real world EVs review

[jmodge]

I agree that use of the rail system would help alleviate traffic damage. I’ve been of the opinion that the public’s hunger for immediate fulfillment, as well as business catering to that hunger for profit, had a lot to do with the truck rather than rail as a means of delivery.
It’s lead to some scary characters aiming heavy rigs down the road in a hurry

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Surprisingly, UPS still ships a lot of packages by rail. Their transit times rival FedEx in most cases, who doesn't use rail.

 

[dieseldonato]

The taxes levied for OTR trucks is pretty low:

Office of Highway Policy Information - Policy | Federal Highway Administration (dot.gov)

Given the maximum is only $550, and the average annual mileage is around 50k miles, I'd say they are getting a bargain. But obviously taxes collected in other ways (fuel being one) is going to mean they pay more... but we ALL end up paying for it one way or the other.

But, that may add up to quite a bit given just how many of them there are on the road, which sucks because a rail system is better in almost every regard but the rail companies cannot seem to play nice with one another, so giant semi trucks all over the place has become the norm.

Class 8 truck registration costs $664.00(21001-26000 lbs) per year and class 25 costs $2764.00 per year (79001-80000lbs.) In PA. Vs a passenger car/ station wagon (suv) at $45.00 per year. The bulk of these fees alone are supposed to go to raod maintenance.
Pa did a great job of bumping up fuel taxes recently.
Gasoline/gasohol is at $0.576 per gallon
Undyed diesel/ kerosene is at $0.741 per gallon.
Assuming the 50k average miles per truck at 6mpg they will burn 8,333.33 gallons a year, taxed at $6,174.75.
Using my tdi as an example, last year I put just over 12k miles on it. Averaged 44 mpg last year. 279.06 gallons of diesel through it. $206.78 in fuel taxes. Even if I put 50k miles on it the road tax would have been $842.04. It's proportional.
I do 100% agree rail is much better/ efficient form of moving goods, we should really be looking to invest more in it.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

I’m a civil engineer who did road construction and maintenance for 34 years. I agree that most non designated highways were never designed nor constructed for the weight and traffic that they carry. That has to be done in the original construction phase. Moving on, my state passed a law that requires all hybrids, phevs, and EVs to pay an extra $ 150 tag fee tied to the inflation rate, so currently about $200 a year. State gasoline taxes were last increased in 1987 and federal gas taxes were last increased in 1994 neither of which were pegged to inflation. Edit. I just got my license tag bill and the current "hybrid fee" is $172.00 for this year.

 

[turbobrick240]

The secondary/tertiary road that I live on was just paved 10 years ago. Part of it is still gravel/dirt and a godawful mess this time of year. When they paved my section they raised the grade by about a foot with good quality gravel. They did it right, but it's still not designed for lots of heavy trucking traffic. Almost all of the traffic related wear is from logging trucks and dump trucks. Quite a bit of dump truck traffic, and fully loaded those are often ~60klb spread over only three axles. One of those dump trucks is equivalent to thousands of 4k lb vehicles in terms of wear.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

The secondary/tertiary road that I live on was just paved 10 years ago. Part of it is still gravel/dirt and a godawful mess this time of year. When they paved my section they raised the grade by about a foot with good quality gravel. They did it right, but it's still not designed for lots of heavy trucking traffic. Almost all of the traffic related wear is from logging trucks and dump trucks. Quite a bit of dump truck traffic, and fully loaded those are often ~60klb spread over only three axles. One of those dump trucks is equivalent to thousands of 4k lb vehicles in terms of wear.

No you have to properly compact the dirt underneath, assuming that it isn't unstable muck , then provide proper drainage. The gravel would be better if it is crushed limestone compacted with a vibratory steel wheel roller. Unless your law enforcement is Johnny on the spot, the log trucks could easily be 10 to 30 thousand pounds over legal weight limit.

 

[turbobrick240]

No you have to properly compact the dirt underneath, assuming that it isn't unstable muck , then provide proper drainage. The gravel would be better if it is crushed limestone compacted with a vibratory steel wheel roller. Unless your law enforcement is Johnny on the spot, the log trucks could easily be 10 to 30 thousand pounds over legal weight limit.

They did it properly. First they graded off the top foot of gravel mix and hauled that away. Then they brought in compactors and rollers and laid down sub-base and base in 6" lifts, compacting each layer as it should be. Finally they laid down a nice thick layer of asphalt. It's held up very well despite the relatively low traffic of heavy trucks (and all traffic). You must be familiar with the Fourth power rule. A 60k lb dump truck with three axles has ~20k lb on each axle. A 4k car has ~2k lb per axle. 20/2 raised to the fourth power is 10,000x the impact per axle. Multiplied by 3/2= about 13,000 times the wear. That's why road engineers often cite passenger vehicle traffic as essentially being a non-factor in road wear.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Turbobrick240 is right, I'm a retired trucker and have followed the road wear research for years. The data is good- Way back in the 50s the Feds actually ran test trucks for years to gauge road wear and MN DOT has been doing similar research at the MNRoad lab since. The scientists agree on the 4th power rule and the rapid wear heavy single axle loads cause vs. tandems. And thanks to the 4th power rule, a truck with more axles and lower average axle weight is actually easier on the roads than a standard 5 axle tractor trailer rig. For the long haul trucking industry this is a huge subsidy provided by we taxpayers as they often run 200,000 and more miles a year, on the other hand I know farmers who don't even run their trucks 10,000 miles a year and they're overpaying the same registration fees. Suffice to say, actually charging long haul trucking companies for the road wear they cause would level the transportation playing field and drive long distance transportation more to the railroads and barges.

 

[Zak99b5]

Let’s say, hypothetically, that the gummint was able to charge long haul trucking companies appropriately for the load/wear that they place on roads.

That would increase shipping costs, which would be handed down to the consumer.

It might mean a bit less truck traffic, but even if rail were used more, you still need trucks to bring goods from the depots to warehouses and eventually stores.

There would be more tax revenue, ostensibly for infrastructure maintenance, but they certainly wouldn’t lower reg fees or fuel taxes on private motorists. And I can’t imagine they’d spend more on infrastructure than they already do.

So the end result is John Q. Public would only notice a hike in prices.

 

[Lightflyer1]

John Q. Public is always the one who bears the costs. Either directly or indirectly.

 

[Zak99b5]

John Q. Public is always the one who bears the costs. Either directly or indirectly.

Yes he does. Previously, the public library budget in Albany was part of the city’s general budget. About a decade ago, they decided to carve the library out of the city budget and have it collect its own taxes. Guess if there was corresponding decrease in the city tax when library started taxing us.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Guess who is paying for the new Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore. It won't be the ship owners or operators, at least for the most part. They are already trying to limit their liability to $40 mil or so, even though it is very clear they brought it down.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Guess who is paying for the new Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore. It won't be the ship owners or operators, at least for the most part. They are already trying to limit their liability to $40 mil or so, even though it is very clear they brought it down.

That number is just an opening salvo. The shipping company and the insurers (and reinsurers) are trying to limit their exposure. No one believes the settlement will be limited to $40M. And resolving the litigation will take years. In the meantime the debris has to be cleaned up and the bridge rebuilt.

 

[Zak99b5]

That number is just an opening salvo. The shipping company and the insurers (and reinsurers) are trying to limit their exposure. No one believes the settlement will be limited to $40M. And resolving the litigation will take years. In the meantime the debris has to be cleaned up and the bridge rebuilt.

I’m guessing heavy trucks might be involved….

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

That bridge is essential to the region because any hazardous materials cannot travel through the two tunnels that go through Baltimore.

 

[Lightflyer1]

They might be able to limit their exposure. Don't know about the article here but they are trying. I agree that it needs cleaned up and rebuilt. But we will be on the hook for it no matter what. Even if we do get it done using tax payer money and the shipping entities are eventually held liable, we will still never see the money paid in by taxpayers returned ever.

Could ‘Titanic law’ protect owner of ship in Baltimore bridge crash?

The owner has filed a petition in federal court to limit its liability in the incident

www.independent.co.uk

 

[turbobrick240]

It'll be interesting to see what kind of bridge design they replace it with. Some sort of suspension bridge would be more aestheticly pleasing, imo. Whatever type, I bet it will have more substantial structures protecting the supports.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

They might be able to limit their exposure. Don't know about the article here but they are trying. I agree that it needs cleaned up and rebuilt. But we will be on the hook for it no matter what. Even if we do get it done using tax payer money and the shipping entities are eventually held liable, we will still never see the money paid in by taxpayers returned ever.

The bridge is part of the interstate highway system. Interstates are largely, if not entirely, funded with federal money. That this bridge collapsed and the federal government is funding replacement I put in the category of "it's a big country, stuff happens."

 

[Lightflyer1]

Stuff does happen, but doesn't mean you can destroy infrastructure and not be held liable for the cost. This didn't just happen. There is a reason. Not like some freak wind just blew it off course and there was nothing they could do.

 

[oilhammer]

Yeah, who do I send the bill to for my homeowner's insurance rates that went up after a bunch of nut jobs crashed planes into buildings in 2001?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I'm sure the litigation will be interesting. The courts will have to determine, among other things, whether or not the shipping company is responsible for a mechanical failure. I wouldn't be surprised if their liability is somehow limited.

 

[Lightflyer1]

The article I linked to seems to say that they do have some method to limit liability. Still the majority is going to come out of the taxpayer's pocket who was in no way involved with any of this.

 

[Zak99b5]

Just add it to the federal debt. A drop in the proverbial bucket.

 

[tikal]

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/04/ford-to-delay-all-electric-suv-to-focus-on-hybrid-vehicles.html?

 

[Iowa TDI]

I pay next to nothing for tags for my 2006 F350 that weighs 8000lbs, almost $200 a year for my 2014 TDI that weighs nothing, $50 a year for 2013 Honda CRV that weighs nothing, $650 year for 2022 Tesla Model 3(4200lbs) and over $600 a year for wifes 2021 Tesla Model Y(4200lbs). There is an extra EV fee tacked on to the Teslas. There is no rhyme or reason for the fees that are charged. As for the EV conversation, there is Tesla, and then there is everyone else trying to be Tesla. Tesla does 1 thing, EVs. All other manufacturers are at a 15 year disadvantage. They will never catch up. If the government would quit mandating the EV crap then those automakers could go back to making ICE vehicles. That's what they are good at. Putting an electric motor in a ICE chassis does not make an EV. Tesla sells direct to consumer and has a $0 advertising budget. Until other manufacturers figure out what Musk has, they will struggle. I am not a Tesla fanboy believe it or not, but the cars are amazing with what they are capable of in all weather conditions. The safety of them is 2nd to none and I have hurt lots of "fast" cars' feelings in spirited driving events. I don't think they are for everyone, but unless you have owned one, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Just my opinion, yours may vary.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

You sure sound like a TSLA fan...

I live just a bit north of you in southwest Minnesota and electric cars are not real useful here- Charging infrastructure is pretty thin and cold weather range decrease is a factor too. TSLA are totally useless because the nearest service facility is 180 miles away. So if I could afford an EV and it fit my needs, it would be a Ford or GM product because several of their dealers within 50 miles of me service EVs.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

You sure sound like a TSLA fan...

I live just a bit north of you in southwest Minnesota and electric cars are not real useful here- Charging infrastructure is pretty thin and cold weather range decrease is a factor too. TSLA are totally useless because the nearest service facility is 180 miles away. So if I could afford an EV and it fit my needs, it would be a Ford or GM product because several of their dealers within 50 miles of me service EVs.

Pretty much the situation in my state less the cold. Within 20 miles of the same range to a service center also. Add a few other reasons and it’s why I have a VW ID4 instead of a Tesla Model Y.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

That's what they are good at. Putting an electric motor in a ICE chassis does not make an EV.

Auto manufacturers haven't done this for a while, with a few exceptions. Most new car platforms that are EV were designed for EV or for both EV and ICE.

Tesla sells direct to consumer and has a $0 advertising budget.

I bet they do have a budget. At minimum, they maintain a web site. I bet there are other marketing and sales activities going on as well.

Honestly, you do sound like a bit of a fanboy. Tesla makes one of, if not the best EVs in the market. But it's far from perfect, just like most cars.

 

[Iowa TDI]

Auto manufacturers haven't done this for a while, with a few exceptions. Most new car platforms that are EV were designed for EV or for both EV and ICE.

I bet they do have a budget. At minimum, they maintain a web site. I bet there are other marketing and sales activities going on as well.

Honestly, you do sound like a bit of a fanboy. Tesla makes one of, if not the best EVs in the market. But it's far from perfect, just like most cars.

Call me a fanboy but I don't see an EV in your sig so you wouldn't know what is good or not with any EV unless you have owned one. If I told you what was so great or crappy about a Jetta, having never owned one, do my words really carry any weight with you? Not really. They do not advertise and everyone has a website. Have you ever seen a Tesla commercial, ever? Ford spends billions with a B on advertising as do other manufacturer. You the consumer pay for that in the price of the vehicles. Most new EVs are designed off of a variant of another model car ICE car they have. There are very few "new" designs. I've been in MN many times. Had no issues getting anywhere. Not sure what an EV with less range would do for you if you claim to have a small charging infrastructure, but I guess that's your prerogative. I don't need a Tesla service station close. In 140k miles I have rotated tires and added washer fluid. They will also come right to your house. You just type your problem into your phone, its called Tesla mobile service. Lots of "I heards" and "my buddy told me" stuff abut EVs out there. Very few real world experience. Yes I do like my Teslas but as with any product that is good, there is lots of unwarranted hate. But I don't like their customer service during the sale. But I think you will find fault with anything if you look hard enough.
As for the ID4 I talked to the owner of one the other day. I like them, sharp cars but not much of a charging infrastructure and not much range. Once again, EVs are not for everyone but its hard to pass judgement without first experiencing ownership.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I've driven a bunch of Teslas, know a number of people who own them, including a co-worker here at IDParts.

Since you think you have to own a car to have an opinion about it, I'll share his: Overall he likes the car, feels it's a big step ahead of the ID.4 he owned prior to the Model 3. Charging infrastructure is key to his happy ownership and use: it was a major weakness of the ID.4. And Tesla has a big advantage over VW in efficiency, although he recently told me that Rivian now has superior motor tech to Tesla.

He has (not surprisingly) owned a number of TDIs, and feels by comparison the Model 3 feels heavy (because it is), road noise is higher than it should be, and the ride is not as compliant as it could be. Steering is completely without feel. He wouldn't, nor have I heard anyone else describe the Model 3 as a driver's car. He feels his M-B E320 CDI, or my BMW 335d are superior to the Model 3 in that respect. Acceleration isn't everything.

And of course he has to overlook the spotty fit and finish. Durability is an unknown sine he's not had it very long, but he's not concerned about it. People seem to have good experiences there, overall.

Don't get me wrong: both he and I think the Model 3 is a very good car, and probably the best EV value in the market right now. But in the pantheon of automobiles, it's not the best ever.

There's no doubt that VW TDIs have their flaws. I've been driving my B4 Passat a fair amount lately and I can't help but think most people would find that car totally unsatisfactory. It's old, slow, and loud. But I enjoy it, warts and all.