real world EVs review

turbobrick240

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This article gives some more details on the Supercharger network expansion and opening up to the other automakers:


And VW seems to finally have got the memo that they should be capitalizing on the Golf/GTI brand for their next gen EVs.
 
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gearheadgrrrl

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This article gives some more details on the Supercharger network expansion and opening up to the other automakers:


And VW seems to finally have got the memo that they should be capitalizing on the Golf/GTI brand for their next gen EVs.
Like... What's with this "ID" thing?
 

Daemon64

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I want to build a pergola beside the pool and put the translucent panels on it. I might be able to get away with that. Not visible from the street or a neighbors, so probalby no one would ever notice or complain. I believe our utility limits systems with net metering to 10kW, so I could add about 4. That would make sure I am 100% covered, let me convert my dryer and range to electric from propane, and provide a buffer as the array I have now degrades. Given that I'm probably paying less than $250 annually for electricity now, it's hard to make a case for it, however.

I don't mind restrictive zoning. If you don't like the restrictions in a neighborhood or community, don't live there. I do agree, however, that some HOAs are a little crazy about it. My in-laws have a condo in a community that doesn't allow you to leave your car outside in your driveway overnight.
I believe last year they upped the residential cap from 10kw AC to 25kw AC. I'd check with your local codes, but I'm fairly certain there was a big todo about it as it was like a few months after I installed my system... which is 9.52kw AC... heh
 

Abacus

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Ok, tell that to the Peruvians where the potato is native . Then dig out Google maps and see where Peru is located in relation to the equator ;) .
LOL, I've been to Peru, and much of it is at a very high altitude so they get a lot of snow despite being closer to the equator, a clear apples and grapefruit comparison. Potatoes also only grow in the proper soil with the right conditions, which is why they don't grow well everywhere.



IndigoBlueWagon said:
I don't mind restrictive zoning. If you don't like the restrictions in a neighborhood or community, don't live there. I do agree, however, that some HOAs are a little crazy about it.
I mostly agree, although I am not on board with overly restrictive communities. When we moved to Arizona and looked for a house, a full 2/3rds were HOA's, which is a big thing out here. We didn't want anyone telling us what we could do with our house that WE paid for, so if they had an HOA they were automatically off the table. We do not regret that decision for one minute. I bought a workbench off someone selling their house in an HOA because they had a Tesla and the HOA would not let them install a 240v charger in their own garage!

There is always a way to get something done. My first job out of the Army was as in an Ortho-Litho photography studio, and the guy was a raging drunk but I've never forgotten something he told me. His house was on a pond and he wanted to build a fixed wooden dock with a gazebo on it. The town told him no, that it was against their shoreland ordinances. He asked about a floating dock and they again told him no. He built a floating dock with a gazebo on it and anchored it to shore anyway. When the town came over to inspect they told him he'd have to remove it or be fined, whereby he hauled out his boat registration and handed it to them. There was nothing they could do and went away mad. He got his gazebo on the pond for as long as he wanted it, just doing things differently.
 
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turbobrick240

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LOL, I've been to Peru, and much of it is at a very high altitude so they get a lot of snow despite being closer to the equator, a clear apples and grapefruit comparison. Potatoes also only grow in the proper soil with the right conditions, which is why they don't grow well everywhere.
Great! I hope you enjoyed your visit. I hear Machu Picchu is breathtaking. On my bucket list. I've been to Arizona so I know all about solar insolation. Which is much more intense in Peru than most places where the Irish Potato is grown. It wasn't super intense sunlight that caused the potato famine, I can assure you. Like the potato plant, solar panels perform best in bright light and moderate to coolish weather conditions.

Maine/New England may have less insolation than most states, but it's still far more than adequate to make PV installations incredibly profitable. Siting is important, however. It's best to avoid putting an array in heavy shade if possible. If not possible, the site may not make sense economically.

 

turbobrick240

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Where I live in central Maine the state had encouraged farmers to spread sewage and paper mill sludge on their hayfields for decades since the 80's. Turns out that sludge was typically heavily contaminated with the PFAS family of pollutants. Many thousands of acres of fields are so heavily contaminated that they can essentially never be used to grow food crops or forage again. Many private wells in those areas are also polluted beyond use. Deer meat should not be consumed in areas around contaminated fields. Anyhow, these heavily polluted fields are great candidates for solar installations. Might as well turn lemons into lemonade.
 

Zak99b5

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Paper mill sludge--I went to U Maine in the 80s, and I remember the first cloudy, rainy day with the wind just right, and the smell from the Old Town paper mill came wafting into the dorm. You kinda got used to it, but you'll never forget it.
 

turbobrick240

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Paper mill sludge--I went to U Maine in the 80s, and I remember the first cloudy, rainy day with the wind just right, and the smell from the Old Town paper mill came wafting into the dorm. You kinda got used to it, but you'll never forget it.
Yeah, I was there in the late 90's and that sulfide smell was oppressive at times. I lived off campus in Old Town for 3 years- closer to the mill. It was pretty bad, but I had no idea how toxic/persistent some of those mill waste products were at the time.
 

tikal

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Study showing replacing coal plants w/ SMRs and that it would be hugely beneficial

There is a ton of movement on nuclear in this country right now, a ton of money is going into it. Plants being built, plants in construction, plants starting construction, plants getting plans and licensing drawn up. Clearly a ton of power companies see it as a way to transition off of fossil and get baseloads taken care of... there are a ton more articles from many different states and organizations, this was just a QUICK look.
Thank you Daemon64!

I am curious for those who post in this thread and say, please be open minded (not cynic) about the fast, innovative rechargeable battery technology for EVs. Then why not also be open mined about new generation or generations of nuclear electrical power production on the way?

Logical or not? Besides solar/wind/geothermal/etc. we need a long term replacement for gas/coal power plants. "Unlike redundancy" for the future of electrical production in the world is a good thing and even better if you want to have a reliable electrical grid for your EVs.

Now certain country who prematurely shut down their nuclear electric power production has to transport natural gas using boats that pollute quite a bit. And I believe this country was also forced to re-start some of their coal plants but I am not sure about this.
 

turbobrick240

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Thank you Daemon64!

I am curious for those who post in this thread and say, please be open minded (not cynic) about the fast, innovative rechargeable battery technology for EVs. Then why not also be open mined about new generation or generations of nuclear electrical power production on the way?

Logical or not? Besides solar/wind/geothermal/etc. we need a long term replacement for gas/coal power plants. "Unlike redundancy" for the future of electrical production in the world is a good thing and even better if you want to have a reliable electrical grid for your EVs.

Now certain country who prematurely shut down their nuclear electric power production has to transport natural gas using boats that pollute quite a bit. And I believe this country was also forced to re-start some of their coal plants but I am not sure about this.
You can say Japan, tikal. Not hate speech :). I'm pretty sure the worst nuclear reactor meltdown since Chernobyl had something to do with that. Yes, they overreacted (pun intended), but Japan has a unique history in regards to nuclear disasters- so it's somewhat understandable. I think they are bringing many of those reactors sited in safe locations back into service. Fukushima was a terrible site location from the get go.
 

gulfcoastguy

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They tripled the height of the flood wall at Fukushima. I hope
That they also added elevated auxiliary power to operate the emergency shutdown procedure.
 

tikal

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We can learn from our past vs "throwing out the baby with the water ... "

There was more than one industrialized country which prematurely shut down their nuclear plants.
 

turbobrick240

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Yes, Germany also overreacted to the Fukushima disaster. Not to minimize the scale of that disaster. They also made themselves far too dependent on Russian gas for their energy needs. On the flip side, they are moving to renewables quickly and hopefully can wean themselves off of coal asap.
 

gulfcoastguy

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I actually know someone who was working at the Fukushima plant just before the incident. They were out of Japan during the tsunami. Unfortunately due to NDAs they couldn’t talk about it very much. Not that I would have understood anyway.
 

Abacus

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Where I live in central Maine the state had encouraged farmers to spread sewage and paper mill sludge on their hayfields for decades since the 80's. Turns out that sludge was typically heavily contaminated with the PFAS family of pollutants. Many thousands of acres of fields are so heavily contaminated that they can essentially never be used to grow food crops or forage again. Many private wells in those areas are also polluted beyond use. Deer meat should not be consumed in areas around contaminated fields. Anyhow, these heavily polluted fields are great candidates for solar installations. Might as well turn lemons into lemonade.
That's not entirely true. As someone who works in the field and has tested for PFAS contaminants in groundwater, as well as being the highest licensed professional in the state (two states actually, Maine and now Arizona), you have half the information. While it's true the state did advocate for sludge spreading on agriculture fields going back even before the 1980's, PFAS was not known as a contaminant until the late 1980's, when DuPont and 3M starting recognizing issues with people handling certain chemicals. Even then they dismissed it, and you can read about the lawsuit where they buried the information as long as they could. By the time regulators found out about it in the 1990's, they had no idea how mobile it was or how it would affect the ecosystem. While it's true wastewater plants were spreading PFAS on the land in the form of biosolids (treated and stabilized sludge), their wastewater plants were never designed to remove it, they didn't know about it, and nor were or are water treatment plants. Paper mills that used PFAS in their process were few and far between since they didn't produce products that required it, so to blame them all is a disservice.

It wasn't until the 2000's that regulators become interested when wells started becoming contaminated with the product, and here is why: they had no reliable way to measure into the part per trillion range nor did they know that had to test that low. A part per trillion is a very small number, a trillion seconds ago was 29,700 B.C. and if you lived a trillion seconds you'd be 31,709 years old. Once they/we knew about the dangers of PFAS, alternatives were developed, such as GenX, which was thought to do the same thing as PFAS but without the harmful contamination aspect. Yeah, not so much...a few years later they also found it's toxic to living organisms and the ecosystem...oops. But you know the thing about PFAS is that it was so good at what it did the EPA, FDA, congress, and even state legislatures didn't ban it outright. In fact, you can still buy PFAS laden items today, and odds are very good you probably have some on the shelf in the form of deodorants, shampoos, clothing, industrial tape, food packaging, and even cosmetics. Imagine putting on a fresh layer of PFAS every morning. But then again, if you don't know, is it an issue? It was particularly effective in the firefighting foam commonly used, and you know how much firefighters train. Now with more modern technology, the EPA set an interim health limit of 4 parts per quadrillion (ppqt), which is 1,000 times lower than a part per trillion. Truly a mind-blowingly small number (and quite frankly, one I stopped caring about). Here's an interesting tidbit, the health advisory level is 0.004 ppt, but current test methods can only test down to 1 ppt, so even at the method detection limit you may be exceeding the health advisory. When asked about this discrepancy, the answer was that they're hoping technology (to test) will catch up. Typical government...

Here are a few informative articles on PFAS, but keep in mind they're opinion pieces (as are virtually all press articles):
https://www.pressherald.com/2021/07/18/trail-of-forever-chemicals-leads-to-maine-paper-mills/
https://www.themainemonitor.org/a-spreading-problem-how-pfas-got-into-soils-and-food-systems/

The first link is about Nathan Saunders and his contaminated well. In typical press fashion, they fail to mention Nate was an engineer who worked for the Maine DEP that tested sludges to see if they were safe enough to put on the land! I worked with Nate on several projects and found him to be a nice guy with integrity but I have to wonder why the press left that little tidbit off the article. But anyway...

The part about the land not being usable again is not true. Collaborative efforts are underway through multiple agencies to do something called phytoremediation, which is using plants to uptake the contaminants from the soil and water. We used something similar for one of the Superfund hazardous waste projects I worked on in 1996. Once the contaminants are captured in the plants, they're harvested and disposed of in a controlled manner (safe). Part of the issue with PFAS is there is no easy destruction like other chemicals, which means you're just cycling it around in the ecosystem. To this day the EPA (I know because I've talked to them) has no disposal methods of PFAS contaminated filters or media. There is great hope to finding a solution and currently hemp looks like a clear frontrunner. Wells are also not polluted beyond use, PFAS can be removed by filtration using activated carbon from coconut shells, through ion exchange adsorption (like a water softener or arsenic system), or through reverse osmosis. Developing technologies are showing promise through other fields and I have a few technical papers on my desk at work about them.

The issue is so recent there are no hard and fast rules or limits, just interim ones. We're learning more every day and I am confident solutions are on the near horizon. The problem is this stuff has been around since 1938, and we didn't know it was harmful for half a century, so it's everywhere in everything. Weaning off it will take time and cleaning it up will take even longer. But for the amount the producers knew about it and when, they should absolutely have their feet held to the fire for cleanup efforts. So don't discount that land just yet...
 

turbobrick240

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That would be fantastic if phytoremediation can effectively bring those fields to safe levels. My guess is that process could take many decades. The PFAS has undoubtedly permeated very deeply into the subsoils and water table. And most polluted wells can be equipped with expensive carbon filtration systems and monitored. So far I believe the state has been picking up the tab for that.

A neighbors house about a mile down the road burned down last month, and at least one of the several VFDs that showed up was spraying foam. I really hope it wasn't full of PFAS or other PFs. I used to use Chinet paper plates fairly often when I bbq, but have stopped after learning they use a good amount of PFAS in the process. I never did use non-stick pans, something told me long ago that Teflon cookware can't be healthy. But yeah, the stuff is everywhere. I wasn't implying the state had any idea that the sludge they were pushing on farmers was toxic. I am super glad my father never took them up on the offer on the land I now farm. I worked on an organic farm in Pittston in my early twenties that had large piles of "bioash" from a paper mill that was probably loaded with PFAS. The owner was a very worldly guy who had farmed in Iran, Hawaii, and Florida- he would have been mortified to know that stuff was full of toxins(assuming it was). He was also a U.Maine grad (from the 50's) and there were always people from the University and state out there doing studies, giving advice and such. He trusted them when they said the stuff was safe and beneficial. Someone dropped the ball.
 

Abacus

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I don't think they dropped the ball so much as didn't know, and that can be translated into the current topic. What don't we know about EV's (or anything) that we will in 20 or 30 years? We're assuming they're safe and won't hurt the environment more than an ICE vehicle, but without the research and longevity, we just don't know. Look back through history and see all the times we didn't know something but thought it was a good idea at the time, from smoking, to antiviral shots (not talking about the recent shots, but older), smoking, water treatment, and even foods we buy. As time goes on we learn more and adjust, and this is no different. The only issue I have with PFAS is that the manufacturers knew and buried it for as long as they could, assumedly to protect profits while ignoring public health. But we still do the same thing today with landfills, which are just future hazardous waste dumps but we allow them because they're expedient.

I don't worry too much about the unknown though, there is no point. We can all start being Amish but what is the point? I'd rather live my life comfortably than worry about what might be at some point down the road, but that doesn't mean I'm not cognizant of what happens today to lead to that point.

And yes, phytoremediation takes time, it is a living system after all, but the chemicals were not put there overnight. The point is that the chemicals would be decreased rather than increasing, and if it takes time, at least it's in the right direction. The carbon is also not expensive, you can get them pretty easily and install them just like a regular filter. In the first article I posted you can see the black ion exchange tank Nate has installed in his basement. I have one for arsenic that is the same thing, just a different media. The issue comes when disposing of the spent media as there is currently no avenue to do so because destruction technology hasn't caught up yet.

So like EV's, this is in a state of evolution, and future failures and successes will dictate and direct its course. But it is for that reason I'm not on board with EV's just yet, I'll wait until they're a little more refined than they are today. I have no doubt they'll evolve with greater speed and get to a point more people will accept them, but forcing the issue isn't helping. I liken it to my Lasik, where I waited until the technology was refined enough that I didn't have to worry about side effects as much or problems with the procedure. And I'm gad I did wait after speaking with those who had it done early and now have lifelong issues with night driving.
 
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JETaah

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I just saw a blip on the TV news about what it takes to extinguish an EV car fire in comparison to conventional fossil fuel variety.
They are using smother-with-blanket technology over water extinguishment. Where it would take about 5000 gallons of water for gasoline cars they claim it would take ~30,000+ gallons of water for the EV and way more manpower and available hydrants to supply that amount.
One of many articles:
 
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turbobrick240

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The LFP chemistry batteries that the industry is adopting almost never catch fire. And the NMC chemistry batteries more widely used in this market today don't catch fire all that often, really. It just happens that every EV fire makes headlines. You don't hear much at all about the hundreds of internal combustion vehicles that catch fire every day. The blanket thing sounds like a good idea. According to data from the NTSB, on average, a gasoline powered car is 60 times more likely to catch fire than an EV.

.
 
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tikal

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Yes, Germany also overreacted to the Fukushima disaster. Not to minimize the scale of that disaster. They also made themselves far too dependent on Russian gas for their energy needs. On the flip side, they are moving to renewables quickly and hopefully can wean themselves off of coal asap.
They need to bring back some form of nuclear electrical power production for 'unlike redundancy' deserving of a very powerful industrialized country in the world.
 

turbobrick240

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Germany still has three operating nuclear plants, though they are scheduled to be decommissioned in April. Public opinion in Germany has shifted in favor of nuclear power recently, but I'm not sure if it will make a difference re the complete phase out of domestic nuclear power. They'll still get plenty from France, I'm sure.
 

turbobrick240

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This chart is a pretty astounding demonstration of the underestimation of solar energy deployment from the IEA and WEO. The last projection from the IEA in '21 has been met 20 years earlier than they projected two years ago!

UPDATED: Solar outlooks vs reality https://t.co/mnu0ZJyVQ3

 
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tikal

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El Dobro, I understand the 'explosive title' of the Youtube video on post #802 is not from you so, that's clear. No issues there.

Also, for the record, if some of us make points regarding various safety aspects of any EV battery storage technology, is not in any "wing" direction either ...
 

El Dobro

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Also, for the record, if some of us make points regarding various safety aspects of any EV battery storage technology, is not in any "wing" direction either ...
That didn't bother me and I happen to be a "right winger", with two EVs. ;)
 

Daemon64

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That didn't bother me and I happen to be a "right winger", with two EVs. ;)
"Right wing", "left wing".... doesn't matter, they're both wrong. People are not defined by A or B. Just how our crap system works. People are much more complex than that.
 

turbobrick240

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The Russian invasion of Ukraine has really accelerated Europe's transition to renewable energy sources. It's also caused a temporary uptick in coal usage, unfortunately. I think we'll see their coal usage start to go back into decline later this year. Apparently nothing cuts through beuracratic red tape like war and an energy crisis.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Saw this chart in a NYTimes article today, found it interesting:

The article describes EV emissions as follows: "Even though all-electric vehicles don’t burn gas or produce tailpipe emissions, they are indirectly responsible for emissions from vehicle and battery production, and the electricity used to charge them, which may come from fossil fuels."

I'm sure we could debate endlessly about the accuracy of the chart and how it might vary depending on EV production process and how its power is generated. But it is at least one measure of how EVs can compare to ICE in some circumstances.
 
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turbobrick240

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That's an interesting infographic, if a bit lacking in detail. Seems to show that like for like, based on vehicle size, the EVs produce between 1/2 and 1/3 the GHG emissions per mile. 35% for sedans in the study cited in this NYT article.

 
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gulfcoastguy

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We could also consider the energy used in refining oil, distribution of oil products, and obtaining oil. They also use electricity and diesel.
 
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