real world EVs review

[ZippyNH]

Pencil the math out, before you heavily invest in batteries. I haven't found a turn key or diy approach that pays for itself in the life expectancy of the batteries for more them supplemental/ short term back up. I just recently looked into them again, adding solar to the shop later this summer and I still can't make the math work with our power consumption, production and how our net metering is structured to get batteries.

Then the game is always changing...
Net metering gets the rates changed etc...sure you get locked into a "deal" or grandfathered in some areas, but what's the probability on a system with a 30 year lifespan that NEEDS that long for the math to work, that the rules won't change AGAIN.
Unfortunately the industry as a whole is unstable...items my have good warranties individually but then companies doing the installation simply disappear....so unless you like to tinker and self teach and become a bit of a subject matter expert (much like tdi's, lol), people are in for a rude awakening ... people who want "turn-key" and "it just works" are often disappointed.
Only real advantages is if it's a system can is grid-tie that ALSO can be standalone for a backup...
So short term can supply SOME power in a blackout.

There are many pitfalls...
Micro inverters on individual panels were/are very popular as it increases efficiency in general, BUT a common mounting method results in you needing to REMOVE ENTIRE ROWS to access a single panel to swap out a single micro inverter....the company's that typically did this type of install frequently we're here today, gone tomorrow....but you have a "manufacturers warranty" , but need to go through a seller, and pay the labor.

Not saying solar is a bad choice...but anybody who says they did it for purely financial reasons are really smoking something....much if it is having the panels on the roof to show off as a way to signal to others ones views.... seriously...kinda like a Karen haircut or blue hair.

 

[turbobrick240]

The math pencils out pretty quickly if you purchase or build on a property that would require a number of utility poles to be installed to connect to grid power. I have two neighbors within about a half mile that just installed solar and battery banks for that very reason.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

My experience with solar has been a financial win, big time. First, it has nearly eliminated my electric bills for the past 12 years. I may get a bill late summer/early fall depending on A/C use in the summer, but that's it. Second, I was receiving carbon credit payments that varied between $1,500 - $2,200/year for 10 years. The system cost was recovered in less than 4 years. And it's required zero maintenance.

Our utility offers net metering, which works great for me. Spring and fall allow us to build up credits we can use during winter (low production) and summer (high consumption). I got a "bill" yesterday, it showed a $172 credit. That will get slowly used up if we have a hot summer.

I have a generator, but I don't particularly like it. It used to turn on automatically when the power fails, but I've shut that feature off. If we have an extended blackout it's very expensive to run. I'd prefer battery backup for short outages, but it doesn't seem to be worth the investment.

 

[dieseldonato]

Then the game is always changing...
Net metering gets the rates changed etc...sure you get locked into a "deal" or grandfathered in some areas, but what's the probability on a system with a 30 year lifespan that NEEDS that long for the math to work, that the rules won't change AGAIN.
Unfortunately the industry as a whole is unstable...items my have good warranties individually but then companies doing the installation simply disappear....so unless you like to tinker and self teach and become a bit of a subject matter expert (much like tdi's, lol), people are in for a rude awakening ... people who want "turn-key" and "it just works" are often disappointed.
Only real advantages is if it's a system can is grid-tie that ALSO can be standalone for a backup...
So short term can supply SOME power in a blackout.

There are many pitfalls...
Micro inverters on individual panels were/are very popular as it increases efficiency in general, BUT a common mounting method results in you needing to REMOVE ENTIRE ROWS to access a single panel to swap out a single micro inverter....the company's that typically did this type of install frequently we're here today, gone tomorrow....but you have a "manufacturers warranty" , but need to go through a seller, and pay the labor.

Not saying solar is a bad choice...but anybody who says they did it for purely financial reasons are really smoking something....much if it is having the panels on the roof to show off as a way to signal to others ones views.... seriously...kinda like a Karen haircut or blue hair.

We found out about flaky installers, fourtantly, besides a tree falling on the house a few months ago, zero issues, and none of the manufacturers care if I do the work myself. Had to take some classes to gain access to solar edges software/ commision my new system., but it wasnt difficult to do. The system on the house should pay for itself in about 10 years. We did get a 30% tax credit after the system was on the house, I'm not sure if that applies anymore. I'll have to look into it later. We seldom get more then a few $50-60 bills a year anymore. Im hopeing to eliminate that altogether with the extra 4kw on the shop. We have net metering, and a 25 year contract with the electric company. The more people with grid tie system they sign on, the less their penalty fee for not having enough "green energy" is. So it benefits us both.
Yes my system is capable of adding in battery banks as back up/ supplemental power, but the battery cost isnt worth it vs just letting the geberator run the essentials in the event the power goes out. Which has been pretty reliable in recent years. Seems we're out for a few hours most times, and the days/weeks without power is going away.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Wow, does that mean in two years my 2017 Bolt is going to self-destruct?

Hopefully not, from what I've heard of Volt experiences parts availability is iffy.

 

[tikal]

Pencil the math out, before you heavily invest in batteries. I haven't found a turn key or diy approach that pays for itself in the life expectancy of the batteries for more them supplemental/ short term back up. I just recently looked into them again, adding solar to the shop later this summer and I still can't make the math work with our power consumption, production and how our net metering is structured to get batteries.

Ok, that's fair.

What about having a battery for just emergency purposes, instead of a tri-fuel inverter portable generator? I am now more inclined to get a portable power station (up to 3 kWh) that Costco sells. Something like the Anker SOLIX F3800 or Ecoflow DELTA Pro. The prices are very competitive to a conventional tri-fuel generator nowadays.

 

[P2B]

Ok, that's fair.

What about having a battery for just emergency purposes, instead of a tri-fuel inverter portable generator? I am now more inclined to get a portable power station (up to 3 kWh) that Costco sells. Something like the Anker SOLIX F3800 or Ecoflow DELTA Pro. The prices are very competitive to a conventional tri-fuel generator nowadays.

Depends on your outage expectations. We typically experience at least one multi-day outage due to extreme weather annually, and these events are becoming more frequent. We were out for over a week after the ice storm this spring - remote customers are lower priority. A number of my neighbors with automatic generators experienced outages due to failed control boards or delayed propane deliveries. A battery pack would be inadequate in these circumstances. My gasoline powered portable has not let me down yet.

 

[El Dobro]

Hopefully not, from what I've heard of Volt experiences parts availability is iffy.

I certainly hope not, I only have 90,000 miles on the car. I did watch a video though, of a guy that has 406,000 miles on his.

 

[prsa01]

My experience with solar has been a financial win, big time. First, it has nearly eliminated my electric bills for the past 12 years. I may get a bill late summer/early fall depending on A/C use in the summer, but that's it. Second, I was receiving carbon credit payments that varied between $1,500 - $2,200/year for 10 years. The system cost was recovered in less than 4 years. And it's required zero maintenance.

Our utility offers net metering, which works great for me. Spring and fall allow us to build up credits we can use during winter (low production) and summer (high consumption). I got a "bill" yesterday, it showed a $172 credit. That will get slowly used up if we have a hot summer.

I have a generator, but I don't particularly like it. It used to turn on automatically when the power fails, but I've shut that feature off. If we have an extended blackout it's very expensive to run. I'd prefer battery backup for short outages, but it doesn't seem to be worth the investment.

You have past tense in some of this. Did the carbon credits expire/time out/become unavailable?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

The carbon credit contract was for 10 years. Not sure why, perhaps that's what the target as the useful life of the system, although that seems short. Regardless, I still get payments, but they're much smaller. Just got one last week for the first few months of the year, $184. In the past it would have been over $1K.

Doesn't really matter to me at this point: the system has long since recovered its cost, and I'm still not paying a power bill most of the time.

 

[dieseldonato]

Ok, that's fair.

What about having a battery for just emergency purposes, instead of a tri-fuel inverter portable generator? I am now more inclined to get a portable power station (up to 3 kWh) that Costco sells. Something like the Anker SOLIX F3800 or Ecoflow DELTA Pro. The prices are very competitive to a conventional tri-fuel generator nowadays.

Like p2b mentioned, it depends on your circumstances. I already have a pretty efficinet little diesel generator,(that's paid for and then some) so a battery system would have to come in pretty cheap for me to consider it.

 

[pkhoury]

Pencil the math out, before you heavily invest in batteries. I haven't found a turn key or diy approach that pays for itself in the life expectancy of the batteries for more them supplemental/ short term back up. I just recently looked into them again, adding solar to the shop later this summer and I still can't make the math work with our power consumption, production and how our net metering is structured to get batteries.

For me, it would be powering occasional use lights, a 90 year old GE monitor top fridge that runs all the time (on about 8 minutes off about 15-20), my Zebra label printer, and a scale. Might add something else to the mix, but I got my 12v 100ah lifepo4 batteries for about $100 each, and when the retailer has them back in stock (mostly second hand batteries), I'll try and add 3 more to bump my capacity up to around 7kw. I'm not trying to run everything off the grid, otherwise yes, the pencil math wouldn't make sense at this point.

Another future project involves expanding wifi over my property - next time I rent a rock saw, trench in some fiber, and use 12v fiber to copper POE bridges, to power access points (the north end to the south end of my property is around 1200 feet). Smaller lifepo4 batteries and a smaller solar panel would be perfect for this project.

 

[pkhoury]

Like p2b mentioned, it depends on your circumstances. I already have a pretty efficinet little diesel generator,(that's paid for and then some) so a battery system would have to come in pretty cheap for me to consider it.

What kind of generator? I'm using a gov surplus N2FD (3 cylinder Kubota D905 connected to a 7kw gen head). I use it more as the light tower it is for night projects on the ranch, but it's super useful.

 

[ZippyNH]

I certainly hope not, I only have 90,000 miles on the car. I did watch a video though, of a guy that has 406,000 miles on his.

Battery aging seems to be more time related if you look at many cars that are heavily used as Uber/Lyft cars..... general consensus is lightly used hybrids that are driven mostly highway and often stored at lower charge levels (often highway speeds WITHOUT LOTS OF CITY DRIVING) tend to die and early death.

 

[tikal]

Like p2b mentioned, it depends on your circumstances. I already have a pretty efficinet little diesel generator,(that's paid for and then some) so a battery system would have to come in pretty cheap for me to consider it.

Agree with your reasoning in your circumstances. I do not have any kind of backup generator right now so I am looking for something with less moving parts that I can also be used indoors. Budget at around $3,000 for a 3 kWh portable battery storage generator from Costco. If there are any issues I will take it back and be done with it.

Anyone in a similar situation?

 

[dieseldonato]

For me, it would be powering occasional use lights, a 90 year old GE monitor top fridge that runs all the time (on about 8 minutes off about 15-20), my Zebra label printer, and a scale. Might add something else to the mix, but I got my 12v 100ah lifepo4 batteries for about $100 each, and when the retailer has them back in stock (mostly second hand batteries), I'll try and add 3 more to bump my capacity up to around 7kw. I'm not trying to run everything off the grid, otherwise yes, the pencil math wouldn't make sense at this point.

Another future project involves expanding wifi over my property - next time I rent a rock saw, trench in some fiber, and use 12v fiber to copper POE bridges, to power access points (the north end to the south end of my property is around 1200 feet). Smaller lifepo4 batteries and a smaller solar panel would be perfect for this project.

We were looking at full off grid at first, when we were looking there (admittedly) wernt a lot of good options that were economical, and would work for the peak load we see over summer. Looked at Tesla, generac, outback and a few diy options. Cheapest came in around $40k for the battery set up, charge controllers, cables etc. Decided against it. I didnt look at smaller back up systems since we're seldom away from home long enough for it to matter if the power is out for a few hours till we get back home.
I looked into a back up system when I was specing out the system for the shop, unfortunately at this point, I would have to change out a lot of hardware to make it happen. Again, it came down to I can power the house for a long time on the generator to make up the differsnce.

What kind of generator? I'm using a gov surplus N2FD (3 cylinder Kubota D905 connected to a 7kw gen head). I use it more as the light tower it is for night projects on the ranch, but it's super useful.

Mosa gy6000d. Air cooled yanmar L100. It wont handle our summer load, but I dont mind turning a few things off. We're limited to 2 ac units and the hot water heater needs turned off. (Well it needs turned off no matter what. It hogs 4500 watts by itsself.) I actually got it with 16 hours in the meter. Some rando brought it into the shop not running. I'm the yanmar guy, so my boss told me to look at it when I got back off the road. Thing had very low compression, 40 psi if I recall correctly. Called the guy and got permission to pop the head off, said ok. Pretty obvious he used either on it once the head wad off. Long scratch down the cylinder wall, and a big Crack across the top of the piston going into the ring land. Called him back with an estamate to fix it. He then admitted, he got it for $100.00 off a widow thay was selling everything to move to a home. The battery was dead, so he tried to stsrt it by hand, couldn't make it run so he gave it a shot of either (half a can wad more like it imo.) It ran for a second made a series if knocking/ banging sounds and shut off pretty abruptly. He wasnt interested in fixing it at that point. I told him I'd pay the shop bill and give him his hundred bucks back. He said ok. Think I stuck another $150.00 worth of parts in it. Basically an oversized piston, and gasket kit was all it needed. The machine work I did on my own time with the help of one of the block guys. Been running great ever since.
I do wish it was a bit bigger, but for the money I have in it, and how it sips fuel, I doubt ill be getting rid of it anytime soon.

 

[pkhoury]

We were looking at full off grid at first, when we were looking there (admittedly) wernt a lot of good options that were economical, and would work for the peak load we see over summer. Looked at Tesla, generac, outback and a few diy options. Cheapest came in around $40k for the battery set up, charge controllers, cables etc. Decided against it. I didnt look at smaller back up systems since we're seldom away from home long enough for it to matter if the power is out for a few hours till we get back home.
I looked into a back up system when I was specing out the system for the shop, unfortunately at this point, I would have to change out a lot of hardware to make it happen. Again, it came down to I can power the house for a long time on the generator to make up the differsnce.

Mosa gy6000d. Air cooled yanmar L100. It wont handle our summer load, but I dont mind turning a few things off. We're limited to 2 ac units and the hot water heater needs turned off. (Well it needs turned off no matter what. It hogs 4500 watts by itsself.) I actually got it with 16 hours in the meter. Some rando brought it into the shop not running. I'm the yanmar guy, so my boss told me to look at it when I got back off the road. Thing had very low compression, 40 psi if I recall correctly. Called the guy and got permission to pop the head off, said ok. Pretty obvious he used either on it once the head wad off. Long scratch down the cylinder wall, and a big Crack across the top of the piston going into the ring land. Called him back with an estamate to fix it. He then admitted, he got it for $100.00 off a widow thay was selling everything to move to a home. The battery was dead, so he tried to stsrt it by hand, couldn't make it run so he gave it a shot of either (half a can wad more like it imo.) It ran for a second made a series if knocking/ banging sounds and shut off pretty abruptly. He wasnt interested in fixing it at that point. I told him I'd pay the shop bill and give him his hundred bucks back. He said ok. Think I stuck another $150.00 worth of parts in it. Basically an oversized piston, and gasket kit was all it needed. The machine work I did on my own time with the help of one of the block guys. Been running great ever since.
I do wish it was a bit bigger, but for the money I have in it, and how it sips fuel, I doubt ill be getting rid of it anytime soon.

That's not too bad. I think I spent about $1300-ish on my genset, actually two cities and one county north of where I parked right now for a 90 minute nap on the way to DFW for our yearly retro computer convention. I think it had around 3K-ish hours on it, spec'd for about 10K before a full rebuild. It's never let me down, and it's a 3 cylinder IDI motor. When I got it, changed all the fluids, filters, and flushed the coolant. At some point, I'll flush the coolant and move it to VW G13, since I'm trying to use that in damn near everything. I do want to eventually get it on a larger fuel tank, as the 8-ish gallon tank it came with as built for the military is crap. Fuel lines are removable, and I actually replaced those before, as they leaked, as well as the tiny fuel pump.

If I need something bigger, I do have a 25kw PTO generator I can connect to my tractor, that provides 120V, 240V, and 480V, all single phase. Connecting the 480V would be interesting, but useless for me - probably just connect the 240V to a portable subpanel, or institute a disconnect somehow to the subpanel I have installed at the ranch. I've sadly never had to use it, but a few times I almost did.

 

[kjclow]

Clearly you’ve never wanted to winch your 16x22 shed halfway across the yard.

Moving shed 1

• J_dude
• Jun 15, 2025

Moving shed 2

• J_dude
• Jun 15, 2025

Moving shed 3

• J_dude
• Jun 15, 2025

Nope. Only had to move mine a few feet after they dropped it off. Neighbor complained that I was closer to the property line than 5 feet. IIRC, I was about 4 feet.

 

[kjclow]

Pencil the math out, before you heavily invest in batteries. I haven't found a turn key or diy approach that pays for itself in the life expectancy of the batteries for more them supplemental/ short term back up. I just recently looked into them again, adding solar to the shop later this summer and I still can't make the math work with our power consumption, production and how our net metering is structured to get batteries.

Yup, that's part of the deal killer for me too. If I were to install solar, I'd want the battery backup to supply power when the grid goes down. That about doubles to price of the panels and install. So instead of a 15+ year payback, it would take me about 30 years. I'm 65 and doubt that I'll be in this house that long.

 

[P2B]

Another 14 hour power outage overnight, this time due to high winds bringing down a tree that was probably weakened in the ice storm.

I took the opportunity to write up step by step instructions for the generator backfeed setup in case it happens when I'm not around.

 

[turbobrick240]

I just ordered 4 300AH 12V LFP batteries for a friend that's going off grid. They were only $250 ea shipped brand new. It's crazy how much prices on LFP batteries have dropped in the last few years. She's also getting 10 350 watt solar panels for $80 a piece and a split phase 48V input inverter that will run the whole house. Definitely a budget system, but that's what she can afford for now. She'll add more batteries and panels when she can. I'm going to do the ground mount and install.

 

[dieseldonato]

Yup, that's part of the deal killer for me too. If I were to install solar, I'd want the battery backup to supply power when the grid goes down. That about doubles to price of the panels and install. So instead of a 15+ year payback, it would take me about 30 years. I'm 65 and doubt that I'll be in this house that long.

Basic system should have paid for itsself in 10-12 years max. Adding full battery back up/off grid is another story, greatly depending on your situation.

 

[kjclow]

Basic system should have paid for itsself in 10-12 years max. Adding full battery back up/off grid is another story, greatly depending on your situation.

The couple of times I've had someone out to quote, they always start with the claim that the system should pay itself off in under 10 years. The math never works in their favor.

 

[dieseldonato]

The couple of times I've had someone out to quote, they always start with the claim that the system should pay itself off in under 10 years. The math never works in their favor.

My system will be paid for around the 10 year mark, if not sooner. Only thing that would push it back further is electricity prices dropping significantly, loosing net metering, or srecs becoming totally worthless. Of the three, net metering would be the biggest hit. Selling back to the grid for retail value and "banking" that credit makes the system balance out pretty well throughout the year. Srecs arnt worth much. Maybe $30.00 a month.(if that) Electricity prices arnt dropping, conservatively you can figure 3-5% increase per year. We've seen as much as 30% increase in a year.
In addition to that, there is (was?) Up to a 30% federal tax credit for new solar installations. Some states have tax credits/incentives available too.
So, yeah, depending on what you're doing/harware you use you should be in the 10 year roi bracket. Adding batteries/off grid set ups, or loosing/ not taking advantage of available programs would significantly effect roi.

 

[ZippyNH]

Unfortunately the math on utility bills, at least in the New England area has changed so much...
Now 60-70% of the bill is "stranded costs", distribution and other fees, like $$ that's used for people who can't pay their bill and to subsidize green energy installs....
So $70 of electric usage becomes a $200 bill...
And only $70 can be offset....
Be VERY careful with expecting to save $$.
One hail storm and 30% of the panels might be junked...

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

This is old data, but perhaps a good point of reference.

System cost: $26,000
Federal tax credit: $7,500
Mass. rebate: $2,000
Net cost: $16,500
SREC payments: approx $2K/year x 4 = $8K
Electic bill savings: $2,400/year x4 = $9,600

So payback was in a little less than 4 years.

SREC payments used to be much higher than they are now, I realize. And our utility net meters. Doesn't matter what they pay for the electricity if you use it during the year.

 

[dieseldonato]

Unfortunately the math on utility bills, at least in the New England area has changed so much...
Now 60-70% of the bill is "stranded costs", distribution and other fees, like $$ that's used for people who can't pay their bill and to subsidize green energy installs....
So $70 of electric usage becomes a $200 bill...
And only $70 can be offset....
Be VERY careful with expecting to save $$.
One hail storm and 30% of the panels might be junked...

Storm damage is covered under your homeowners policy, and usualy there's a raring for what sort of impacts panels can take. They are a lot tougher then what you'd think. For example my silfab panels are rated to take a hit from 1" hail at 51.6mph. Ie, not a real issue for the area I live it. As as anecdote, we did have a tree (2 actually) fall on the house this past april. 6 panels took direct hits from the larger branches and spidered the glass, 4 panels had scratches in them, the panels were still producing power. Little over $200.00 each. That was the cheapest part of all the damage the tree caused, and the insurance company covered their replacment without question. what we were fighting about with them covering the siding on the house that was ripped off from the tree falling.
I cant really comment on how the math works out in other states, or even people that have ppl, vs met ed electric. I've never relied in the srec for any amount of appreciable income, they just arnt worth much here. Supposedly they used to be worth a lot more, I dont make enough off them to need to claim them on taxes every year. The net metering works really well, we go months at a time without any electric bills. Before the solar system we would have bills ranging from $280-350 each month. The system, sans srec money, and figuring a 3% electricity price increase pencils out to $197.00 a month over 20 years. I get a few bills over winter for $50-60.00. Still has me under grid cost and paying myself back at least $90.00 a month. (Actually its more then that, from 2023-2025 weve seen prices go from 0.07 to 0.11 per kwh. 47% price increase.)
So, thats usualy why I say it depends in your circumstances, and everyone needs to do the math for themselves, have all the variables figured out, and make as few assumptions as possible. Im basically making money having panels on the roof.

 

[noob_tl]

This is old data, but perhaps a good point of reference.

System cost: $26,000
Federal tax credit: $7,500
Mass. rebate: $2,000
Net cost: $16,500
SREC payments: approx $2K/year x 4 = $8K
Electic bill savings: $2,400/year x4 = $9,600

So payback was in a little less than 4 years.

SREC payments used to be much higher than they are now, I realize. And our utility net meters. Doesn't matter what they pay for the electricity if you use it during the year.

If I read this right the payback would have been about 11 years if only the net metering were in effect and not all the taxpayer subsidies ($26k / 2.4k). Without net metering it would have been much longer.

I don't blame you for taking advantage of the opportunity, it was a wise choice. The politicians who saddled the taxpayers with this may not have been so wise. Credits, rebates, and other subsidies can only work if a very small percentage of people take advantage of them. They are only effective if the technology can come down enough in price to sustain itself once those subsidies are removed. Often this is not the case.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Net metering is critical to the system being worth it. In retrospect, I wouldn't install a system unless net metering was available. It matters both intra-day, where we generate during the day when usage is low, and use it at night. And seasonally, where I generate a lot and use little in the Spring and Fall, getting me through the winter low production months and the summer high consumption months.

Even an off grid system with battery storage would be sub-optimal compared to net metering.

 

[pkhoury]

Nope. Only had to move mine a few feet after they dropped it off. Neighbor complained that I was closer to the property line than 5 feet. IIRC, I was about 4 feet.

Doing that sucks. I had to tow mine at different corners to move it about 90-100 feet with my diesel tractor. Mine was a rectangular gazebo, 10x15, but it's now enclosed. Needed it closer to my meter loop so I wouldn't spend a ridiculous amount of money on large gauge wire for my subpanel, plus get it closer to septic and water.