real world EVs review

[tikal]

If other EV manufacturers do not do their fair share of building reliable charging stations in a timely manner, the EV growth will continue to be linear and slow in my view.

 

[turbobrick240]

There's really no reason that it has to be the auto mfrs that build out the charging networks. Though Tesla is clearly doing a great job of it. I can't remember the last time I filled up my Golf at a VW gas station.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Problem is that much like the rest of the EV ecosystem, charging stations require massive public subsidies so there may never be enough built to meet the demand.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

There's really no reason that it has to be the auto mfrs that build out the charging networks. Though Tesla is clearly doing a great job of it. I can't remember the last time I filled up my Golf at a VW gas station.

If companies could see a profitable economic model for building charging stations, for sure they would be building them. But as posted above, the way they are viable is with public subsidies. And if private companies built stations without government support, I bet EV drivers would not like the charging costs.

Why don't energy providers build charging stations? They have the supply structure in place.

 

[turbobrick240]

The govt provides massive subsidies to the oil conglomerates that own many of the gas stations- interesting that there doesn't seem to be much griping about that. Anyhow, there will be profitable models for charging stations, no doubt about it. The overhead costs are far less than gas stations. The argument that they can't be profitable will be obviously ridiculous looking back in a decade from now.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I knew when I posted I was going to hear about oil company subsidies. Anyone have examples?

 

[turbobrick240]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/15/climate/tax-breaks-oil-gas-us.html

 

[dieseldonato]

The only thing we'll be looking back on in a decade is how stupid we look for pushing tech that the market doesn't want, with a grid that can't support it, and that's not nearly as clean or green as it claims.

 

[jmodge]

The only thing we'll be looking back on in a decade is how stupid we look for pushing tech that the market doesn't want, with a grid that can't support it, and that's not nearly as clean or green as it claims.

No reason to wait

 

[turbobrick240]

I think we'll have an interesting perspective on a whole lot of things in a decade. More so in a couple.

 

[J_dude]

Yeah, if we're all still alive...

 

[turbobrick240]

Zooming out over time almost always gives a better perspective. Look at MLK Jr. for instance- at the time of his assassination probably half of the country saw him as a troublemaker. Today most of the country has a much fuller appreciation of the greatness of the man.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I think the tax breaks that oil companies receive pale in comparison to the cash given to EV industry participants. Apples and oranges.

 

[turbobrick240]

Well, if EV subsidies are an issue that really rankles you, you can always get involved in politics. At least one of this year's presidential candidates would like to eliminate them.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

The problem with the EV subsidies is that most all of us pay for them with our taxes but few of us can afford a new EV or have charging available so we can use an EV.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

I would actually like the EV tax credits go back to the way they were, limited to a certain amount to help companies set up manufacturing. The Musky One had already passed that stage and entered into the profit making stage. Which means that he can strangle the other EV babies in the crib . Monopolies are seldom a good thing.

 

[El Dobro]

If other EV manufacturers do not do their fair share of building reliable charging stations in a timely manner, the EV growth will continue to be linear and slow in my view.

 

[turbobrick240]

To be fair, the way they structured the domestic production and material requirements to get tighter and tighter over time has reduced the expanse of the tax credit substantially. I'd say less than half of EV models available here qualify presently. Tesla does benefit by being a US producer with the most American content, but eliminating the credit would hurt the other mfrs far more than Tesla. I think Tesla is probably the only one capable of making a profit without subsidies at this stage. I can totally sympathize with the distaste for Musk, but that shouldn't cloud your vision completely when it comes to Tesla as a company. Though his antics have led me to divest recently.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

My nephew just bought a RAV 4 hybrid. It is black on black and he is buying a black license plate. With the low price of gas and the terrible non Tesla EV charging situation locally I can’t blame him. I wonder how long before his wife wrecks it.

 

[oilhammer]

... I can totally sympathize with the distaste for Musk, but that shouldn't cloud your vision completely when it comes to Tesla as a company. Though his antics have led me to divest recently.

So you DID have to take down your framed picture of Elon over your mantle then... I figured as much. Getting a little too "right wing" for you, eh?

 

[El Dobro]

I wanted a Bolt with Super Cruise and Bose, so I bought a new EUV Premier, with a sticker price of $38,240. No sales tax on new or used EVs in NJ, so I saved $2533 there. I just got under the wire for an instant state rebate for $4000, so I was down to $34,240. The federal tax incentive of $7500 brought it down to $26,740. The dealer gave me $5000 for my Spark, which brought the price to $21,740. Of course I took advantage of the programs available. Since I already have a Level 2 charger, I took the $500 of free DC charging that was available with the purchase.

Back when I bought the 2009 "clean diesel", I took the federal incentive. After all was said and done, I'm surprised they didn't want the money back.

 

[jmodge]

I wanted a Bolt with Super Cruise and Bose, so I bought a new EUV Premier, with a sticker price of $38,240. No sales tax on new or used EVs in NJ, so I saved $2533 there. I just got under the wire for an instant state rebate for $4000, so I was down to $34,240. The federal tax incentive of $7500 brought it down to $26,740. The dealer gave me $5000 for my Spark, which brought the price to $21,740. Of course I took advantage of the programs available. Since I already have a Level 2 charger, I took the $500 of free DC charging that was available with the purchase.

Back when I bought the 2009 "clean diesel", I took the federal incentive. After all was said and done, I'm surprised they didn't want the money back.

I’m curious how hard they hit you for registrations. I’ve heard it’s signicant to make up for loss revenue from gas taxes.
Have you dealt with that yet?

 

[El Dobro]

I’m curious how hard they hit you for registrations. I’ve heard it’s signicant to make up for loss revenue from gas taxes.
Have you dealt with that yet?

Registration fees were $84 for two years and newer and $71.50 for older. Beginning July 1, it goes up to $250 for EVs, even though electricity is taxed and goes into the general fund. No real biggie, since I was already expecting it from Comrade Murphy and the mob. I did email Trenton though, asking what a$$ they pulled that figure out of, but no reply yet. The mob giveth and the mob taketh away.

They also added what amounts to .02 a year increase to the gas tax, but they didn't disclose this little tidbit. The gas tax is currently .423/gallon, but besides the increase, it depends on the revenue. If NJ doesn't pull in enough, it also increases, besides the annual increase. They get you coming and going.

 

[turbobrick240]

I thought they raised the gas tax by 18% along with the $250 EV penalty taking effect in July for NJ.

Edit- I see the 18% increase is over 5 years. Amounting to a 2¢/gal increase annually for the next 5 years.

 

[El Dobro]

I thought they raised the gas tax by 18% along with the $250 EV penalty taking effect in July for NJ.

Edit- I see the 18% increase is over 5 years. Amounting to a 2¢/gal increase annually for the next 5 years.

Plue $10 added to the EV fee per year, until it hits $290.

 

[dieseldonato]

Even fuel efficient gas vehicles will deliver that in liquid fuel taxes per year. All that is supposed to go straight back into the road or equipment for maintaining the roads. The electric tax doesn't come close to making up for that. Even European countries figured that out already. I think it is Britain that is going to separate meters for the house and ev charger.
While I'm never in favor of more/new taxes, I'm am a big proponent of everyone thats on the road pays their fair share. I personally think this should apply to anyone who uses a public road for transportation of any sort. Including Amish buggies and bicyclists.

 

[turbobrick240]

It'll probably be baked into the electricity rates after more than half of new car sales are EVs.

 

[El Dobro]

I have no problem with paying extra, as long as it's equitable. I doubt a Fiat 500e is tearing up as much road as a Ford F-150 Lightning, but NJ doesn't differentiate between the two.

NJ is charging an extra $166 on the registration for EVs. Take that and divide it by the current gas tax of .423/gal and it comes out to a little more than 393, so that means they're assuming an EV is using a 393 gallon equivalent in electric a year, I guess.

 

[turbobrick240]

It's kind of tough to make everything completely equitable. A 80k lb semi causes a heck of a lot more wear to the road surface than 4 or 5 passes from a 3k lb Jetta TDI. I do think they went a bit overboard with the additional $250-$290 in fees in NJ, though. They ought to factor in the reduced noise and air pollution.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

It's not hard to price road wear from vehicles, but it's much more difficult to accurately price any pollution improvements from EVs.