real world EVs review
- Thread starter Daemon64
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P2B
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El Dobro
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gearheadgrrrl
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I'm looking For an EV with GTI performance, the upcoming Bolt will have trouble keeping up with TDIs!
x1800MODMY360x
Veteran Member
I see a push in REEV, Range Extended Eletric Vehicle but all of them utilizing a gasoline engine and no diesel.
There was one model that didn't have plug in charging and solely rely on the engine to charge the batteries
kind of stupid.
There was one model that didn't have plug in charging and solely rely on the engine to charge the batteries
kind of stupid.DPM
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not so stupid. Just like Toyota with their hybrids, using the engine as a generator allows it to be run in the most efficient regiemes which massively improves tailpipe emissions and allows those emissions to be moved away from congested areas
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
All Toyota hybrids mechanically link the engine to the drive wheels (at least one axle's worth, on AWD models), because the most efficient way to run and engine is to do just that. It makes zero sense to have an engine spinning and a few cm away from it have the M/G spinning to drive the wheels.
The reason diesel/electric locomotives do this isn't because of "efficiency", it's because there isn't a transmission on the planet that would not be as big or bigger than the prime mover itself that could provide enough gearing to make an engine that only has a ~1200 RPM total operational range to get 11ty million tons of steel moving through a handful of tiny steel-on-steel contact patches from a dead stop yet still be able to move the train at high speeds. You'd need a 100-speed transmission! Cars don't have that issue.
(Toyota Hybrid School graduate speaking
)
The reason diesel/electric locomotives do this isn't because of "efficiency", it's because there isn't a transmission on the planet that would not be as big or bigger than the prime mover itself that could provide enough gearing to make an engine that only has a ~1200 RPM total operational range to get 11ty million tons of steel moving through a handful of tiny steel-on-steel contact patches from a dead stop yet still be able to move the train at high speeds. You'd need a 100-speed transmission! Cars don't have that issue.
(Toyota Hybrid School graduate speaking
)
x1800MODMY360x
Veteran Member
I meant the one car only have the engine generator as the sole charging option for the REEV and could not be plugged in to charge the battery.
REEV or Series Hybrid have only electric motors and is powered by the batteries. But have an on board generator to charge the battery pack on the car.
Nothing like the 99% hybrids out on the market that is parallel drive.
El Dobro
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In what manner?
gearheadgrrrl
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GM tried to fool the press into believing that the original Bolt could keep up with the then current Golf7 GTI, but the Bolt was too heavy with too slow a throttle response to keep up with the GTI. Now the GTI is up to the 8.5 generation and faster while the new Bolt even heavier, so it ain't even a race.
DPM
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yep. But explain the power split device a bit farther please- over what speed range is the engine "coupled to the wheels" and what is MG1 doing at this time? Or put it another way- if MG1 is disabled (but free to spin) how much engine torque can be transferred?
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
All of the engine torque can be transferred. As well as all of the battery supply via the 'M' portion of the MG(s).... until the battery is depleted. But, as is inherent with 4-cycle engines that are running in the Atkinson mimic mode, those engine are relatively low on torque. But with the electric motor, this is not an issue. And Toyota's clever modern spin on the Ford Model T transmission (literally, an all-planetary CVT!), it is a relatively seamless and durable setup. They just suck to drive. Exciting as a microwave oven. But, most people are not "car people", so it works for them. They also don't keep a car they purchased new for all that long, so the specter of uber-expensive hybrid-related repairs isn't going to be an issue, nor the nasty habit of engines wearing out like so many modern Toyota engines in hybrids do.
El Dobro
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Do you have any links as to where GM tried to fool the press? The only things I've found for the Bolt were emphasis on economy and safety, nothing on performance. As for the new Bolt being heavier, there are no specs that are published yet. I've also owned a PD TDI and a CR TDI. I'll stick with the Bolts.
DPM
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this is where I'm looking for guidance. For engine torque to be transferred through the PSD doesn't MG1 have to be active/ either braked or running at a different speed to the engine? Hence my original Q- surely electrical power is *required* on some level to allow engine power to pass the PSD? Or is there e.g. a freewheel in it that forces transfer...
But yes, it's a very clever system. My Rav4 is the quickest car I've ever had yet trounces previous diesels round town for economy, and nearly matches them on the highway. SWMBO's Corolla is repeatably more economical than the fuel sipping C4 was and the extra 40hp sure makes it more interesting.
I may come from the continent of manual transmissions, but neither "suck" to drive...
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
They have a DMF that transfers power to the transmission, and instead of the leather belt* that the Model T transmission used, they have a big stator ring that spins against an electromagnet that is energized to produce a lower ratio, with a big clutch that links it directly to the DMF, which is of course bolted directly to the engine. There are two motor/generators in the transaxle, MG1 and MG2. The rear unit on AWD models is called MGR, and it IS electric only... which makes sense, since in most cases that most people would ever see, the "AWD" need only be an occasional assist. It isn't like you're running a rally or need/want the ass end to drift out from behind you.
*the T transmission had two speeds, High and Low. Pressing the clutch pedal all the way down disengaged the engine from the transmission. Lifting it part way up engaged Low gear, and releasing it fully engaged High gear. But the "CVT" part is that, in theory, and actuality but not practicality, you can slip the belt anywhere between this Low and High point and vary the amount the planetary gearset spins in the transmission. Well, a Toyota hybrid does essentially the same thing, except they use the fluid-submerged electromagnet/stator to vary the torque applied to the planetary to make the variable ratio. And this can be done over and over, at any time, at any amount. Unlike a belt that would give up in short order. Downside is, over time, the ATF (which is NOT a CVT type, they use the same Type WS as other Toyota Aisin transmissions) gets a lot of wear metals that are then stuck to the magnet inside, with no way to get them out, and so this transfer can suffer some. Also, Toyota makes zero provisions to service the transmissions in the transverse hybrid cars, aside from fluid changes. They don't sell parts. There is no service lit for taking them apart. And they also have coolant going through the MG1/2 area, and sometimes the big o-ring leaks and coolant comes out the bellhouse. In theory, you could replace this o-ring BUT it is loaded from the INSIDE, meaning the ENTIRE transaxle would need to be disassembled... but, again, no parts are sold, and no service lit is available.
So, keep the ATF and coolant changed... that'll help!
*the T transmission had two speeds, High and Low. Pressing the clutch pedal all the way down disengaged the engine from the transmission. Lifting it part way up engaged Low gear, and releasing it fully engaged High gear. But the "CVT" part is that, in theory, and actuality but not practicality, you can slip the belt anywhere between this Low and High point and vary the amount the planetary gearset spins in the transmission. Well, a Toyota hybrid does essentially the same thing, except they use the fluid-submerged electromagnet/stator to vary the torque applied to the planetary to make the variable ratio. And this can be done over and over, at any time, at any amount. Unlike a belt that would give up in short order. Downside is, over time, the ATF (which is NOT a CVT type, they use the same Type WS as other Toyota Aisin transmissions) gets a lot of wear metals that are then stuck to the magnet inside, with no way to get them out, and so this transfer can suffer some. Also, Toyota makes zero provisions to service the transmissions in the transverse hybrid cars, aside from fluid changes. They don't sell parts. There is no service lit for taking them apart. And they also have coolant going through the MG1/2 area, and sometimes the big o-ring leaks and coolant comes out the bellhouse. In theory, you could replace this o-ring BUT it is loaded from the INSIDE, meaning the ENTIRE transaxle would need to be disassembled... but, again, no parts are sold, and no service lit is available.
So, keep the ATF and coolant changed... that'll help!
325_Guy
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gearheadgrrrl
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At an intro event for the original Bolt GM set up an autocross course for the media to play and inferred that the Bolt was a GTI competitor.
El Dobro
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Never officially backed by corporate, so it doesn't count.
hskrdu
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Got stuck waiting for an appointment, so I watched the Bolt video. I've only been in a Bolt as a passenger, and two of those of trip were via Uber. As a non-driver the Bolt seemed like a small, cheap, plasticky city car for people who don't really enjoy spirited driving, or who wanted a second/third car for specific/narrow EV duties. I didn't like the Bolt, and it wouldn't be something I'd consider buying, just so I'm clear in my bias. Some observations:
Is this guy a shill? Serious question. Many of the items he is excited about would fall on my "dislike" list, but obviously I'm not their intended market.
"I could never figure what state of charge I was at when I was driving my car." There was just no SOC indicator in the (previous Bolt) dash. But guess what, in the new version, there is." Should I get excited that a new Bolt has an obvious "fuel gauge"?
"I think that this, that GM and Chevy, they've really hit the ball out of the park with this car and I think they are gonna sell a ton of them." "I think they're gonna sell a heck of a lot of these things." That seems confusing when GM already announced that the Bolt will be a "limited run" production.
"$29,995 including destination....
"I thought the RS was the $29,995 model? "
(reply) "No, the $29,990 model is our LT with the comfort package."
(The RS with all options will be "under $40 grand").
"I got it all wrong guys, I'm sorry."
"One thing about this Bolt for the price point is, it actually comes with a charging cable." Do EV owners get excited over this?
"Let's talk about the range on this car. It was really funny, when they gave the presentation the nice young lady, she said the range was 355. It was actually 255." She might have been nice, but accuracy would have been better at a product launch.
"Hey Google, take me to the Motown museum." (waiting....waiting...waiting). Two minutes later...
"10 to 80%....26 minutes." Why is he so excited over this?
"Everything I've heard, I'm impressed." So, the video spans several hours of the day, and his glowing review seems based on numbers, driver-interference technology, and his own excitement. Can you give a glowing review of a new car without driving the car? I guess so.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
The Bolt never really impressed me, either. If it were not for the awful CVT they finished the run with, the Spark would have been my choice for half the price. I think the Spark actually felt more substantial to drive, to be honest (and they don't have that annoying 90 mph speed limiter). Maybe the new Bolt will be better. The second generation of the Leaf is certainly better, and the second generation of the Volt was certainly better.
I still think they are absurdly expensive... but a lot of stuff seems like that. And I'm sure my 2000 Golf would be considered crazy expensive, too, it was probably around $19k MSRP (4dr GLS w/o lux TDI+man). But here it is 25 years and 630k miles later still working just fine. And it doesn't feel like a cheap plastic city car to me (and it certainly can go faster than 90, LOL).
I still think they are absurdly expensive... but a lot of stuff seems like that. And I'm sure my 2000 Golf would be considered crazy expensive, too, it was probably around $19k MSRP (4dr GLS w/o lux TDI+man). But here it is 25 years and 630k miles later still working just fine. And it doesn't feel like a cheap plastic city car to me (and it certainly can go faster than 90, LOL).
P2B
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Paywall
tikal
Veteran Member
Interesting enough I was able to view it in its entirety without a subscription and with my Fennec browser (Android OS).
tikal
Veteran Member
Ford Motor
executives are in active discussions about scrapping the electric version of its F-150 pickup, according to people familiar with the matter, which would make the money-losing truck America’s first major EV casualty.
The Lightning, once described by Ford as a modern Model T for its importance to the company, fell far short of expectations as American truck buyers skipped the electric version of the top-selling truck. Ford has racked up $13 billion in EV losses since 2023.
Overall EV sales, already falling short of expectations, are expected to plummet in the absence of government support. And big, electric pickups and SUVs are the most vulnerable.
“The demand is just not there” for F-150 Lightning and other full-size trucks, said Adam Kraushaar, owner of Lester Glenn Auto Group in New Jersey. He sells Ford, GMC, Chevy and other brands. “We don’t order a lot of them because we don’t sell them.”
No final decision has yet been made, according to people familiar with the discussions, but such a move by Ford could be the beginning of the end for big EV trucks.
Ram truck-maker Stellantis earlier this year called off plans to make an electric version of its full-size pickup. General Motors executives have discussed discontinuing some electric trucks, according to people familiar with the matter. Sales of Tesla’s angular, stainless steel Cybertruck pickup tanked this year. And EV truck-maker Rivian has been cutting jobs to conserve cash.
A turn away from electric full-size trucks would align with Ford CEO Jim Farley’s more recent comments about the market: that EVs are great for commuting and other local driving, while hefty trucks will continue to need hybrid or all-gasoline powertrains.
Ford already paused production of its F-150 Lightning—the bestselling electric pickup in the U.S.—last month amid an aluminum shortage. The company is weighing whether to keep that plant idle as it shifts to smaller, more affordable EVs, the people say. The company said it would restart production “at the right time.”
A Ford F-150 Lightning EV vehicle Kyle Grillot/Bloomberg News
In October, the first month since the end of the federal EV tax credit, Ford’s overall EV sales in the U.S. fell 24% from a year earlier. Ford dealers sold 66,000 gas-powered F-Series pickups, up a tick from a year earlier, and just 1,500 Lightnings, the fewest of any model.
Electric versions of the industry’s beefiest SUVs and pickups are stark embodiments of America’s EV reckoning. The trucks seemed a good bet amid booming EV demand and clean-air mandates that required automakers to sell fewer gas-guzzlers. That is no longer true as EV demand cools, while sales-boosting incentives and government regulations fall away.
Pulling back from producing these vehicles will cause pain through the automakers—and their suppliers. Already some plants have stopped production and put thousands of workers on unemployment lines. Ford rival GM set aside $1.6 billion in the third quarter to account for losses and said more charges will come in the future.
Electric trucks, with their hefty price tags and 1-ton batteries, were supposed to be Detroit’s answer to Tesla. Ford and GM thought their best shot was to enter with electric versions of their bestselling, most-profitable vehicles. Not only would the trucks have a built-in fan base, they also would address the EV profitability conundrum by commanding higher prices than a sedan or small SUV.
When Ford’s Farley launched the Lightning five years ago he promised a pickup as fast as a sports car and as affordable as a conventional truck. It would drive hundreds of miles on a single charge, and carry enough voltage to power a home for days.
“It’s like a smartphone that can tow 10,000 pounds,” Farley said at a celebration to launch the vehicle.
Demand was high in the truck’s early days as EV enthusiasts marveled over its zippy handling and futuristic design. Then-President Joe Biden drove one in 2021 and gushed, “This sucker’s quick!”
Mainstream truck buyers historically loyal to GM and Ford weren’t sold.
They balked at the price. Ford initially said the trucks would start around $40,000. But basic models went for closer to $50,000, and higher-end versions approached $90,000.
The Ford Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn, Mich. Andia/Universal Images Group/Getty Images
Truck buyers worried the pickups would run out of juice in the middle of a job or a long haul. The trucks’ range on a single charge is dramatically reduced when towing big loads or operating in cold weather.
That has spelled massive losses for Ford and GM.
GM has also lost billions on electric trucks after rolling out a string of them in recent years, including an electric version of the F-150’s rival, the Chevrolet Silverado. The company has three electric pickups, and it sold about 1,800 of them last month, according to Motor Intelligence.
The company last month said it would idle the Detroit factory that makes those trucks until Nov. 24.
GM executives have discussed whether to cull some of those trucks from its lineup, according to people familiar with the matter. The company last month stopped making an electric cargo van, the Chevrolet BrightDrop.
A GM spokesman said the automaker has no current plans to further change its product lineup or overall direction. The company is making progress in reducing the cost of making the trucks, he said.
Ford’s Farley has conceded that, when it comes to EVs, Americans want smaller, affordable models like those sold by Chinese automakers in markets outside the U.S., and not big, pricey trucks. The company is now racing to build a compact $30,000 EV pickup.
Ford built up the capacity to make as many as 150,000 Lightnings a year.
EVs cost billions to develop and manufacture, and can only be profitable if they sell in large enough volumes to cover the cost of building them, said Lenny LaRocca, who leads consulting firm KPMG’s auto sector. And nothing suggests robust sales in the near future.
“The volumes are not hitting where people would have expected when they made these investments,” he said.
Write to Sharon Terlep at sharon.terlep@wsj.com
executives are in active discussions about scrapping the electric version of its F-150 pickup, according to people familiar with the matter, which would make the money-losing truck America’s first major EV casualty.
The Lightning, once described by Ford as a modern Model T for its importance to the company, fell far short of expectations as American truck buyers skipped the electric version of the top-selling truck. Ford has racked up $13 billion in EV losses since 2023.
Overall EV sales, already falling short of expectations, are expected to plummet in the absence of government support. And big, electric pickups and SUVs are the most vulnerable.
“The demand is just not there” for F-150 Lightning and other full-size trucks, said Adam Kraushaar, owner of Lester Glenn Auto Group in New Jersey. He sells Ford, GMC, Chevy and other brands. “We don’t order a lot of them because we don’t sell them.”
No final decision has yet been made, according to people familiar with the discussions, but such a move by Ford could be the beginning of the end for big EV trucks.
Ram truck-maker Stellantis earlier this year called off plans to make an electric version of its full-size pickup. General Motors executives have discussed discontinuing some electric trucks, according to people familiar with the matter. Sales of Tesla’s angular, stainless steel Cybertruck pickup tanked this year. And EV truck-maker Rivian has been cutting jobs to conserve cash.
A turn away from electric full-size trucks would align with Ford CEO Jim Farley’s more recent comments about the market: that EVs are great for commuting and other local driving, while hefty trucks will continue to need hybrid or all-gasoline powertrains.
Ford already paused production of its F-150 Lightning—the bestselling electric pickup in the U.S.—last month amid an aluminum shortage. The company is weighing whether to keep that plant idle as it shifts to smaller, more affordable EVs, the people say. The company said it would restart production “at the right time.”
A Ford F-150 Lightning EV vehicle Kyle Grillot/Bloomberg News
In October, the first month since the end of the federal EV tax credit, Ford’s overall EV sales in the U.S. fell 24% from a year earlier. Ford dealers sold 66,000 gas-powered F-Series pickups, up a tick from a year earlier, and just 1,500 Lightnings, the fewest of any model.
Electric versions of the industry’s beefiest SUVs and pickups are stark embodiments of America’s EV reckoning. The trucks seemed a good bet amid booming EV demand and clean-air mandates that required automakers to sell fewer gas-guzzlers. That is no longer true as EV demand cools, while sales-boosting incentives and government regulations fall away.
Pulling back from producing these vehicles will cause pain through the automakers—and their suppliers. Already some plants have stopped production and put thousands of workers on unemployment lines. Ford rival GM set aside $1.6 billion in the third quarter to account for losses and said more charges will come in the future.
Electric trucks, with their hefty price tags and 1-ton batteries, were supposed to be Detroit’s answer to Tesla. Ford and GM thought their best shot was to enter with electric versions of their bestselling, most-profitable vehicles. Not only would the trucks have a built-in fan base, they also would address the EV profitability conundrum by commanding higher prices than a sedan or small SUV.
When Ford’s Farley launched the Lightning five years ago he promised a pickup as fast as a sports car and as affordable as a conventional truck. It would drive hundreds of miles on a single charge, and carry enough voltage to power a home for days.
“It’s like a smartphone that can tow 10,000 pounds,” Farley said at a celebration to launch the vehicle.
Demand was high in the truck’s early days as EV enthusiasts marveled over its zippy handling and futuristic design. Then-President Joe Biden drove one in 2021 and gushed, “This sucker’s quick!”
Mainstream truck buyers historically loyal to GM and Ford weren’t sold.
They balked at the price. Ford initially said the trucks would start around $40,000. But basic models went for closer to $50,000, and higher-end versions approached $90,000.
The Ford Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn, Mich. Andia/Universal Images Group/Getty Images
Truck buyers worried the pickups would run out of juice in the middle of a job or a long haul. The trucks’ range on a single charge is dramatically reduced when towing big loads or operating in cold weather.
That has spelled massive losses for Ford and GM.
GM has also lost billions on electric trucks after rolling out a string of them in recent years, including an electric version of the F-150’s rival, the Chevrolet Silverado. The company has three electric pickups, and it sold about 1,800 of them last month, according to Motor Intelligence.
The company last month said it would idle the Detroit factory that makes those trucks until Nov. 24.
GM executives have discussed whether to cull some of those trucks from its lineup, according to people familiar with the matter. The company last month stopped making an electric cargo van, the Chevrolet BrightDrop.
A GM spokesman said the automaker has no current plans to further change its product lineup or overall direction. The company is making progress in reducing the cost of making the trucks, he said.
Ford’s Farley has conceded that, when it comes to EVs, Americans want smaller, affordable models like those sold by Chinese automakers in markets outside the U.S., and not big, pricey trucks. The company is now racing to build a compact $30,000 EV pickup.
Ford built up the capacity to make as many as 150,000 Lightnings a year.
EVs cost billions to develop and manufacture, and can only be profitable if they sell in large enough volumes to cover the cost of building them, said Lenny LaRocca, who leads consulting firm KPMG’s auto sector. And nothing suggests robust sales in the near future.
“The volumes are not hitting where people would have expected when they made these investments,” he said.
Write to Sharon Terlep at sharon.terlep@wsj.com
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Yeah, my Dad's FoMoCo stock reports tried to sugar coat the hemorrhaging money from that ill-fated thing for a few years, now it simply doesn't even mention it. They've lost a LOT of money on it. Even with their absolutely ridiculous price tags, they were still losers.
I would have thought that Brightdrop thing would have made it a little longer, at least those have a practical use. But again, that $80 price tag is a tough one. And Rivian is trying to sell their electric van to anyone that will buy one given Amazon decided not to buy any more.
I would have thought that Brightdrop thing would have made it a little longer, at least those have a practical use. But again, that $80 price tag is a tough one. And Rivian is trying to sell their electric van to anyone that will buy one given Amazon decided not to buy any more.
jmodge
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- Joined
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- TDI
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Supply and demand, if there's no demand, a product can't be supplied. That goes for anything. It will be interesting to see, as far as I'm curious, if the auto industry cuts out unnecessary frills and makes more basic affordable vehicles. Then lets the people who have the expendable money and want options order and pay for them, instead of making them standard.
Having affordable vehicles would help folks move away from living solely on credit. It's a shaky situation and one that it appears a majority of people have a hard time avoiding nowadays.
I would have no problem putting an EV in my fleet for short range travel, but I won't piss my money away to pay for marketing costs that amount to a load of bull. Same goes for a conventional vehicle, not just EV's. I still have my trusty K5 I can put $60,000 to $80,000 worth of fuel into and still come out ahead because it won't blindside me with failure.
Having affordable vehicles would help folks move away from living solely on credit. It's a shaky situation and one that it appears a majority of people have a hard time avoiding nowadays.
I would have no problem putting an EV in my fleet for short range travel, but I won't piss my money away to pay for marketing costs that amount to a load of bull. Same goes for a conventional vehicle, not just EV's. I still have my trusty K5 I can put $60,000 to $80,000 worth of fuel into and still come out ahead because it won't blindside me with failure.