to federal (and some state) messaging regarding ambitious goals on lowering ICE passenger vehicle sales, as well as the EV offerings that are more palatable to consumers who (often rightfully so) had concerns over some EV characteristics?
Nope, not surprising, the growth is inevitable.

Only if the growth being inevitable means being forced down that path. Yes, there are more incentives for EV's, even my work considered one due to the reduced pricing (subsidies) and was going to 'give it a try' due to the artificial benefit/loss ratio.

EVs seem to be (generally) purchased by consumers who have the ability to charge the vehicle battery at home, at work, or have arranged neutral site charging. What percentage of US car owners does this comprise? Will the poorest Americans be most hard hit by mandates which promote EV's?
The proposed mandates are just for new car sales as far as I know. The poorest Americans generally buy used cars or none at all. I imagine the poor will do just as well, or poorly as they have in the past. Maybe there will be a glut of cheap, used ICE vehicles that nobody wants any longer.

I don't think there will be a glut of cheap ICE vehicles, at least not until charging costs come down, efficiency goes up, charging becomes more commonplace, and mileage between charges grows exponentially. I know a number of people with solar, us included, and the EV market is just not palatable yet for many factors. It's still a niche market and I don't see that changing anytime soon due to the disflavoring pressure of doing away with ICE vehicles.
Americans want to make their own decisions and not have them made for them. Recent companies found this out the hard way and are paying the price.

The cost of charging an EV battery can be offset for owners who can use solar or other lower-cost sources of electricity, but many consumers will be charging off a municipal electric grid. What should consumers expect for the cost of electricity as EV sales climb and demand for electricity rises? Will utility revenues outweigh increased utility costs, leading to lower rates for electricity as some models show, or will rising demand for electricity coupled with the cost of grid enhancements and upgrading transmission and distribution lead to significantly higher costs?
That's difficult to predict. But longer term, electricity will probably get cheaper as the cost of renewable energy from wind and solar continues to plummet, and grids get smarter.

Oh please, you live in a state where they just increased their electric rates 49% for the Standard Offer (supply), or 27% overall (supply & demand combined), at one time! And there is talk of it going up again next year, to the point the State is considering a takeover. The Grid cannot handle the electric load now, and we've been over this a number of times, so until it's upgraded (at a massive expense), it's just wishful thinking. Once it is upgraded, which I do believe will happen over time with Billions of taxpayer (federal) money, they'll charge a premium due to that upgrade. Wind and solar will help but the demands of the people, along with millions of people entering the country every year (over 2.76 Million illegals last year alone according to the US Customs & Border Protection) and they all consume electricity. The overall US population is far outstripping the ability to produce enough electricity, putting more of a strain on an already stressed system. So while the capital cost of EV charging will come down due to efficiencies and innovation, the costs to use them will increase at a much higher rate.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Yet another Electric car vertue signaling thread. Same b.s., same players.

Tipping point? California. Tipping into the great abiss.


Yeah California ban diesels, world leader in over regulated Ice, insane anything non mass transit...


Even the people that were roped into certain EV's have had regrets as the incentives vaporize. Such as; free commute lane pass is no longer, electric rates (nessasarily) exponentially gone nuts,

derelict charging stations, realized range anxiety,


on and on. Often cost less to drive on petrol only. If you were smart enough to buy a plug in and also live where price per kw is o.k. or you already have overpriced solar you may recap $ in xx years.

Take it from one who lives in this nutty state


Yeah Ca. Is a confused mess

 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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I was pretty surprised when I saw this headline today:


Seems pretty close to a tipping point for EV adoption in this country.
This is funny. One of the big talking points around the autoworkers' strike is how the Big 3 have failed at designing and building EVs that effectively compete with Tesla and that people want to buy. And how company profitability is entirely dependent on continuing to sell big SUVs and trucks.

Driving home last night I saw a Model 3 and it struck me that Tesla ownership may just be a fad among the wealthy. It could just pass, and we'll be where we were before they came on the scene.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The Ford stock report has not been good. They've lost some serious money trying this EV thing. And much of those losses have been pawned off on the taxpayers.

Now someone is wanting to bring a Chinavolt battery "factory" here, but it isn't really that. It is a loophole final assembly facility to dodge something. Remember what Toyota did back in the '80s to avoid the Chicken Tax on pickups? They started "building" them here... only by building, they were just a quick final assembly.... they built in Japan fully functional cab-chassis pickups, imported them as a part (Toyota even assigned an actual part number to them), then another part... the bed.. was imported unpainted. They painted the beds here, installed the tail lamps, and "completed" the "American made" truck. Voila! No Chicken Tax! The final assembly consisted of a grand total of about 15 individual part numbers. The cab-chassis, the bed, the L/R tail lights, the two license plate lights, the back bumper, and the paint, and the bolts/nuts to attach it. That's it.

And if you ever noticed how those late '80s trucks five years out of the factory started to have faded paint on just the bed, while the cab still looked OK, that's why. The Japanese plant had an actual paint shop to paint the cabs and a bake room to cure them. The Fremont CA plant had a dude named Larry and an air compressor and spray gun to squirt the beds and roll them out in the CA sun to dry.

Subaru took a different route: they bolted seats in the beds of the Brat. No more "truck", now it's a "car" with an open roof back seat!
 

jmodge

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Yet another Electric car vertue signaling thread. Same b.s., same players.

Tipping point? California. Tipping into the great abiss.


Yeah California ban diesels, world leader in over regulated Ice, insane anything non mass transit...


Even the people that were roped into certain EV's have had regrets as the incentives vaporize. Such as; free commute lane pass is no longer, electric rates (nessasarily) exponentially gone nuts,

derelict charging stations, realized range anxiety,


on and on. Often cost less to drive on petrol only. If you were smart enough to buy a plug in and also live where price per kw is o.k. or you already have overpriced solar you may recap $ in xx years.

Take it from one who lives in this nutty state


Yeah Ca. Is a confused mess

The compostmobile, I think I could get away with that. But the Hot Air Mobile has the more likely future for the masses
 

turbobrick240

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This is funny. One of the big talking points around the autoworkers' strike is how the Big 3 have failed at designing and building EVs that effectively compete with Tesla and that people want to buy. And how company profitability is entirely dependent on continuing to sell big SUVs and trucks.

Driving home last night I saw a Model 3 and it struck me that Tesla ownership may just be a fad among the wealthy. It could just pass, and we'll be where we were before they came on the scene.
I don't think EVs or Teslas are a fad. We drove up Rt. 1 to Acadia national park yesterday. We passed at least 8 Teslas. Zero VW TDIs. Were those just a fad? Just a few years ago the situation was reversed. We'll see where we're at in a few years from now.
 

turbobrick240

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Meaningless, because nobody lives their life a quarter mile at a time.
I posted that video to demonstrate that Tesla and other EV manufacturers aren't BS'ing the power figures of their cars as one poster suggested. It takes some serious horsepower to motivate a 4.5k+ lb car down the quarter mile in 9.3ish seconds. And there are actually people that enjoy taking their cars to the drag strip.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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That experience could reinforce my thought that it's a fad. Diesel powered cars weren't a fad, they were a very small niche. And there haven't been any new ones sold in NA for a while, so I'm not surprised you didn't see any, although few people would be able to easily identify my BMW as a diesel.
 

turbobrick240

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Well, the Teslas definitely stand out from the crowd more, that's true. It's possible I may have missed a TDI or two, but I don't think so. I hardly see them around here any longer in general. They must have scrapped a pretty large percentage of the commonrails- I used to see them frequently.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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We've sold nearly 400 timing belt kits for '10-'14 4 cylinder TDIs so far this year, so there are some out there.
 

kjclow

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Coming through the Blue Ridge mountains last week, I passed a model 3 pulling a pop up camper. I wanted to slow down and follow him to see how often he was stopping to charge but wanted to get home more. The camper was about two feet wider and a foot or so taller than the car and I don't remember seeing any type of towing mirror. No way for him to know what's coming up behind him.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I'm doing a timing belt on a 352k mile 2004 TDI today.

And a thermostat (and other things) on a 518k mile 2011 TDI.

Completed an oil cooler job on a 175k mile 2014 T'reg TDI yesterday.

Three more here awaiting various things.

So yeah, plenty here.
 

Daemon64

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The whole tipping point and luxury for the wealthy is my thinking at this point.

I was doing some math the other day and came to the conclusion that basically a gas vehicle that can get around X threshold is currently more environmentally friendly than an EV.

In mass which is lower in CO2 output than the US grid its .992 lbs of CO2 / kilowatt hour so depending on the EV lets say the P2 which is a fairly efficient in EV terms averaging 95MPGE / hwy which is 355 watts /mi, the P2 produces 159.74 g/CO2 per mile.

Gas Vehicle highway efficiency needed to Produce only 159.74 g/mi ( 20lbs of CO2 in 1 gallon of gasoline, 453.592 grams in a pound ) -- 57 MPG -- This comes out to 159.16 g/mi -- Prius comes pretty close at 53MPG EPA highway rating. Prius if added small turbo, & plasma spark could likely get there or better.

Diesel Vehicle Efficiency needed to Produce only 159.74 g/mi ( 22.45lbs of CO2 in 1 gallon of diesel, 453.592 grams in a pound ) -- 64 MPG -- This comes out to 159.12 g/mi of CO2

Carbon capture Synthetic fuels have a lifecycle reduction of 85% end to end emissions. --- A current diesel vehicle could get 9.56 MPG and be at the same emissions as the P2 -- More realistically say a Golf TDI would be at around 40 MPG we'll say which we know is LOW for that car, thats 38 net gain grams of co2 / mi

Like I just don't understand, we could get better emissions than electrics if the right technologies were implemented on gas and diesel vehicles, and on top of that carbon capture synythetic fuels, and we 100% beat electrics with existing vehicle stock by large swaths

*edited to account for trucks*

Rivian R1T BEST rating is 74MPGE highway and worst is 60 MPGE highway --- ( 455.5 Wh/mi to 561.8 Wh/mi or 204.96 g/mi to 252.79 g/mi ) --

So pickup truck equiv in gas 44.26 MPG -- 35.89 MPG
Pickup truck equiv in diesel 49.68 MPG -- 40.28 MPG

Hummer EV gets WAY worse than Rivian

So maybe the answer is: Raise the standards for vehicles in Gas / Diesel applications and be done with it. The whole "this might make the truck more expensive"... like it CANT be more expensive than producing an EV and selling that to consumers.
 
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turbodieseldyke

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Coming through the Blue Ridge mountains last week, I passed a model 3 pulling a pop up camper. I wanted to slow down and follow him to see how often he was stopping to charge but wanted to get home more. The camper was about two feet wider and a foot or so taller than the car and I don't remember seeing any type of towing mirror. No way for him to know what's coming up behind him.
The camper is a great place to keep a generator.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
..... [bunch of smart stuff]...

So maybe the answer is: Raise the standards for vehicles in Gas / Diesel applications and be done with it. The whole "this might make the truck more expensive"... like it CANT be more expensive than producing an EV and selling that to consumers.
Or, perhaps the answer needs a different question: Why do Americans still predominantly buy large inefficient vehicles? You can legislate all you want, if people won't buy them, then.... ???
 

Daemon64

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Or, perhaps the answer needs a different question: Why do Americans still predominantly buy large inefficient vehicles? You can legislate all you want, if people won't buy them, then.... ???
Cafe standards is the answer.

Manufacturers have an incentive to make bigger vehicles. If those were universal standards it'd go the other way.

This guy breaks it down really well:
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I still say it boils down to consumers (and we are also the same folks that are voters, so.... ). We DO (did) have a choice. We've made poor ones, including legislating ourselves into overpriced overcomplicated thirsty nonsense.

What I find silly too is now that little off road vehicles are all gone (CJ5, Samurai, Rocky, stuff like that) now people are turning to spending $15-25k on these UTVs and driving them around on public roads. Not only do these not have nearly as strict of emissions standards, but they have very little safety standards as compared to a car. And then the fact that they are not licensed, so... are they insured? If someone plows into my Golf with their new 100+hp Polaris Ranger, they are going to do some serious damage (and probably all be dead).

We also now have the new thing of OBD test dodging in my area... the wonderful "historic vehicle" plates. Yep, OBD2 compliant cars can now be "classics", and once you get that plate, it is essentially permanent, and that vehicle isn't subjected to OBD testing ever again, and for that matter, no safety inspections either!

So that clapped out, rusted, oil burning POS 1997 Suburban can motor on in perpetuity with parts falling off and puddles of juices everywhere it parks.

People make poor choices.

People won't let themselves be policed more than they have to.

I am pissed that I cannot buy a single new diesel passenger car, and hardly any small cars period, yet I can buy as many pump-sucking new pickups as I please. And now I can slap historic plates on my [rarely driven] workhorse F-trucks because they are 25+ years old.

(but we should crush all those nasty 50 MPG "dirty" diesels!)

I'll watch the video later (when I have sound), thanks for the link. However, I still think that if consumers were buying up every single cab long bed compact truck they made back when they sold them here, and the larger ones sat and gathered dust, we'd still be able to buy them. EPA or not. Consumers did that. Ford didn't ax the Fiesta and Focus because people were buying them. Chevy didn't ax the Sonic and Cruze because people were buying them. And all these miserable ugly awful to drive crossdresser things wouldn't be all over the damn place if people were NOT buying them (seriously, look at some manufacturers' lineups now.... that's just about all it is... crossdressers).,
 

turbodieseldyke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Location
Free Mustache Rides
TDI
Big ol' honkin' tdis
Why do Americans still predominantly buy large inefficient vehicles?
When a Mini Cooper collides with a Yukon, who wins, or more aptly, who loses the most?

When enough retards on the road drive more GVWR than they need, others (ie, women) will instinctively feel unsafe, and opt for a bigger vehicle. Also, people getting fatter and fatter makes it harder to get in/out of a small car.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well I'm fat, and I can get in and out of my small cars just fine... and since I don't crash, that's not an issue either.

Besides, a Freightliner Cascadia pulling a 53' trailer collides with a Yukon. Who wins?

There's always a bigger fish. Do the laws of physics differ in Europe, where the Golf and Focus and smaller vehicles sell well?

I'm betting better driver education helps.
 
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