real world EVs review

[turbobrick240]

Truckers would riot if they had to pay fuel tax proportional to the wear their rigs incur on the roadways. It would also have an inflationary effect on the goods they haul.

Murphy’s Law: How Trucks Destroy Our Roads

And how a fee on trucks could solve state’s transportation problem.

urbanmilwaukee.com

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[tikal]

Would-be Tesla buyers snub company as Musk's reputation dips

"Tesla's consideration score fell 8 percentage points from January alone even as Caliber's scores for Mercedes (MBGn.DE), opens new tab, BMW (BMWG.DE), and Audi, which produce gas as well as EV models, inched up during that same period, reaching 44-47%."

" "The EV slowdown is shaping up to be a Tesla slowdown," Cox analyst Stephanie Valdez Streaty said during a conference call Thursday. "

 

[El Dobro]

They keep reporting Tesla's death, yet more and more of them are popping up in driveways and on the road, in my area. A few more showed up in my neighborhood, along with a Lyric. I pass by a Tesla staging area, just about every day and it's full for a day or two, empties out and fills up again. Once their charging sites are completely open to others, I can see them raking in more income that'll offset any sales loss.

As Mark Twain once said, " The report of my death was an exaggeration ".

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I don't think there's any reasonable person out there who thinks Tesla will die. However, even Elon Musk has predicted slower sales this year. But there's little doubt that, regardless of how much the EV industry slows down, Tesla will do as well or better than other manufacturers.

 

[jmodge]

Statistics, they can be manipulated to report just about anything a person, or computer, wants to reveal.
The eyeball test always suits me best. Even that changes depending on where you are and what you’re looking for

 

[J_dude]

Statistics, they can be manipulated to report just about anything a person, or computer, wants to reveal.
The eyeball test always suits me best. Even that changes depending on where you are and what you’re looking for

The eyeball test doesn't work if you're wearing rose coloured glasses though...

 

[jmodge]

The eyeball test doesn't work if you're wearing rose coloured glasses though...

I miss my rose colored glasses, got run over by an EV

 

[TomJD]

The Tesla Charging network continues to grow. FSD continues to be enhanced and there is talk about it being licensed or moved to a subscription service. The home power walls continue to sell.

So even if EV sales slow, the company has other revenue streams that can and are growing.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/02/tesla-tsla-q1-2024-vehicle-delivery-and-production-numbers.html

 

[oilhammer]

It's amazing how many of those there are at wholesale auction, too. Nobody wants them on trade, very strange. Some are of course crashed, and due to other things that would allow for anything else to be repaired, these can't. No Mexican road trains dragging them back across the southern border either.

 

[oilhammer]

Not many people want massive six-figure electric pickup trucks, either:

It turns out people don't want massive pickup truck EVs (msn.com)

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Massive pickups are an endangered species, period- Driving through the high growth areas of the south last week I noted that even in the exurbs lot widths are trending down to 50 to 60 feet. Even found a whole development of thousand or square foot or so new houses on what looked to be 30 foot lots on one of my backroad shortcuts into the Barber Museum near Birmingham! With these narrow lots everything gets scrunched down with single rather than double driveways and garages- When the massive pickup won't even fit in the garage and blocks the whole driveway, it's gone!

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

There's one of those Hummer EVs sitting outside our local GMC dealer. It's been there a while.

Quote from the article: "Additionally, the prevalence of cars and wagons in the segment points to buyers who are truly concerned with efficiency. Where else are you seeing more folks buying sedans and wagons than crossovers?"

Did I miss something? Is there an EV Wagon out there I'm not aware of?

 

[dieseldonato]

It's kind of tough to make everything completely equitable. A 80k lb semi causes a heck of a lot more wear to the road surface than 4 or 5 passes from a 3k lb Jetta TDI. I do think they went a bit overboard with the additional $250-$290 in fees in NJ, though. They ought to factor in the reduced noise and air pollution.

You're fairly far off base with that. Larger vehicles cost more to register and use a lot more fuel. Ie more tax money generated. The ev should be proportional as well. Has zero bearing weather it's a "green" vehicle or not. Registration fees should reflect its size (just like normal vehicles) and the electricity it takes taxed like every other fuel. The electric road tax loop hole was bound to be closed sooner or later.

Massive pickups are an endangered species, period- Driving through the high growth areas of the south last week I noted that even in the exurbs lot widths are trending down to 50 to 60 feet. Even found a whole development of thousand or square foot or so new houses on what looked to be 30 foot lots on one of my backroad shortcuts into the Barber Museum near Birmingham! With these narrow lots everything gets scrunched down with single rather than double driveways and garages- When the massive pickup won't even fit in the garage and blocks the whole driveway, it's gone!

Don't count on it. Few roads have flooded out around here from all the rain we've been having, (and 2 inches is expected till Thursday evening.) So I had to detour through a massive development to get to Martin's. Mostly row homes, one parking spot infront of each house. Curbside parking was a wreck, trucks, full size suv's galore few smaller suv/ cross overs and basically zero economy cars. Really sucked having the deck over and truck. Hardly enough room for 2 way traffic.
People like their big vehicles, don't care about the cost or fuel consumption. I don't disagree, I'd rather be driving either of my trucks or the expedition, but the tdi is much easier on fuel and economical as a daily driver. Not that I can't afford to drive the truck everyday, I just don't want to.

 

[turbobrick240]

You're fairly far off base with that. Larger vehicles cost more to register and use a lot more fuel. Ie more tax money generated. The ev should be proportional as well. Has zero bearing weather it's a "green" vehicle or not. Registration fees should reflect its size (just like normal vehicles) and the electricity it takes taxed like every other fuel. The electric road tax loop hole was bound to be closed sooner or later.

You must not have read the article I linked to. Most of the roadway wear is caused by heavy trucking. Weight per axle has an exponential effect on road damage. That's why most of the secondary roads around here are posted with seasonal weight restrictions during the spring when roads are most vulnerable to damage. EVs, due to their typically greater weight, do cause more road wear than comparable ICEVs, but it's pretty inconsequential in comparison to the wear from heavy trucks.

Inside Science

Of course not all road damage is the result of traffic. Weathering also plays a major role. An unused road will deteriorate over time too. And the "Fourth power law" of road damages is more of a generic rule of thumb. The exponent can vary from between 2 to 11 depending upon a large number of variables. But 4 is a good overall rule of thumb.

How Roads Fail... And Why They’re Set To Get Worse

Road transport produces tonnes of emissions, making it a driver of climate change. It is also one of the sectors most susceptible to the effects of climate change.

www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Equivalent Single Axle Load – Pavement Interactive

Free online knowledge for the paving industry

pavementinteractive.org

 

[El Dobro]

You must not have read the article I linked to. Most of the roadway wear is caused by heavy trucking. Weight per axle has an exponential effect on road damage. That's why most of the secondary roads around here are posted with seasonal weight restrictions during the spring when roads are most vulnerable to damage. EVs, due to their typically greater weight, do cause more road wear than comparable ICEVs, but it's pretty inconsequential in comparison to the wear from heavy trucks.

Inside Science

Of course not all road damage is the result of traffic. Weathering also plays a major role. An unused road will deteriorate over time too. And the "Fourth power law" of road damages is more of a generic rule of thumb. The exponent can vary from between 2 to 11 depending upon a large number of variables. But 4 is a good overall rule of thumb.

How Roads Fail... And Why They’re Set To Get Worse

Road transport produces tonnes of emissions, making it a driver of climate change. It is also one of the sectors most susceptible to the effects of climate change.

www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Equivalent Single Axle Load – Pavement Interactive

Free online knowledge for the paving industry

pavementinteractive.org

They repaved the 8 mile section of the Garden State Highway I drive on, last fall. So far, there's already 4 potholes, with one of them closing the right lane today.

 

[dieseldonato]

You must not have read the article I linked to. Most of the roadway wear is caused by heavy trucking. Weight per axle has an exponential effect on road damage. That's why most of the secondary roads around here are posted with seasonal weight restrictions during the spring when roads are most vulnerable to damage. EVs, due to their typically greater weight, do cause more road wear than comparable ICEVs, but it's pretty inconsequential in comparison to the wear from heavy trucks.

Inside Science

Of course not all road damage is the result of traffic. Weathering also plays a major role. An unused road will deteriorate over time too. And the "Fourth power law" of road damages is more of a generic rule of thumb. The exponent can vary from between 2 to 11 depending upon a large number of variables. But 4 is a good overall rule of thumb.

How Roads Fail... And Why They’re Set To Get Worse

Road transport produces tonnes of emissions, making it a driver of climate change. It is also one of the sectors most susceptible to the effects of climate change.

www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Equivalent Single Axle Load – Pavement Interactive

Free online knowledge for the paving industry

pavementinteractive.org

No, I'm not reading your articles. I have no reason to, I did road maintenance for a short time. 90% of roads were never designed for heavy truck traffic or the volume of traffic seen daily, local roads are mostly paved over goat paths with little to zero base under them most dont bither to folkow best practices in repairs either, the freeze thaw cycle kills roads faster then any amount of trucks running over them.
Besides that, you completely missed the point if what I said. Everything should be proportional. Heavy trucks use more fuel and pay more taxes and cost exponentially more to register. So yes, they are paying for the "damage" they do to the roads. It's about time evs do as well.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

As a city council member and water system operator I'm familiar with infrastructure too... But I'm not afraid to read the research in the field and in fact I'd never have gotten our failed water system replaced without reading the research. If you want to stay uninformed that's your problem, but don't expect your opinions to be taken seriously.

 

[jmodge]

No, I'm not reading your articles. I have no reason to, I did road maintenance for a short time. 90% of roads were never designed for heavy truck traffic or the volume of traffic seen daily, local roads are mostly paved over goat paths with little to zero base under them most dont bither to folkow best practices in repairs either, the freeze thaw cycle kills roads faster then any amount of trucks running over them.
Besides that, you completely missed the point if what I said. Everything should be proportional. Heavy trucks use more fuel and pay more taxes and cost exponentially more to register. So yes, they are paying for the "damage" they do to the roads. It's about time evs do as well.

I don’t read his articles either, very biased, as if there is a monetary stake in the subject.

 

[dieseldonato]

As a city council member and water system operator I'm familiar with infrastructure too... But I'm not afraid to read the research in the field and in fact I'd never have gotten our failed water system replaced without reading the research. If you want to stay uninformed that's your problem, but don't expect your opinions to be taken seriously.

Sorry, I can't take non credible sources seriously, posted by someone with a one sided agenda makes them even less credible. If thats considered research these days then I guess I'd rather be "uninformed." Our state does comprehensive. Multi year testing for best practices. Road wear conditions. New products and procedures. Even though I have limited direct dealing with the townships road crew anymore, I still attend p-sats for their seminars. Actually during one of them I was quite embarrassed. It was on the modern use of road fabrics. The gentleman presenting it was part of a 10 year study on fabric uses on primary and secondary roads. At the time the township didn't use any fabrics and we have a few roads that join then next township that started using fabrics. The case study road was one that has a chicken farm, and mulch/ landscape depot on it. Sees higher thennaverage heavy truck traffic for a secondary road. During the study both roads were over layed twice, my township used standard 19.5mm, with a 6mm top. The other township used fabric then 19.5, top coated with 6mm. Second paving @5 years we did a single course of 6mm tops. Other township did another course of fabric and 6mm tops. The pictures were enough to make anyone believe the fabric tied the road together and gave better wear characteristics.
That's real research. Not something off forbs, touting the things we've learned already.
As I said, our roads were never designed for the heavy traffic, and never designed for the amount of traffic seen today. There's no real dispropotinal amount that heavy trucks pay in taxes, fees and registration vs a passenger car or light truck. And it's side stepping the issue that ev's arnt taxed in any sort of way to help with their part of the damage they cause.

 

[turbobrick240]

Sorry, I can't take non credible sources seriously, posted by someone with a one sided agenda makes them even less credible. If thats considered research these days then I guess I'd rather be "uninformed." Our state does comprehensive. Multi year testing for best practices. Road wear conditions. New products and procedures. Even though I have limited direct dealing with the townships road crew anymore, I still attend p-sats for their seminars. Actually during one of them I was quite embarrassed. It was on the modern use of road fabrics. The gentleman presenting it was part of a 10 year study on fabric uses on primary and secondary roads. At the time the township didn't use any fabrics and we have a few roads that join then next township that started using fabrics. The case study road was one that has a chicken farm, and mulch/ landscape depot on it. Sees higher thennaverage heavy truck traffic for a secondary road. During the study both roads were over layed twice, my township used standard 19.5mm, with a 6mm top. The other township used fabric then 19.5, top coated with 6mm. Second paving @5 years we did a single course of 6mm tops. Other township did another course of fabric and 6mm tops. The pictures were enough to make anyone believe the fabric tied the road together and gave better wear characteristics.
That's real research. Not something off forbs, touting the things we've learned already.
As I said, our roads were never designed for the heavy traffic, and never designed for the amount of traffic seen today. There's no real dispropotinal amount that heavy trucks pay in taxes, fees and registration vs a passenger car or light truck. And it's side stepping the issue that ev's arnt taxed in any sort of way to help with their part of the damage they cause.

Well, that's disappointing. You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, but if you have to fall back on ad hominem attacks rather than consider engineering and science....

 

[jmodge]

Well, that's disappointing. You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, but if you have to fall back on ad hominem attacks rather than consider engineering and science....

So what type of attack do you call this?

 

[dieseldonato]

Well, that's disappointing. You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, but if you have to fall back on ad hominem attacks rather than consider engineering and science....

Sorry, it's not an attack. Your latest posts try to shift the blame for bad/antiquated road construction off on heavy trucks and divert the need for evs to be taken accordingly. There are numerous studies from federal and state level agencies, and third party engineering firms that clearly say our road infrastructure was never designed for the weight or traffic volume. Plenty of states are taking steps to make the roads better. I do not subscribe to the notion that heavy trucks are not paying their fair share of raod tax, and add ev are not paying there fair share. Whatever scheme the government comes up with to make up for this loss of money towards road maintenance needs to be equal to the "damages" any other vehicle would cause. Sole blame is not on heavy trucks, and they pay much more into the road tax system then any ev does, which is also a terrible comparison.

 

[J_dude]

So what type of attack do you call this?

Ooh the irony

 

[oilhammer]

The taxes levied for OTR trucks is pretty low:

Office of Highway Policy Information - Policy | Federal Highway Administration (dot.gov)

Given the maximum is only $550, and the average annual mileage is around 50k miles, I'd say they are getting a bargain. But obviously taxes collected in other ways (fuel being one) is going to mean they pay more... but we ALL end up paying for it one way or the other.

But, that may add up to quite a bit given just how many of them there are on the road, which sucks because a rail system is better in almost every regard but the rail companies cannot seem to play nice with one another, so giant semi trucks all over the place has become the norm.

 

[jmodge]

I agree that use of the rail system would help alleviate traffic damage. I’ve been of the opinion that the public’s hunger for immediate fulfillment, as well as business catering to that hunger for profit, had a lot to do with the truck rather than rail as a means of delivery.
It’s lead to some scary characters aiming heavy rigs down the road in a hurry

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Surprisingly, UPS still ships a lot of packages by rail. Their transit times rival FedEx in most cases, who doesn't use rail.

 

[dieseldonato]

The taxes levied for OTR trucks is pretty low:

Office of Highway Policy Information - Policy | Federal Highway Administration (dot.gov)

Given the maximum is only $550, and the average annual mileage is around 50k miles, I'd say they are getting a bargain. But obviously taxes collected in other ways (fuel being one) is going to mean they pay more... but we ALL end up paying for it one way or the other.

But, that may add up to quite a bit given just how many of them there are on the road, which sucks because a rail system is better in almost every regard but the rail companies cannot seem to play nice with one another, so giant semi trucks all over the place has become the norm.

Class 8 truck registration costs $664.00(21001-26000 lbs) per year and class 25 costs $2764.00 per year (79001-80000lbs.) In PA. Vs a passenger car/ station wagon (suv) at $45.00 per year. The bulk of these fees alone are supposed to go to raod maintenance.
Pa did a great job of bumping up fuel taxes recently.
Gasoline/gasohol is at $0.576 per gallon
Undyed diesel/ kerosene is at $0.741 per gallon.
Assuming the 50k average miles per truck at 6mpg they will burn 8,333.33 gallons a year, taxed at $6,174.75.
Using my tdi as an example, last year I put just over 12k miles on it. Averaged 44 mpg last year. 279.06 gallons of diesel through it. $206.78 in fuel taxes. Even if I put 50k miles on it the road tax would have been $842.04. It's proportional.
I do 100% agree rail is much better/ efficient form of moving goods, we should really be looking to invest more in it.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

I’m a civil engineer who did road construction and maintenance for 34 years. I agree that most non designated highways were never designed nor constructed for the weight and traffic that they carry. That has to be done in the original construction phase. Moving on, my state passed a law that requires all hybrids, phevs, and EVs to pay an extra $ 150 tag fee tied to the inflation rate, so currently about $200 a year. State gasoline taxes were last increased in 1987 and federal gas taxes were last increased in 1994 neither of which were pegged to inflation. Edit. I just got my license tag bill and the current "hybrid fee" is $172.00 for this year.

 

[turbobrick240]

The secondary/tertiary road that I live on was just paved 10 years ago. Part of it is still gravel/dirt and a godawful mess this time of year. When they paved my section they raised the grade by about a foot with good quality gravel. They did it right, but it's still not designed for lots of heavy trucking traffic. Almost all of the traffic related wear is from logging trucks and dump trucks. Quite a bit of dump truck traffic, and fully loaded those are often ~60klb spread over only three axles. One of those dump trucks is equivalent to thousands of 4k lb vehicles in terms of wear.