real world EVs review

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Here's the car: base version, no options.

Quirk has one in transit:

The one I picked earlier was from Beck Chevrolet, and despite the site saying it was an "exact" match, it did have a couple options I hadn't specified.

So even with the tax credits and rebate the cost is about a wash with the aforementioned Jetta, which is a better quality car and significantly roomier. And it doesn't need a charger. And I could get one with a manual transmission.

 

[gmenounos]

Yep, that's the 2LT trim, which is priced $3200 higher than the cheapest trim (1LT), so probably about $22k after the state and federal incentives.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

You're right. The 1LT shows $27,495 with destination charge, so about $2,500 less than the 2LT. North Shore Chevrolet of Smithtown (wherever that is) shows one in transit for $28,257. That is better.

 

[gmenounos]

You're right. The 1LT shows $27,495 with destination charge, so about $2,500 less than the 2LT. North Shore Chevrolet of Smithtown (wherever that is) shows one in transit for $28,257. That is better.

That's in NY (I would have guessed RI) so you'd save $3500 if you bought it from a dealer in MA: https://mor-ev.org/

 

[oilhammer]

When they are $3k in the used market, and can still function the same as they did when they were new, I'll consider it (but dang, they are still hideous to look at).

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I find it amusing that as time goes by and I'm more able to afford a new car, I'm less inclined to buy one. They just seem too expensive for what you get, especially now. Even if the Bolt, with its limited utility, costs $18,800 after credits and rebates, I could buy a really nice CR TDI for half that. I think that's the the OP here has figured out.

I did by my Jetta Wagon new, and I can't argue that purchase. And my '15 GSW. They're probably the two cars I'll keep indefinitely.

 

[gmenounos]

As time goes by and I get older, I have less and less desire to be the primary mechanic for 2 older TDIs. I think I can still handle keeping one on the road myself. The 2 good TDI shops in my area are each 50 minutes away - and that's if there's no traffic.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

You can pay for depreciation, or pay for maintenance and repairs if you don't want to do it yourself. Take your choice. I only do routine maintenance on my TDIs myself, the rest is done by a guru. Even so, I spend far less than I would experience with costs of a new car: insurance, taxes, and depreciation. It does take a time commitment, but not a big one. Honestly, older TDIs don't require a lot of attention if you stay on top of things.

 

[gmenounos]

And staying on top of things in two 20 year old cars can require a lot of attention.

Anyway, for me, it's no longer about how much it costs to put fuel in the tank or what the car costs to buy. I really do believe that ICE emissions are killing the planet so I'm not going to buy another ICE vehicle, even a fuel sipping TDI.

 

[oilhammer]

There's plenty already out there to keep going. I was at our machine shop yesterday pickup up an ALH block after cleaning (resurrecting another one), and the amount of older (mostly domestic V8) engines they are going through there is pretty astounding. Excluding the new Godzilla, the last Ford pushrod V8 bowed out in 1997, yet there were at least five Ford blocks I saw there... so somebody is keeping those old things alive. And the old GM (mostly Chevrolet, but pretty sure I saw a Pontiac one there, too) were abundant as well. The activity on all the now "classic" truck sites I frequent when lend support to the resurgence in these.

 

[gmenounos]

And I'm not trying to convince anyone else here to buy an EV. All my posts about the Bolt were meant to point out that as far as new EVs go, it's a pretty good deal. I'm well aware that others here believe differently about climate or don't have the money or want to spend the money on a new car, or don't have good charging nearby, or drive long distances all the time. You do you.

 

[tikal]

Besides the relatively inexpensive Bolt, is there a way to show that current/recent non-Tesla electric vehicles SUV/CUVs sales are clearly displacing ICE vehicles (hybrid or not) such as Toyota RAV4, Honda CRV, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Toyota Highlander, Chevrolet Equinox, Ford Explorer, Nissan Rogue, Jeep Wrangler, Hyundai Tucson, Mazda CX-5, etc.?

I think we agree that a segment of today's car enthusiasts, like the OP, will go for EVs in lieu of buying an Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Lexus, Jaguar, Acura, etc.

And the rest of us on a budget, what for long distance road trips with the family?

 

[oilhammer]

The entire choice of vehicles available is diminishing rapidly. Cars are a rarity, and even at that, most are sedan only. Those of us that prefer the real-world utility of a hatchback or station wagon have very limited choices. These ugly cross-dressers are abysmal. They are awful to look at, awful to drive, and just too darn expensive anyway. Minivans are fewer now, and those have gotten ridiculous expensive, too.

But, this is what the public seems to "want". Not me, though. The powertrain is almost an afterthought to me anymore, really. I like my Golfs and Passats. Can't buy them anymore, and can't even buy a version of them anymore. Taos? Gross. Arteon? That's worse than the CC it replaced.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Besides the relatively inexpensive Bolt, is there a way to show that current/recent non-Tesla electric vehicles SUV/CUVs sales are clearly displacing ICE vehicles (hybrid or not) such as Toyota RAV4, Honda CRV, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Toyota Highlander, Chevrolet Equinox, Ford Explorer, Nissan Rogue, Jeep Wrangler, Hyundai Tucson, Mazda CX-5, etc.?

I think we agree that a segment of today's car enthusiasts, like the OP, will go for EVs in lieu of buying an Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Lexus, Jaguar, Acura, etc.

And the rest of us on a budget, what for long distance road trips with the family?

EV sales are growing, but they've got a long, long way to go to exceed ICE vehicle sales. And I've been on more than one enthusiast site that recommends buying the ICE version of the large Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi vehicle instead of the EV model. So I don't think that segment is going to see wholesale migration to EVs, either.

Part of the problem is what oilhammer points out. There are very few, if any, good small cars available in North America. VW discontinued the Golf here, only selling the GTI and R now, which are pretty expensive. If you don't want a Bolt, what are you going to buy from GM? A Trax? Really? I saw a Ford Fiesta ST on the road today. Those, and the Escort, gone. Even Hyundai has gotten rid of its hatchbacks. And I believe the only wagons available now are from Volvo, Audi, and Mercedes. Expensive.

It may be ironic that manufacturers trying to force us away from ICE cars and into EVs may cause some parts of the market to maintain and continue to drive older polluting gasoline and diesel vehicles.

 

[oilhammer]

The irony is glaring, indeed.

 

[tikal]

EV sales are growing, but they've got a long, long way to go to exceed ICE vehicle sales. And I've been on more than one enthusiast site that recommends buying the ICE version of the large Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi vehicle instead of the EV model. So I don't think that segment is going to see wholesale migration to EVs, either.

Part of the problem is what oilhammer points out. There are very few, if any, good small cars available in North America. VW discontinued the Golf here, only selling the GTI and R now, which are pretty expensive. If you don't want a Bolt, what are you going to buy from GM? A Trax? Really? I saw a Ford Fiesta ST on the road today. Those, and the Escort, gone. Even Hyundai has gotten rid of its hatchbacks. And I believe the only wagons available now are from Volvo, Audi, and Mercedes. Expensive.

It may be ironic that manufacturers trying to force us away from ICE cars and into EVs may cause some parts of the market to maintain and continue to drive older polluting gasoline and diesel vehicles.

Ok, I agree about, not having new good small cars in North America anymore. Fair point.

I was just trying to see if stats show that the sales of the VW ID4, Hyundai Ioniq 5 and similar non-Tesla vehicles (not small sedans) are decreasing the sales of the Toyota RAV4, Honda CRV, etc.

It seems is that we have to wait for at least another year to answer such question with better statistical confidence. Right now, if you ask me, I would say, no.

 

[gmenounos]

Everyone that lives near me has an SUV or a minivan or both. And these are not big families that seem like they need the extra space. Most have 2 kids or less and don't have a huge dog. I don't know if this is because people are wanting giant vehicles or because that's mostly what's for sale now or if they're just copying what they see their neighbors do. When I drive around here on the highway, especially heading up to NH, there are lots of really big pickup trucks, and not working trucks either, shiny, new, no scratches, no toolbox in the back. And with tail pipes that look like I could fit my arm in.

 

[Tin Man]

Environmental stewardship involves more than political talking points and pie-in-the-sky policies that might look better on paper than in the messy world of geo-political reality we live in. The EV pushing majority doesn't account much for the negative effects nor does it look at these effects as some sort of "subsidy" need.

The hard facts involve people like Putin, coal-fired electric plants courtesy of the CCP, and subsidized SUV/CUV use over small sedans. Even public transport for all its benefits doesn't measure up since rarely is it ever mentioned the miserable ridership statistics, cost/mile, etc. It has always been fear of crime that drove people to suburbs away from public transportation.

I'll just take a walk outside where I get the privilege of inhaling particulate matter - most of which comes from tire wear, or even better come back into the house for a good dose of indoor air pollution.

 

[oilhammer]

Speaking of indoor air pollution... wife made some red beans and rice with chicken and cheese last night, and the entire shop is feeling it today. Phew!!!

 

[TomJD]

In my opinion, VW really owned the market when it came to quality small cars in the US. Maybe not by sales numbers but they provided an outstanding package given the size of vehicle. I know everyone has talked here about how VW provides nothing for their loyal enthusiasts so I’m not trying to change the thread’s direction.

But I prefer a small car. And I’ve never been in a small car other than a VW that I felt safe in. And by safety I mean what other car the size of a MKIV Jetta/Golf can do 90 with the A/C on and not feel like the car will explode? I even prefer my 2000 to my 2015!

Quality has been the issue I’ve had with my Dad’s EV. They have significant weight due to the batteries, and you feel that in the handling. But the rest of the car is so low on the quality scale. Get rid of the iPad dash and EV tech and they make Kia look like luxury cars. He has had a 2017 Leaf and a 2019 Volt for reference (only 1000 of the 36,000 miles on the Volt are gas, so it’s an electric car for all intents and purposes).

 

[turbobrick240]

EV sales are growing, but they've got a long, long way to go to exceed ICE vehicle sales. And I've been on more than one enthusiast site that recommends buying the ICE version of the large Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi vehicle instead of the EV model. So I don't think that segment is going to see wholesale migration to EVs, either.

Part of the problem is what oilhammer points out. There are very few, if any, good small cars available in North America. VW discontinued the Golf here, only selling the GTI and R now, which are pretty expensive. If you don't want a Bolt, what are you going to buy from GM? A Trax? Really? I saw a Ford Fiesta ST on the road today. Those, and the Escort, gone. Even Hyundai has gotten rid of its hatchbacks. And I believe the only wagons available now are from Volvo, Audi, and Mercedes. Expensive.

It may be ironic that manufacturers trying to force us away from ICE cars and into EVs may cause some parts of the market to maintain and continue to drive older polluting gasoline and diesel vehicles.

I was going to say a new GTI starts in the $25k range, but I see the MSRP now starts over $30k. Ouch. You can still get a new Kia Rio for about half that, but they have definitely given that design the penalty box treatment over the last decade, imo. Used to be decent looking a while back. Supposedly car prices are about to plummet. I hope so. Some across the board deflation would be nice.

 

[Steve Addy]

All this fretting and fussing about what man has done / is doing to the environment / planet, and there's nothing except hysterical propaganda to support any of it. It's hubris to believe the man could impact the planet / environment...there's just no proof. Here we are multiple decades after the continual prognostications about the 'sky is falling' and it hasn't happened...the fear mongering is nothing but trying to get governments to impose carbon controls and other such nonsense on people. The endless barrage of shrieking Karens is so annoying!!!!

And as an aside, if you're buying something to be green you're taking the wrong approach. There's nothing greener than that which has already been built, maintenance concerns aside, even if you count emissions. So replacing your viable car with a new one is still consuming precious resources...and in the case of EV's it's causing horrible working conditions in the Congo with regard to cobalt mining, and these issues will be magnified as adoption increases. There doesn't seem to be any consideration about the destruction of the globe to acquire the resources needed to bring these EV's into fruition. Where's your concern about that? Again....buying an EV is just virtue signaling to your neighbors that you're supposedly woke.

I hear this all the time, neighbor going to replace perfectly good water heater with high efficiency unit because it's 'high efficiency.' When you tell them that the increased efficiency will never save enough to pay for the replacement they look at you like a deer in the headlights.

You can do maintenance on a 20yo car if you choose to...but you have to want to. I'm like IBW...not inclined to pay for a new car, they're outrageously priced, and what I have works fine now...I'm not interested in EV's, they aren't viable for what I need a vehicle for nor are they viable in my part of the country for the traveling I do.

All this EV pushing is tedious and tiring, especially on a forum that's for people who own diesel powered Volkswagens.

Steve

 

[gmenounos]

All this EV pushing is tedious and tiring, especially on a forum that's for people who own diesel powered Volkswagens.

Well, you might want to spend your time in threads not titled "real world EVs review" if this kind of thing bothers you so much. Last I checked, there were hundreds of other discussions here.

 

[oilhammer]

I rather enjoy the discussion, once Greta was kicked out and not "ICE-shaming" everyone. I think it is interesting to see the technology evolve, even if it isn't (and probably won't ever) be something for me personally.

 

[Johhny04]

All this fretting and fussing about what man has done / is doing to the environment / planet, and there's nothing except hysterical propaganda to support any of it. It's hubris to believe the man could impact the planet / environment...there's just no proof. Here we are multiple decades after the continual prognostications about the 'sky is falling' and it hasn't happened...the fear mongering is nothing but trying to get governments to impose carbon controls and other such nonsense on people. The endless barrage of shrieking Karens is so annoying!!!!

And as an aside, if you're buying something to be green you're taking the wrong approach. There's nothing greener than that which has already been built, maintenance concerns aside, even if you count emissions. So replacing your viable car with a new one is still consuming precious resources...and in the case of EV's it's causing horrible working conditions in the Congo with regard to cobalt mining, and these issues will be magnified as adoption increases. There doesn't seem to be any consideration about the destruction of the globe to acquire the resources needed to bring these EV's into fruition. Where's your concern about that? Again....buying an EV is just virtue signaling to your neighbors that you're supposedly woke.

I hear this all the time, neighbor going to replace perfectly good water heater with high efficiency unit because it's 'high efficiency.' When you tell them that the increased efficiency will never save enough to pay for the replacement they look at you like a deer in the headlights.

You can do maintenance on a 20yo car if you choose to...but you have to want to. I'm like IBW...not inclined to pay for a new car, they're outrageously priced, and what I have works fine now...I'm not interested in EV's, they aren't viable for what I need a vehicle for nor are they viable in my part of the country for the traveling I do.

All this EV pushing is tedious and tiring, especially on a forum that's for people who own diesel powered Volkswagens.

Steve

Great summary of what our world currently looks like. People need to do more of their own research and rely less on others.

 

[Tin Man]

Its pretty simple to view. "Zero emission vehicles" is a false statement from the get-go.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

All this fretting and fussing about what man has done / is doing to the environment / planet, and there's nothing except hysterical propaganda to support any of it. It's hubris to believe the man could impact the planet / environment...there's just no proof. Here we are multiple decades after the continual prognostications about the 'sky is falling' and it hasn't happened...the fear mongering is nothing but trying to get governments to impose carbon controls and other such nonsense on people. The endless barrage of shrieking Karens is so annoying!!!!

And as an aside, if you're buying something to be green you're taking the wrong approach. There's nothing greener than that which has already been built, maintenance concerns aside, even if you count emissions. So replacing your viable car with a new one is still consuming precious resources...and in the case of EV's it's causing horrible working conditions in the Congo with regard to cobalt mining, and these issues will be magnified as adoption increases. There doesn't seem to be any consideration about the destruction of the globe to acquire the resources needed to bring these EV's into fruition. Where's your concern about that? Again....buying an EV is just virtue signaling to your neighbors that you're supposedly woke.

I hear this all the time, neighbor going to replace perfectly good water heater with high efficiency unit because it's 'high efficiency.' When you tell them that the increased efficiency will never save enough to pay for the replacement they look at you like a deer in the headlights.

You can do maintenance on a 20yo car if you choose to...but you have to want to. I'm like IBW...not inclined to pay for a new car, they're outrageously priced, and what I have works fine now...I'm not interested in EV's, they aren't viable for what I need a vehicle for nor are they viable in my part of the country for the traveling I do.

All this EV pushing is tedious and tiring, especially on a forum that's for people who own diesel powered Volkswagens.

Steve

What is the name of this particular sub forum?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I hear this all the time, neighbor going to replace perfectly good water heater with high efficiency unit because it's 'high efficiency.' When you tell them that the increased efficiency will never save enough to pay for the replacement they look at you like a deer in the headlights.

My favorite example of this is replacement windows. Any builder worth anything will tell you that you'll never get the cost of replacement windows back in energy savings.

I did replace my end-of-life boiler (25 years old and leaking) with a much smaller and effecient one a couple years ago, and it dropped my fuel consumption by nearly 40%. That did pay off. But I had to replace it regardless.

 

[tikal]

I rather enjoy the discussion, once Greta was kicked out and not "ICE-shaming" everyone. I think it is interesting to see the technology evolve, even if it isn't (and probably won't ever) be something for me personally.

Thank you. Well said!

 

[tikal]

My favorite example of this is replacement windows. Any builder worth anything will tell you that you'll never get the cost of replacement windows back in energy savings.

I did replace my end-of-life boiler (25 years old and leaking) with a much smaller and effecient one a couple years ago, and it dropped my fuel consumption by nearly 40%. That did pay off. But I had to replace it regardless.

We had to replace our single pane thin windows. We chose to go with double pane Argon filled ones. There were more than one benefit in doing this. Yes the Argon does leak gradually but we should be good for some time with these.

All in all we try to set the thermostat for cooling/heating in a way to reduce energy consumption while being relatively comfortable in the house.