real world EVs review

gearheadgrrrl

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I think the automakers are just building whatever consumers are buying. The shrinking garage theory is interesting. First I've heard of it. Seems counter to what I see in my area.
Out here in rural Minnesota where I live they're building McMansions and oversized garages are the norm. But in the urban areas where most people live townhouses are the most common new homes and in the less common single family homes to the garages are getting downsized.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I like all the "compact only" parking spaces in garages in Boston. Amusing, because there aren't that many compact cars. People just squeeze into them.
 

Abacus

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trubobrick240 said:
I think the automakers are just building whatever consumers are buying.
Well, consumers tend to only buy what automakers supply, that’s how it works. Otherwise we’d have lots of decent options like they have in Europe and other countries. I think we get the chaff by comparison.

Automakers build, and convince consumers to buy, what makes them a profit. Their obligation is to show a return for their shareowners. At present they've managed to convince a lot of Americans that they need enormous all wheel drive vehicles. Or trucks.
Exactly right. After all, it’s not like the car companies poll the consumers and ask them what they want. They go by what sold in the past and try to make guesses on what they’ll buy in the future based on those metrics, all to make a profit (which there is nothing wrong with).
 

turbobrick240

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Well, consumers tend to only buy what automakers supply, that’s how it works. Otherwise we’d have lots of decent options like they have in Europe and other countries. I think we get the chaff by comparison.


Exactly right. After all, it’s not like the car companies poll the consumers and ask them what they want. They go by what sold in the past and try to make guesses on what they’ll buy in the future based on those metrics, all to make a profit (which there is nothing wrong with).
I'm sure it's a combination of consumer desires and manufacturer interests that drive model options/production. If gas prices were to spike up to $8+/gal, you can bet your bottom dollar that fuel guzzling SUVs and Trucks would fall out of favor pretty quickly. However profitable they had been up to that point.
 

gmenounos

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I think (and maybe heard this somewhere) that one reason manufacturers have been pushing SUVs is that they don't have to conform to as stringent fuel economy numbers as cars because SUVs are classified as light trucks.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Bingo. And I believe safety standards are different for some SUVs. Back to making money.
 

Zak99b5

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I own a big SUV. Ford Expedition Max. Before that, a GMT 800 and a GMT 900 Suburban. Before those a Vanagon, and before that a few Toyota Previas and a VanWagon. Vans got too small with all our stuff.

But we have 6 kids. Sure a few of them are adults now, but they still come with us on trips and such. So we actually need the room.

I just don’t understand when people have a second kid and immediately purchase a Suburban.

I'm an elementary teacher, and a few of us got a ride with a coworker one day. She had a big SUV, and remarked that her husband drove a compact. I asked her what it was, and she said it was a Honda CR-V. Lol.
 

tactdi

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North Carolina
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A MKIV VW is a REALLY small car by today's standards.
I was behind a 240 Volvo the other day, that was beside a modern car (don't remember what), and thought, that is a small car by today's standards, it was so narrow, when it was new, it was a size comparable to the cars of the day.
 

gmenounos

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Bolt Test Drives
On 10/16 a nearby town was hosting an EV test drive event where a bunch of dealers would be there with various EVs. You needed to sign up in advance and list your first and second choice vehicle. I chose an ID.4 and a Bolt EV. The ID.4 was too popular so I didn't get to drive it. The Chevy dealer was supposed to bring a Bolt EV and EUV, but they only brought the EUV so that's what we drove. We drove a 15-20 minute course with the guy from the dealer, my wife and my daughter. The car was fine, easy to drive and had good one pedal driving. But I really wanted to try out the EV. The EUV and EV are basically the same car with different body panels. The EUV is styled more like a small SUV and the EV is closer to a hatchback. The EUV is 6 inches longer but the interior is only 3 inches longer so there's a little bit more leg room in the back seat. For some weird reason, the EUV is listed as having a tiny bit smaller cargo room than the EV even though it's longer. Both are front wheel drive only. The EV has a 259 mile range and the EUV is 247. Both support DC fast charging when on a trip but only have a maximum charging rate of 55 kW, which is really slow for an EV in 2023.

On 10/24 I saw that a local dealer had a Bolt EV in stock. I called up and asked if we could test drive it and made an appointment for that night after work. It was on the other side of Boston from us so it took us about 45 minutes to get there as it was the tail end of rush hour and raining. When we got there, the dealer said they didn't have any record of our appointment and that the car I had asked about was already sold. They did have a similar Bolt EV available for a test drive so we took that our for 30 minutes. We liked it. Pretty much identical to the EUV on the inside. Good smallish peppy (like just about all EVs) hatchback.

This was all a month before be rented the ID.4 to try it out.

In early December, we were still trying to decide if the ID.4 was a lost cause and whether the Bolt would be better. The Bolt EV test drive was pretty short and was on a rainy night so we found one on Turo and rented it for a weekend in early December. It was a great practical city car: same length and width as the Golf so easy to park. The back seats fold flat (and easier than the Golf/Jetta as you don't need to remove the headrests). There's 3 more inches of legroom in the back seat. We drove down to Ikea about 40 minutes away, bought a double mattress and hauled it back home. The rear seats fold down 60/40 so there was room for our daughter in the smaller back seat with the larger half folder down and the mattress (which Ikea sells compressed and rolled up as a long tube) next to her. The Bolt drove well on the highway. It was a little bouncy on bumpy roads around town, and kind of ugly but definitely would work well for most of our needs other than longer trips.
 

gmenounos

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In December, I was still keeping the ID.4 reservation but it didn't seem to be getting any closer to being built. VW had initially predicted a delivery date of December but that got pushed back to January - June. I'd heard that Chattanooga was ramping up production, switching from 2 shifts/day to 3, but based on info being shared on the VWIDTalk forum, they were focusing on building the higher (and presumably more profitable) trims and drivetrains than the RWD Pro that I'd ordered. I had thought that placing an order earlier (mine was placed back in July) would have gotten you a car earlier, but that's not true at all. I think VW was having supply chain issues, too, so were not able to make the ID.4s as quickly as they'd been expecting. They removed some options from some of the trims, halted reservation of some trims and eventually announced in late December that Canadian models would no longer offer a heat pump option.

I'd been also watching the tax credit situation. I think I mentioned earlier that the 2023 ID.4 was eligible for the full $7500 tax credit if purchased by 12/31. The IRS was supposed to formalize the battery mineral requirements by 1/1, so the ID.4 would then only qualify for $3750 or possibly no credit.

The Bolt situation was a little different. GM had already manufactured more than 200k EVs so even though they're assembled in the US, they didn't qualify for the tax credit in 2022. GM had dropped the price of the Bolts by $6000 back in June to compensate for the loss of the credit. Under the new EV legislation signed in August, Bolts (and Teslas) would be eligible for the tax credit beginning on 1/1. I was afraid that GM would just increase the price a bunch to make up for the newly available credit so I placed an order for one in December. GM would guarantee the price based on MSRP the date that you ordered it and there was no deposit required to reserve and no obligation to buy when the car finally showed up a the dealer. But the dealer never contacted me after I placed the order. I emailed the sales guy about the order but never heard back from him until a month later. It can take quite a while to custom order a Bolt EV/EUV. Here's a really good overview of how the GM ordering/allocation process works:

Sometime in December, the IRS announced that they weren't going to finalize the battery mineral requirements by 12/31 and that they expected to complete that by March. So that gave a couple extra months to get a US-made EV with the full tax credit.

Around December 20, VW announced that all ID.4 orders not in manufacturing by January 5 would incur a $1500 price increase and that some RWD orders would be switched to a slower charging battery (maximum 135 kW charge rate instead of the 170 kW rate advertised when I ordered). The order was still showing as January-June, so after almost 6 months of waiting, $3000 of price increases and the possibility of an inferior battery, I decided I was done with VW, cancelled my order and got the $500 deposit back.
 

gmenounos

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Shortly before cancelling the ID.4, Tesla was trying to beef up their 2022 sales numbers so they offered $3750 off Model 3s and Model Ys delivered by 12/31. That matched what people at the time were thinking the January tax credit would be for Model 3s. The Ys were too expensive to qualify for any credit in January.

One of my coworkers had also placed an order for an AWD ID.4 and tried to order a Bolt EUV to see which would come in first. His family was down to one car but needed two, so he was in more of a hurry to buy than I was. He'd test driven a Model 3 and he liked it but thought it was too pricey. But I guess the end of year sale and the long wait for the ID.4 and Bolt pushed him over the edge and he bought a 2023 RWD Model 3 that happened to be in stock nearby.

A week later, Tesla increased the sales prices to $7500 off and then a couple of days later added free supercharging for the first 10k miles. My coworker offered to drive his Model 3 over to my house and see if would fit in the driveway and garage. It's a foot longer than the Jetta wagon so I cleared out 12 inches of junk from the back of the garage. He came over and was able to fit it in both the driveway and garage and even get in and out without having to climb through the window. :)
He was talking up the advantages of the LFP battery that was now being used in the RWD Model 3, which can be charged to 100% regularly and is supposed to have a much longer lifespan and doesn't contain cobalt and nickel. The Model 3 also has a heat pump to improve range in colder weather, which neither the ID.4 nor the Bolt has (I think the Leaf does).

I was already mentally prepared to spend over $40k (before credits) for an ID.4 so the reduced price of the Model 3 was not looking so bad compared with the price of the ID.4, which was $3k higher than it was back in July. I haven't had a car payment in 20+ years so I've been able to save a lot during that time. With neither the ID.4 nor the Bolt looking like they'd be manufactured for months and neither one being quite what we were looking for, I decided to put a $250 (nonrefundable) deposit on a RWD Model 3. It was initially predicted to be delivered by the end of the year but got pushed back to January 20-30. We had a month to think about it and could always cancel and eat the $250 if we changed our minds.

I'd never considered a Tesla before (never even ridden in one until late last year). They're expensive and a lot higher end than the cars that we've driven up to this point. And Elon Musk is a huge jerk.

But the ID.4 is an SUV and we really didn't want an SUV. The Bolt is ugly but great otherwise - except that longer road trips would require a lot of charging time. Here's ABRP's estimation of a road trip to Atlanta in the Bolt EV:

Bolt.png

That's about 2.5 hours of charging each 500-mile day with another 1.5 hour charge overnight in Richmond.

Now we're keeping the Golf, so we could certainly just use the Bolt for 90% of our driving and use the Golf for trips. But that would mean that all of our longer trips would be in a 25-year-old car. And when we take trips in the Golf or Jetta, even though I do a decent job of keeping them in good shape, I carry around some stress knowing that any vacation-ruining breakdown is going to be blamed on me.

Hanging out on the VWIDTalk forum, I've read about a lot of Electrify America charging issues. People aren't getting the charging speeds that they should and a lot of chargers are broken. I had similar issues charging the ID.4 at the Kennebunk ChargePoint on Thanksgiving. 3 of the 4 chargers were broken and I got 50 kW charging speed at the 4th and it took 41 minutes to add 31.25 kWh. The Tesla high speed charging network is a lot more built out than EA right now and they do a better job of maintaining their chargers. If you use the car's built in navigation to get to the next charger, it will make sure that the battery is heated to the right temperature for the fastest charging when you arrive. There's a Tesla service center about a mile from my house, which is a plus.

On January 13, Tesla dropped the Model 3 prices between $3000 and $10000 depending on the drivetrain and options. The AWD long range (supposedly 358 miles) models now were cheap enough to qualify for the federal tax credit so I ended up cancelling my order and ordering one of those that was already locally available. I picked it up 5 days later.

I don't have much driving and charging info to report yet. My daughter brough Covid home from school a couple weeks ago and then my wife caught it and was still testing positive until 10 days later, so we didn't get to drive it anywhere together until yesterday. Yesterday it was 72% charged and we drove it out to this bookstore ("Books you don't need in a place you can't find") about 82 miles away and returned home with I think 24% charge. It drove great, handled great, no range worries, way more acceleration than anyone needs. Electronics takes some getting used to. It's really weird driving at night, looking through the steering wheel and wondering why all the lighting has failed on your instrument cluster and then remembering that there just isn't one. Haven't installed a home charger yet but my wife can charge at work so no hurry.

Looking forward to some longer trips. I'm headed out to Utica, NY for a weekend in early March. That's about 250 miles away so it'll be a good chance to see how well the charging network works.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I feel like you were holding out on us, or I missed a post where you said you bought a Model 3. I thought you were holding out for a hatch/wagon, so didn't think that was on the radar. Glad you got things settled.h

I love the Book Mill. My son lived across the river from it for 4 years while he was at UMass Amherst. I've spent a lot of time at Lady Killigrew.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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Nice, you got an AWD Model 3. Those things are rocket ships. Wire yourself up a 50 amp 240V circuit in your basement garage when you get a chance. Really a must have.
 

gmenounos

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Yeah, I was holding out, but I thought it might be useful to people to hear about the Bolt and ID.4 and the process of trying to buy them. Also, Turo is a good way to rent some car for a few days that you're considering, so people should be aware of that. The Model 3 was literally not on my radar last July. Buying a car wasn't really on my radar either. It took a while to accept that owning only MK4 TDIs in 2023 wasn't working for us. My wife went back to school (Antioch College in Keene, NH about 80 miles away) 3 years ago. She only needed to be there Thursday and Friday each week so she'd drive up there early on Thursday and come back late Friday night. She hinted at the time that we might need to get a more reliable car. I managed to keep the wagon in good running condition (including an early timing belt replacement in our unheated garage in the middle of winter) for the year and a half that she was commuting there, but it woke me up to the fact that I just didn't have the time nor the energy to deal with two older cars at the same time.

We'll still have the Golf for hauling things. I looked around at the various EV hatchback options and none of them were quite right:
  • ID.4 - SUV
  • Bolt - Charges too slow for longer trips
  • Leaf - High speed charging uses Japanese CHAdeMO connector instead of North American CCS connector
  • Polestar 2 - Not eligible for federal tax credit
  • Ioniq 5 - I think it looks cool but it's an SUV and also not eligible for the tax credit
  • Hyundai Kona - SUV, charges 50% faster than the Bolt but still a little too slow for road trips
  • Mach-E - SUVish and long delivery time (currently 30-35 weeks)
The Model 3 ended up being the EV that you can mostly just treat like a regular car. Get in and go. Don't stress over range or where you're going to find a charger and whether it'll work when you get to it. But it costs a lot more than the Bolt. If the Golf were to get die tomorrow, I'd definitely get the Bolt as a second car. I'm sure in a couple of years there will be a lot more options and the charging networks will be a lot better.
 

gmenounos

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Here are the supposed charging stops estimated by ABRP for a Boston to Atlanta trip in a 2023 LR AWD Model 3. It sounds reasonable to me even in a non-EV: 15-20 minutes every 2-3 hours. (But I haven't done this drive yet so I don't know how close the estimate compares to reality).

Model 3.png
 

tikal

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Southeast Texas
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Yeah, I was holding out, but I thought it might be useful to people to hear about the Bolt and ID.4 and the process of trying to buy them. Also, Turo is a good way to rent some car for a few days that you're considering, so people should be aware of that. The Model 3 was literally not on my radar last July. Buying a car wasn't really on my radar either. It took a while to accept that owning only MK4 TDIs in 2023 wasn't working for us. My wife went back to school (Antioch College in Keene, NH about 80 miles away) 3 years ago. She only needed to be there Thursday and Friday each week so she'd drive up there early on Thursday and come back late Friday night. She hinted at the time that we might need to get a more reliable car. I managed to keep the wagon in good running condition (including an early timing belt replacement in our unheated garage in the middle of winter) for the year and a half that she was commuting there, but it woke me up to the fact that I just didn't have the time nor the energy to deal with two older cars at the same time.

We'll still have the Golf for hauling things. I looked around at the various EV hatchback options and none of them were quite right:
  • ID.4 - SUV
  • Bolt - Charges too slow for longer trips
  • Leaf - High speed charging uses Japanese CHAdeMO connector instead of North American CCS connector
  • Polestar 2 - Not eligible for federal tax credit
  • Ioniq 5 - I think it looks cool but it's an SUV and also not eligible for the tax credit
  • Hyundai Kona - SUV, charges 50% faster than the Bolt but still a little too slow for road trips
  • Mach-E - SUVish and long delivery time (currently 30-35 weeks)
The Model 3 ended up being the EV that you can mostly just treat like a regular car. Get in and go. Don't stress over range or where you're going to find a charger and whether it'll work when you get to it. But it costs a lot more than the Bolt. If the Golf were to get die tomorrow, I'd definitely get the Bolt as a second car. I'm sure in a couple of years there will be a lot more options and the charging networks will be a lot better.
Thanks for taking the time to write up all your experience and outcome(s) in such detail!

Even at the anecdotal level, it shows that non-Tesla EVs are not at prime time for average road trips American families like to take.

And, so far, our "crystal ball", is not giving us any re-assuring messages that the next few years will be any different in North America.
 

Lug_Nut

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Sterling, MA. USA
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I can't add any thing to this thread that hasn't already been dissected and hashed and filtered repeatedly, with one group picking out the filter debris collection to say "You're wrong! See?!" and another looking at what passed through and saying "No, you're wrong! See?!".
I'm going to make some popcorn.
 

Daemon64

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I can't add any thing to this thread that hasn't already been dissected and hashed and filtered repeatedly, with one group picking out the filter debris collection to say "You're wrong! See?!" and another looking at what passed through and saying "No, you're wrong! See?!".
I'm going to make some popcorn.
I'm just waiting to add more data points at this time. But havent done any real driving lately... sometimes it be like that. But the EA situation is NOT tenable in the least. Especially given that Kyle Connor is reporting that the Gen 4 EA hardware / software cannot handle freezing / below freezing temps w/o literally not working across the state... thats bad news as that stuff hasn't even rolled out most places... If Tesla does a rollout and its slow while it will help in some areas its obviously nothing in other so thats another wait and see. At this moment in time the CCS long distance network is a trainwreck and travel at your own peril. Warmer weather will likely resolve a bunch of issues temporarily until it gets cold again.
 

turbobrick240

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We'll see. Cellular networks got built out pretty quickly when the cell phone adoption curve took off.
Satellite broadband is getting built out at breakneck speed. I just looked at an EV chargepoint map for my state, and was amazed at how many there are within 25 miles that I had no idea existed. The bugs will get worked out. There already exists a model of how to do it right.
 

gmenounos

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This is interesting:
I think I forgot to explain that. Near the end of December, VW in addition to raising the ID.4 price $1500 for vehicles not in production by 1/5, announced that they'd be shutting down the online reservation portal because they were anticipating adequate stock at local dealers.

Here's some discussion about the cluster____ that was the ID.4 reservation/production/delivery process:
https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/delivery-date-just-slipped-from-february-to-may-june.10235/
 

Daemon64

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I think I forgot to explain that. Near the end of December, VW in addition to raising the ID.4 price $1500 for vehicles not in production by 1/5, announced that they'd be shutting down the online reservation portal because they were anticipating adequate stock at local dealers.

Here's some discussion about the cluster____ that was the ID.4 reservation/production/delivery process:
https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/delivery-date-just-slipped-from-february-to-may-june.10235/
I feel that. Before getting the P2 -- I had an ID4. AWD Pro S Gradient in kings red on pre-order for 9 mo locked w/o any movement before I say the P2 and went, well this will work. I mean if they had given "ok its been reserved for 9 mo, we are starting production, or we have you planned for production, or literally ANYTHING, I might have waited a few more months.... but like thats a long time to wait with literally no info...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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We'll see. Cellular networks got built out pretty quickly when the cell phone adoption curve took off.
This made me laugh. I think the US probably has the worst cell phone coverage of any developed nation. I remember traveling to Europe in the very early 2000s and my clients were using their phones as modems, for navigation, and banking. I still can't reliably make a telephone call from my house in suburban Boston without celluar WiFi working. If we're using cell coverage as a benchmark for EV charging, EV owners are in big trouble.
 

turbobrick240

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This made me laugh. I think the US probably has the worst cell phone coverage of any developed nation. I remember traveling to Europe in the very early 2000s and my clients were using their phones as modems, for navigation, and banking. I still can't reliably make a telephone call from my house in suburban Boston without celluar WiFi working. If we're using cell coverage as a benchmark for EV charging, EV owners are in big trouble.
Yeah, it's so bad around here that almost everyone tossed their smart phones and went back to dial up. Just kidding. I actually have pretty spotty coverage from inside my house frequently, but quite decent if I hop in my car and park 100 yards away in one of my fields. Go figure.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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Cell network buildout has been slow in rural areas because the unregulated industry of only 3 providers can "cherry pick" the high profit urban locations and ignore the rest. Same thing is happening with EV charging out here in rural Minnesota- There's a few government subsidized Tesla chargers and a couple open chargers put in by Muni power systems. The costs are so high and the payback so slow that EVs won't be practical out here for decades.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Here are the supposed charging stops estimated by ABRP for a Boston to Atlanta trip in a 2023 LR AWD Model 3. It sounds reasonable to me even in a non-EV: 15-20 minutes every 2-3 hours. (But I haven't done this drive yet so I don't know how close the estimate compares to reality).

View attachment 129066
I spoke to a co-worker about Superchargers on Route 95 this morning, and he said that there are typically two chargers at each service area on the NJ Turnpike, and that they're frequently occupied, often with people waiting. So depending on when you're traveling, the amount of time you need to charge may be quite a bit longer than the actually charging time needed. Choosing off peak times to travel may be a good idea.
 

turbobrick240

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Cell coverage in my area is abysmal, and I cannot even get broadband internet at my house.
You could get Starlink satellite broadband.

I spoke to a co-worker about Superchargers on Route 95 this morning, and he said that there are typically two chargers at each service area on the NJ Turnpike, and that they're frequently occupied, often with people waiting. So depending on when you're traveling, the amount of time you need to charge may be quite a bit longer than the actually charging time needed. Choosing off peak times to travel may be a good idea.
Travelling along the Eastern seaboard in a Tesla is totally painless. NJ has over 50 supercharger sites, almost all of which have between 8-20 stalls. Look at a Supercharger location map, all of the main travel corridors in the lower 48 are well covered.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
Moved here in 2010 and the town was already a telecom hub, what with "Baby Bell" and MCI fiber meeting here we already had 3 "huts" full of telecom equipment here... But none of the city council thought of demanding local access in return for giving them permits. Legacy phone local exchange provider's failing system couldn't even handle DSL and cable companies don't bother with towns this small. Local library got slow broadband thanks to the Microsoft antitrust settlement so I used that for web access and a cell modem for e-mail. At one time we had all 4 cell providers on the local tower after AT&T joined Sprint, T, and Verizon there, but I was T-Mobile's last user when they refused to allow my new phone on their system so they could get off the tower and save on rent. Finally got broadband 3 years ago when another local telco sucked up the state and fed subsidies and got up on the tower, was a godsend during the pandemic. I've got line of site to the tower, but didn't work for some of my neighbors so they finally put in fiber before the ground froze last year, but the actual hook ups to the homes are just now being made.

So over a decade to get in broadband where the investments are around a couple thousand dollars a user. I've priced an EV charger and they're well into six figures with not a single user in miles, and I haven't even priced in a 20+ mile power line upgrade to the substation... We'll be lucky to get EV chargers here this decade, and maybe not even this century.
 
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