real world EVs review

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
LMAO, he's still trying.... not sure what more I could do if pictures were not proof enough. I'm certainly not going to go in there and BUY one!

Maybe the world exists differently outside of Maine. Come to think of it, when I was there, I never saw a single dealership of ANY brand ANYWHERE. Hmmmm.....
My experience: I reserved a couple test drives at some Tesla showroom in a mall. The place was so tiny, it had only room for 2 or 3 cars. They take you downstairs to the parking garage, show you how to put the car in "gear", give you the key and say "Come back in 30-40 minutes". Nobody's working on commission so there's not pressure to buy anything.

Then when I decided to buy, I went to the website and ordered the car that I wanted. There's not a lot of choices - the Model 3 has 3 trim levels (RWD, short range, AWD long range and AWD Performance), 4 colors and a couple of wheel choices. They give you a tentative delivery date. If a similar car happens to show up in nearby inventory (which is likely since there are so few trims) before the delivery date, you might get an email giving you the option to take that one earlier instead if you want.

Then on the delivery date, I went to the "delivery center" and the car was there. You look it over carefully and if nothing is wrong with it, you sign the paper and drive it home.

If you want to call that a "dealer" experience, fine. But nobody tried to sell me VIN etching, undercoating or an extended warranty. And when I showed up, they were expecting me. Both the Chevy and VW dealers had no record that I'd booked an appointment for a test drive. I'm 57 and this was literally my first time taking a test drive at a dealer and both "real" dealers f'd it up, so I'm not regretting all the dealership experiences that I missed out on in my youth.

Dealerships suck. Many states have laws that try to prevent automakers from selling directly to the consumers and those laws got put on the books due to lobbying by the dealers. All you small government folks ought to be ticked off about that instead of getting bent out of shape about some automaker trying to do something different.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
One nice perk about road tripping with an EV is that many hotels offer free charging. That both saves time and money. I take a much more relaxed approach to road trips these days. I used to do the max distance in a day thing, but that's not much fun at all. You miss out on a lot of the scenery driving after dark too.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
One nice perk about road tripping with an EV is that many hotels offer free charging. That both saves time and money. I take a much more relaxed approach to road trips these days. I used to do the max distance in a day thing, but that's not much fun at all. You miss out on a lot of the scenery driving after dark too.
Didn't happen to get a hotel with an EV charger this time, but all the hotels are booked up on Boilermaker weekend (14,000+ runners) so if you don't book early, you don't get a lot of choices.

So far I haven't minded the extra time that charging adds to a road trip. Being older and driving with the whole family definitely results in fewer miles driven per day - nobody wants to be in the car for 10+ hours. And charging is pretty relaxing compared to pumping gas. You can go get a snack, use the bathroom or do some shopping while the car is filling up. Or if you just want to sit in the car and take a nap, the AC or heat will be on while you wait for the charging to finish.

But to be fair, one downside of EVs is that because there aren't nearly as many charging locations as gas stations, it's harder to take the scenic route. The fast chargers are mostly along major highways so you're going to need to stay close to them during your trip.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
When I had my dog what I appreciated about my TDI's range is not having to stop at service centers. Parker was very sensitive to noise and I could stop at rest areas (Virginia has particularly nice ones) and take him for a quiet walk far from the highway. Since I didn't have to worry about finding fuel it gave me more options.

I recently visited a family member in Vermont, about a 300 mile round trip. I started the trip with a little more than a half tank in my Golf, and of course made it up and back without refueling. Traffic on 93 was running particularly fast that Sunday: I touched 100 MPH a couple times on the way home. Stopping to charge in either direction would have made the difference between making it back in time to make dinner for my elderly mom, or not. This is the kind of scenario that steers me away from any EV.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Volvo C40 is gone. Wife was able to turn in for literally 0. No disposition fee, literally 0.

Aaaaaaand 2023 Black Golf R 20th Edition 6speed is purchased, just waiting for registration / delivery which should be by wednesday the latest.







That's a nice f**king car! Never thought blue calipers would look so good on black (I always think yellow or red), but yeah, that Golf looks badass!
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
When I had my dog what I appreciated about my TDI's range is not having to stop at service centers. Parker was very sensitive to noise and I could stop at rest areas (Virginia has particularly nice ones) and take him for a quiet walk far from the highway. Since I didn't have to worry about finding fuel it gave me more options.

I recently visited a family member in Vermont, about a 300 mile round trip. I started the trip with a little more than a half tank in my Golf, and of course made it up and back without refueling. Traffic on 93 was running particularly fast that Sunday: I touched 100 MPH a couple times on the way home. Stopping to charge in either direction would have made the difference between making it back in time to make dinner for my elderly mom, or not. This is the kind of scenario that steers me away from any EV.
What's with all the gurus/vendors touching 100? I thought I drove fast; rode with Brian once and we did 140mph for a good stretch on the way to the VW dealership!

I'm impressed you did the round trip with fuel to spare. I remember going from Maine to Vermont - that drive was very scenic, but SOOOO SLOW! Right when the speed limit bumped to 55 or so, you'd get to another town and then it was back to 30, or less. I just remember towns like China, ME and Mexico, ME.

And you're absolutely right - there are some gorgeous rest stops in VA, but also in WV. Thankfully, Elsa seems to be oblivious to exterior stimuli for the most part. We once did a protection training class, and the sound of gunshots didn't ever make her flinch.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Traveling with my dog is one of the main reasons I've adopted the more relaxed approach to traveling. I've found that it's much more pleasant for myself as well. I used to arrive at my destinations with a very sore left shoulder. That stopped once I wasn't doing ultra marathon driving torture sessions.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
And to beat the "dealer" dead horse one more time:
  • The place I took a test drive is just for test drives. They don't service them, you can't order one and you can't take delivery of one there.
  • I ordered the car from a web site using my home computer.
  • I paid for the car by uploading my proof of insurance and bank info into an app on my phone.
  • The place I took delivery of the car from doesn't do test drives and doesn't service them.
  • The place that I'll eventually have mine serviced doesn't do test drives and you can't pick up a new car there.
It sounds like there are places that combine several of those. Feel free to call them dealers, but they're lacking many of the things that make a traditional dealership special such as someone working on commission trying to get you to finance through them, sell you unneeded extras, and push you to trade in your existing car for less than it's worth.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I guess I've been fortunate in that all my dealer experiences have been good... but other than the Mini, I also knew people there. Unfortunately due to bad blood between the dealer that I worked at that sells BMWs and BMW corporate, they did NOT get a Mini franchise offered to them, so I had to go outside the loop. But I had a very quick, easy, pleasant experience. There was no pressure to upsell the car, as I contacted them (via email) and already knew what I wanted.

We did have to sign off on any BMW/Mini-sanctioned extended warranty or service plans, which I was not pressured whatsoever to get, they just had to show them to us quickly, and have us sign off (took 10 seconds).

The Accent I bought for my in-laws I just gave them a credit card number over the phone, and picked it up the next day with the remaining sum in the form of a cashier's check. I never even talked to a salesperson, just the sales manager.

Dealers make very little off of [re]selling a new car. The manufacturer builds in a payment (you can call it a commission, whatever you like) to cover the service department's labor costs of the PDI, and any pre-sale cleanup (which on a new car isn't much). PDI is Pre Delivery Inspection, and it varies by model but involves things like removal of any protective coverings (Wrapguard, etc.), snapping on wheel covers or center caps, installing air dams and other low hanging trim that might interfere with transport, roof rails on some taller models that again may interfere with clearance on transports, sometimes coil spring compression limiters, lowering the overinflated air pressure in the tires and initializing things like TPMS, automatic pinch protection in windows, setting clocks, setting compass and telematics stuff where applicable, etc.

And often, if the salesperson does not get a demo, or they pass on getting one, they will get a higher base draw. And if it is a "commissionless" sales, that base draw is ALL they get anyway (otherwise known as a salary). There isn't anyone at any dealership (both real and non-existent ones) that is there working for free. It's called capitalism. Tesla is no different. They produce a product, they sell a product, and each individual along the line from the folks at the defunct resurrected NUMMI plant in California putting them together, to the transportation people, to the people that PDI them, to the people that deliver them, etc. are all earning a paycheck. It isn't a not-for-profit organization (Elon's exploits alone should be proof positive of that!).

I've been in and around the automotive world in some form since I was a teenager, and I know SO MANY people in so many places in that world. They are all in it to make money, and how they do it may vary slightly based on what they think their intended consumer demographic will go for. Since "Tesla people" seem to be a pretty tech-heavy bunch, they're going to slant towards that. But I'm sure Tesla also wants to sell cars to people that don't use the internet, maybe don't do anything on social media, may not even have a cellular phone. Just like Ford wants to sell F150s to people that do.

Now maybe this Tesla "Store and Gallery" is not a common type of establishment (I do not know). And maybe they realized their overall demographic here in Missouri was slanted towards people who wanted a more traditional interaction, so that's why. This is the "Show-Me" state after all. And maybe that's why they have so much inventory, because they DO handle the walk-in people who purchase cars. Some of you may be surprised that is still how quite a few new cars are still sold. They are not ordered. They are not "shopped" much. People walk in and buy one and drive it home. All in the same day. That's why a big dealer inventory offering a larger selection is going to work best for those situations.

I've done both. I special spec ordered this Mini. It did not exist until I ordered it. Three months to the day later, we drove it home. But I also bought a new F150 in 1993, and I was going to buy one that day I had decided. Luckily for me, Dave Sinclair Ford right here local was (and may still be) the largest Ford retailer in the central region from Canada to the Gulf, and since what I was after was a pretty common package at the time (XL trim, 4.9L, 5sp, regular cab, long bed, 2WD) is was simply a matter of picking out what color I wanted, and Dave Sinclair had literally at least one of each in that configuration (they had over 200 F150s on their lot at that time). I picked one out, drove it home less than 30 minutes later.

Now on the no haggling part, I have to think given the cost of these Teslas that they are indeed a fairly profitable car line for the company, and that just because no "pressure" was felt in the sales process doesn't mean they didn't make more money off the sale of a $50k unit than Lexus would off the sale of one of their $50k units. In fact, they may make SO much profit, that is why they are not super concerned about any trade ins, which are usually a cash cow and are often a double or triple profit maker for any dealer. Especially now, where the used car market is bananas crazy with markups. We're a dealer here (at least boss likes to play one... sort of more a broker), and he's not messed with any sales in over a year now because of it. Too competitive, and he likes money so he won't bother until it has settled back down, which it might not ever.

Speaking of Lexus, I'll give an example (I know this well, because I worked there). A salesman may make $1000 off the sale of a new $50k GS. He takes the trade in car, also a GS (Lexus owners tend to be habitual) that is only three years old. The cost differential, what the trade in value the owner gets, and the value of the car retail back on the pre-owned lot, is $3000. Now this $3k profit gets eaten up... the used car department has to go through and evaluate it, and get it up to Lexus CPO standards. This might eat away $1k of that $3k. Now if that same salesman can sell that same CPO car, he'll get another half of whatever is remaining, so he will have doubled his commission intake on that same deal (the remaining $1k on the CPO sale will have gone to the dealer itself).

What would get these salesmen in trouble, would be that they'd get overzealous on these used car sales. They'd call a potential buyer up (they all had extensive contact lists) and "sell" this used car as a CPO, before the service department had a chance to actually do the certification! And then they'd get all bent out of shape if the car took more to get it to that level (like it needed brakes, or tires, or whatever) or worse, if it didn't meet the CPO at all because of some unseen past damage or something (Lexus is very picky about that). And that happened more often than it should have. Good salesmen would let the techs at least give the potential trade in a quick look over, especially if it was not a car we had sold new and normally serviced.
 
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gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
Ok, so sounds like the VW and Chevy dealer I went to aren't very good, or I got unlucky. Or if they're really not earning much commission, they don't care that much if they keep a record of when you're coming in for a test drive.

I had a better experience buying my Golf at a used car dealership in Hartford, CT, and used car dealers don't have a great reputation in general.

But I'm sure Tesla also wants to sell cars to people that don't use the internet, maybe don't do anything on social media, may not even have a cellular phone.
I would think they'd want that, but the way they have things set up, it'd be pretty hard to own one if you didn't have a phone. You can probably order one from a showroom if you didn't have access to the internet at home. They have some PCs set up there for the people who work there, so maybe they'd order one for you if wanted, but that never came up when I was there.

Normally you'd use their app on your phone to lock/unlock the car, but you get 2 wallet card keys with the car and can use those instead.

The big problem you'd run into right now if you didn't have a smart phone would be getting it serviced. The only way (that I know of anyway) to make a service appointment is through the app on your phone. They could change that easy enough if they wanted to (e.g. allow that on a web site or set up a call center for phone appointments), but right now the phone app is the only way.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think it is an evolving thing, and maybe this is why Tesla seems to be the only one here making headway in EV sales, while the others stagnate and gather dust, or just plain get discontinued. Because the average Tesla buyer craves this techie type interaction, and using a smart phone to be able to work the car, etc.

Some of us not only don't want that, we despise it. I actually LIKE driving. I like the noise, the feel, the connection, etc. I have no desire to drive an iPhone.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
As I reported this week, I got 3.7 miles/kWh on last weekend's 550 mile round trip to Utica for an average cost of 9.5 cents/mile. I've mostly been driving the speed limit or 5mph over but it's been pretty hot so the AC was running all the time. Electricity prices in the North East are higher than down South. The supercharger in Utica, NY was $0.40/kWh. Lee and Palmer, MA were $0.41/kWh (though Lee was $0.35/kWh in March). The cheapest I've paid at a supercharger was $0.32/kWh in Norfolk, VA in April.

DC fast charging is almost always going to cost more than charging at home, but for me (and I'm sure most others), the bulk of charging happens at home/work L2 chargers. I can charge at home for $0.30/kWh (8.1 cents/mile) and my wife can charge at work for $0.20/kWh (5.4 cents/mile). If we lived down South instead of NE, it would be significantly cheaper. If you're looking for excuses not to buy an EV (and I've heard many), I don't think fuel cost is a valid one.
I pay .20/kWh at home and 0/kWh at work, so when I occasionally use a DC charger on the road, what I use the rest of the time more than offsets the DC charger prices.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The new car market is definitely evolving. And the non cell phone owning/ internet using demographic is rapidly shrinking into obscurity. I have a couple of neighbors that don't own cell phones, but they aren't buying any new cars either.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
What's with all the gurus/vendors touching 100? I thought I drove fast; rode with Brian once and we did 140mph for a good stretch on the way to the VW dealership!

I'm impressed you did the round trip with fuel to spare. I remember going from Maine to Vermont - that drive was very scenic, but SOOOO SLOW! Right when the speed limit bumped to 55 or so, you'd get to another town and then it was back to 30, or less. I just remember towns like China, ME and Mexico, ME.
Since the start of the pandemic drivers are have been moving progressively faster on interstates around here. My run to work on an old, limited access 2 lane highway, is now at 80 MPH where a few years ago it was at 70-75. And at the peak of the pandemic, when state troopers were not allowed to to pull over cars unless they were driving recklessly, it wasn't uncommon to go 90+. I drove my daughter to the airport very early on Monday, and while running at 85 I had someone tailgate me and flash me to move over. The speed limit on that road is 60.

Paul, you discovered there are no east/west roads in Maine or NH. You're stuck on older state highways that run through towns. North/south is the only directions where you can use interstates. Similarly, the only north/south road in CT is I91. I95 shows north/south, but in CT it actually runs east/west.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I live not too far off of Rt 3 in Maine, and the "traffic" moves along at a comfortable pace. It goes East/west from the capitol/I95 to the coast. I've noticed that drivers are much more chill as you get away from urban areas. Then there's the wide open, lightly inhabitated stretches out west where you can put the pedal to the metal and mostly have the road to yourself.
 

Daemon64

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2019
Location
Tyngsborough, Massachusetts
TDI
2022 Polestar 2 BEV - Current, 2021 Q5 55e PHEV - Retired, 2015 Q5 3.0 TDI - Retired, 2013 Golf TDI - Retired
Since the start of the pandemic drivers are have been moving progressively faster on interstates around here. My run to work on an old, limited access 2 lane highway, is now at 80 MPH where a few years ago it was at 70-75. And at the peak of the pandemic, when state troopers were not allowed to to pull over cars unless they were driving recklessly, it wasn't uncommon to go 90+. I drove my daughter to the airport very early on Monday, and while running at 85 I had someone tailgate me and flash me to move over. The speed limit on that road is 60.

Paul, you discovered there are no east/west roads in Maine or NH. You're stuck on older state highways that run through towns. North/south is the only directions where you can use interstates. Similarly, the only north/south road in CT is I91. I95 shows north/south, but in CT it actually runs east/west.
yeah i noticed the same thing. I used to be the "fast" driver rolling through in the around like 75-78 maybe 80, and now i am the "slow" driver, and I'm like what the heck man... like if you get pulled over doing 80 in a 55, or 85 in a 65 the fine is just not worth it... people are wildin
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
This is why I ultimately had to retire the '91 Jetta from daily driving duties. It can do 80, so long as it isn't too hot out, but hot days with the A/C running more like 70 to 75 is about it, and it will slow on hills. 52hp can only do so much.

Even though the posted speed limit stayed the same, actually went down to 65 for some of it, the average speeds of the traffic has gone up. 80+ is pretty normal. My biggest issues is the D-wads that camp in the center or left lanes.... I don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about the fact that you are in the wrong lane if other drivers are streaming past you on the right. But every morning, that's what happens.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Drivers up here very rarely camp out in the fast lane. Invariably it's someone from out of state when it does happen in the summer. Seems to be the norm when I travel though. On some stretches (mostly out of state) the slow lane road surface is quite rough compared to the fast lane, so I can sort of understand, but they could at least switch lanes when faster traffic is coming up behind.
 

J_dude

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Location
SK Canada
TDI
2003 1.9l “Jedi”
On some stretches (mostly out of state) the slow lane road surface is quite rough compared to the fast lane, so I can sort of understand, but they could at least switch lanes when faster traffic is coming up behind.
Yeah that’s what I do when I end up on a long desolate stretch, which in Saskatchewan is pretty common 😂
But yeah, at least move over when someone comes flying up behind you, some people don’t get that though. Entitled attitude maybe? Lol
 

dieseldonato

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Location
Us
TDI
2001 jetta
Come out of Philly on rt1 heading to the turnpike. 90+mph is normal and the cops won't even pull out if traffic is heavy. There's 6 lanes before it necks down at the turnpike interchange to 3. The turnpike is its own cluster depending on the time of day and area you're in. Actually thinking about it seems just about every major highway around here runs quite a bit faster then the speed limit most of the time.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
One of the highways I travel on in my commute has 5 lanes on each side. The limit is 55, but I do 65-70 off to the right and they fly by me like I'm standing still. So much for $3.50+ gas prices.
 

Jr mason

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
01 Beetle, 2012 Jetta
I'm good with that, too, just as soon as the fossil fuel companies lose all their tax credits. I'm tired of paying for more sh*t getting dumped into the atmosphere.
Invalid comparison, by a mile. Ain't nobody getting $7500 back on a new purchase of an ICE vehicle.
Nobody.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
Ain't nobody getting $7500 back on a new purchase of an ICE vehicle.
I was curious about this statement, so I did some back of the napkin math. Reuters reports the fossil fuel industry gets between $10billion and $50billion per year in subsidies. Another search says the USA consumes about 134 billion gallons of gas a year. Let's take the $10b number. That means for each gallon of gas the gov't is kicking back $0.074.

Assume my Benz gets 20 mpg. That means it's used about 12,000 gallons of fuel, and would be about $900 in subsidies. (Yes I know I jumped from gas to diesel here. This is back of the napkin math remember!)
If we assume their subsidies are at $50b instead, that number grows to $0.37 / gallon, and $4500 back in subsidies.

-J
 

Jr mason

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
01 Beetle, 2012 Jetta
I was curious about this statement, so I did some back of the napkin math. Reuters reports the fossil fuel industry gets between $10billion and $50billion per year in subsidies. Another search says the USA consumes about 134 billion gallons of gas a year. Let's take the $10b number. That means for each gallon of gas the gov't is kicking back $0.074.

Assume my Benz gets 20 mpg. That means it's used about 12,000 gallons of fuel, and would be about $900 in subsidies. (Yes I know I jumped from gas to diesel here. This is back of the napkin math remember!)
If we assume their subsidies are at $50b instead, that number grows to $0.37 / gallon, and $4500 back in subsidies.

-J
When can I expect that $4500 tax credit on my return?

Don't get my hopes up?
OK, so we have another invalid comparison.
 
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