real world EVs review

IndigoBlueWagon

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I will likely be buying a 2015 Bettle TDI 6spd. The most environmentally friendly thing otherwise, and honestly I still might do it, because I can cash buy one of those for 20 or under, and be done with it. Buying 50K+ cars is painful, and I do not want to keep in that rat race.
You might find this interesting:

Around minute 15 he talks about why buying an emissions controlled used diesel may be more environmentally friendly than a new EV. And much more hassle free than an EV if you drive distances.
 

gulfcoastguy

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Kyle is best known for his EV reviews but he actually reviews all types of vehicles. One thing to remember is that he is based in Fort Collins Colorado, a very cold and high altitude part of the country. There are large swaths of the US that don’t have to deal with subzero temperatures. I imagine a lot of diesel drivers in his area that have to use block heaters.
Regardless of all that when I was at ElectrifyAmerica last night only 2 out of 6 chargers were fully functional, It is also an EA that must be used if you are driving from Los Angeles to Jacksonville Florida on I 10. It’s too far between stations to skip it . In short it’s ElectrifyAmerica’s lack of maintenance and quality control that is the problem.
 

Daemon64

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Kyle is best known for his EV reviews but he actually reviews all types of vehicles. One thing to remember is that he is based in Fort Collins Colorado, a very cold and high altitude part of the country. There are large swaths of the US that don’t have to deal with subzero temperatures. I imagine a lot of diesel drivers in his area that have to use block heaters.
Regardless of all that when I was at ElectrifyAmerica last night only 2 out of 6 chargers were fully functional, It is also an EA that must be used if you are driving from Los Angeles to Jacksonville Florida on I 10. It’s too far between stations to skip it . In short it’s ElectrifyAmerica’s lack of maintenance and quality control that is the problem.
Oh I recognize that the issues are the charge networks. But the cars are basically useless other than 100 mile radius vehicles w/o a reliable charge network. I also live in a fairly cold area... although not recently as cold as it used to be for sure as the jet stream has moved a bit. I ran my diesels w/o block heaters many days sub 0 Temps, on was -14f started right up... sounded angry but no issues.

I also recognize EA as probably the worst offender. But there are plenty of reports at other networks as well, just not as pronounced as EA.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I imagine a lot of diesel drivers in his area that have to use block heaters.
Why would altitude have an impact on an EV?

It's safe to say that, except for really severe cold (-30F and lower), no common rail diesel needs a heater.

And I've started my ALH after sitting all night at -25 without a problem.
 

tikal

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Today, right now, would you do an 500 mile road trip, in one day, with your family (four people) in a new 2023 EV with a maximum price of $35,000 (before tax incentives, no adding registration, etc.)?

Would you be willing to spend even more money to insist on an EV today for your family of four?
 

turbobrick240

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Most of the mechanics/shops with YouTube content I watch heartily do not recommend the modern diesels due to the emissions systems complexity and unreliability. I have several buddies with DPF/SCR equipped F250s, Sierras, and a Colorado that were all great trucks for a short time, but have become nightmarish money pits of endless visits to shops- pretty much all related to the emissions systems.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Most mechanics/shops with YouTube content don't know how to maintain or repair modern emissions controlled diesels, and like to badmouth them. They actually work fine, but not in all circumstances. They're like the other side of the coin of EVs. Local driving, short tips...bad. We have customers who use their CR TDIs for long haul driving and have zero problems. The corelation is pretty consistent.
 

Daemon64

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Today, right now, would you do an 500 mile road trip, in one day, with your family (four people) in a new 2023 EV with a maximum price of $35,000 (before tax incentives, no adding registration, etc.)?

Would you be willing to spend even more money to insist on an EV today for your family of four?
Given how the charging network has become over the last couple months, with the increase in demand from EVs, and the charging network in the state it is, and how unresponsive to customer issues like entire sites down or charging at best at 36kwh. Actual experiences of mine, absolutely not. It is not even bearable for the 240 mile trip to my MIL, car doesn't make that in 1 shot in winter, and the only station between here and there is EA and well, it has considerable problems as of late. Almost got stranded on thanksgiving, but instead had to wait almost 2hrs between queue and really slow charging before taking off, and only made it to the charger by her house w/ 4%. But like I'm also referring to a 54k vehicle and a 61k vehicle, and I'd take neither and just use a 20k or less lightly used diesel, until the networks get their stuff together. But thats just me. As I said above if things are like this when my lease is up: I'm buying a used TDI for cash, and not dealing with EVs for long distance trips until then. In the meantime we will likely still have 1 EV in the family for all our local & most of our instate trips.
 

turbobrick240

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Tesla just slashed their prices pretty significantly. A standard range (270 miles) Model 3 RWD with a LFP battery is now like $36,500 after the $7500 federal tax incentive. Less if you're in a state with it's own incentive. The only catch is you'd probably have to take delivery before March 20th? for that particular model because the battery is made in China.
 

turbobrick240

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You might find this interesting:

Around minute 15 he talks about why buying an emissions controlled used diesel may be more environmentally friendly than a new EV. And much more hassle free than an EV if you drive distances.
That was the first Harry's Garage video I've seen- seems like an interesting guy. He claims the high EV sales in the UK in December are due to manufacturers needing to meet CO2 standards(clearly doesn't apply to Tesla). Maybe he's right, but he doesn't say how the manufacturers manifest those sales. I assume they aren't just waving a wand. Are there steep discounts or some incentive offered at the end of the year? With Tesla taking the #1 and #2 spots for UK EV sales in December, his theory doesn't sound great.

 
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El Dobro

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Kyle is best known for his EV reviews but he actually reviews all types of vehicles. One thing to remember is that he is based in Fort Collins Colorado, a very cold and high altitude part of the country. There are large swaths of the US that don’t have to deal with subzero temperatures. I imagine a lot of diesel drivers in his area that have to use block heaters.
Regardless of all that when I was at ElectrifyAmerica last night only 2 out of 6 chargers were fully functional, It is also an EA that must be used if you are driving from Los Angeles to Jacksonville Florida on I 10. It’s too far between stations to skip it . In short it’s ElectrifyAmerica’s lack of maintenance and quality control that is the problem.
And we all know who runs them. ;)
 

turbobrick240

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This guy does a pretty good deep dive into various network charging infrastructure:

 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Today, right now, would you do an 500 mile road trip, in one day, with your family (four people) in a new 2023 EV with a maximum price of $35,000 (before tax incentives, no adding registration, etc.)?

Would you be willing to spend even more money to insist on an EV today for your family of four?
This question got me thinking as I was clearing snow from my driveway yesterday. When our kids were younger we traveled to an annual family gathering in Litchfield SC each August. It's about a 1000 mile drive. We usually would break it into two days. Most of the trips were made in our '94 Previa SC, which got about 25 MPG running at 75-80 with 5 people aboard.

What struck me in light of this conversation is I can't recall where or how often we bought fuel. We didn't use any Nav software (or something like a Garmin in those days), just a road atlas. But fueling was a non-issue, in access, time to fuel, and cost. I think that until EV road tripping can get to that level of convenience, most people aren't going to use EVs for road trips.

One other note: A colleague just traded his ID.4 for a hybrid SUV because they couldn't use the ID.4 reliably for trips to visit his wife's family in NJ, or for ski trips to Vermont. With two young kids the unpredictability of charging access and not having charging where they can access services for the kids caused too much worry about the trips. The lack of charging facilities in northern New England was also a big problem.
 
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Daemon64

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Tesla just slashed their prices pretty significantly. A standard range (270 miles) Model 3 RWD with a LFP battery is now like $36,500 after the $7500 federal tax incentive. Less if you're in a state with it's own incentive. The only catch is you'd probably have to take delivery before March 20th? for that particular model because the battery is made in China.
I really hope this wasn't aimed at me. I have LONG refused to support Tesla. Their closed loop system like apple systems, and their open fight on being able to get parts / right to repair is #1. #2 - Is poor build quality / fitment -- Which there are reports of it getting better, but then worse on other models so its really a crap shoot. #3 - Is legit elon musk -- If that guy knew how to keep his mouth shut, I wouldn't care about him like many other really smart CEO's, but as the owner of the company I refuse to support someone like him. So literally I could be destitute, without a vehicle, and if someone offered me a free tesla with everything paid, I'd still say no thank you.

That doesn't mean I don't see the merit in EVs. But I would literally buy a chevy silverado v8 gaser, or an F150 V8 gaser before I ever bought a Tesla.
 

turbobrick240

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I really hope this wasn't aimed at me. I have LONG refused to support Tesla. Their closed loop system like apple systems, and their open fight on being able to get parts / right to repair is #1. #2 - Is poor build quality / fitment -- Which there are reports of it getting better, but then worse on other models so its really a crap shoot. #3 - Is legit elon musk -- If that guy knew how to keep his mouth shut, I wouldn't care about him like many other really smart CEO's, but as the owner of the company I refuse to support someone like him. So literally I could be destitute, without a vehicle, and if someone offered me a free tesla with everything paid, I'd still say no thank you.

That doesn't mean I don't see the merit in EVs. But I would literally buy a chevy silverado v8 gaser, or an F150 V8 gaser before I ever bought a Tesla.
Nope, that was for general consumption by anybody here on the forum considering a new EV. I'm not pleased by Musk's antics over the last year or so either, but I'm able to separate the man from the vehicle. I've owned many VWs and Fords and haven't let their dirty laundry from the past hamper my vehicle selection. But I can understand how some feel the way you do. I can also understand your wanting to get out of the "rat race" of buying/leasing new $55k+ vehicles every two or three years.
 

turbobrick240

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Interesting take on EV's with lots of pictures of Wyoming wind farms:

I wouldn't consider a proposal to ban new EV sales in 2035 a prompt end. ;) That's just a handful of state legislators blowing smoke through political posturing anyhow. Zero chance Wyoming actually enacts that ban in 2035. Even if they passed that silliness this year, it would be repealed long before 2035.
 

Tin Man

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I wouldn't consider a proposal to ban new EV sales in 2035 a prompt end. ;) That's just a handful of state legislators blowing smoke through political posturing anyhow. Zero chance Wyoming actually enacts that ban in 2035. Even if they passed that silliness this year, it would be repealed long before 2035.
I guess you didn't read the article. They only let me read it once.
 

turbobrick240

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Yeah, it looks like Wyoming is well on its way to a modern, renewable energy economy. I'm not sure what those politicians are so nervous about. Maybe they just wanted the media attention.
 

Tin Man

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Yeah, it looks like Wyoming is well on its way to a modern, renewable energy economy. I'm not sure what those politicians are so nervous about. Maybe they just wanted the media attention.
Reading the whole article and comments may reveal a dislike of the negatives of full ev conversion/electrification, and it wasn't anything but a general statement, not a ruling, to make people think.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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It strikes me that we're posting on a site for diesel powered cars. Currently there are no diesel powered passenger cars for sale in the US, haven't been since 2018 or 2019. I'm pretty confident that a lot of people on this forum are unhappy that diesels have been legislated out of existence by the unreasonable emissions regulations imposed on them. And I think there are also groups of people who don't want to be told by the state of California, or by any other place, that they can no longer buy a car with an internal combustion engine. Maybe this is a situation were we have to restrict what's available for the greater good (stopping climate change) but I think people will fight it.
 

turbobrick240

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I think attitudes will shift as we approach 2035. There's a good chance California and Washington will kick the can further down the road if it doesn't look achievable in 8-10 years from now. But there's also a good chance that it will be achievable, and the public will largely be on board. Just look at the progress Europe has made in the last year as a result of Russia's invading Ukraine. Countries are realizing that energy independence is a critical matter of national security in addition to the environmental consequences of burning fossil fuels at a breakneck rate.
 

kjclow

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I am hoping that we have more and viable options for e-vehicles by 2035 but I doubt that any of that legislation passed today will be rolled back. Just does not seem to be how things are done out there in the government world.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Toyota's chairman has been criticized by his view, but I think manufacturers who are planting the flag to go all-electric will, as their self-imposed deadlines approach, will see the business logic in his view.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Our memories are so short... California already tried this sort of thing. It failed. Miserably. All it left us with is a bunch of useless electric S10s, Rangers, RAV4s, probably a handful of others, not to mention the EV1 as well as a bunch of other CA-only failures like hybrid Altimas and such.

Same time they banned the sale of new TDIs there, yet plenty were being brought in "used". That's what Harv was doing, he did it with trucks, too. And the funny thing is, California taxed the sales of NEW vehicles, but not used, so they also lost a giant pile of tax money in the process.
 

turbobrick240

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Toyota's chairman has been criticized by his view, but I think manufacturers who are planting the flag to go all-electric will, as their self-imposed deadlines approach, will see the business logic in his view.
I find it fascinating that Toyota, who led the world in vehicle hybridization, has straggled so far behind in pure electrics. Their best bet is to join forces with a company like BYD at this point, imo. The new '23 Prius looks interesting, though. Almost like the old Prius and a Model 3 had an offspring. 57 mpg on regular unleaded, and nearly 200 hp, not too shabby.
 
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Tin Man

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Toyota has always been conservative in their design philosophy. That's why they are considered reliable and boring but solid. The first Prius was still conservatively designed and executed, with Honda's hybrid the first one on the market.
 
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