Rawtek vs Buzzken Performance Gains

gfunk62

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Location
auburn
TDI
'13 jetta tdi
Hey guys, I just started doing some research on performance parts for my mk6 Jetta Sedan and figured I would come here for support. I tried to search though and hopefully I'm not restarting a thread that has been beaten to death.
My major question lies in the performance gain claims from these two manufacturers used in conjunction with malone tuning. So rawtek claims up to 70 HP and 150 foot-lbs of torque from their downpipe and midpipe while only going to stage 2 tuning (no aftermarket turbo involved). Here's where my confusion starts. Buzzken is advertised at fixmyvw.com in conjunction with a cr 170 turbo at stage 3 that would "change your 140 HP engine to a 185 hp engine" (I would assume both of which are measured at the crank with 140 being the stock crank HP?). Is rawtek known for lofty advertising (for example the claimed HP gains from their cold air intake?) Or maybe Buzzken is more conservative? I understand the difference in steel causing rawtek to be more expensive, but is it also less restrictive or performing some other kind of engineering miracles in terms of HP or TQ?
 

BuzzKen

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 16, 2011
Location
Markham, Ontario
TDI
'10 Touareg TDI, '09 335D, '10 X5D
I should let the general population speak here, but 2.5", 2.75", 3" will not make aaaaany power difference at this level. If anything, too large of an exhaust on a small stock turbo will exaggerate boost spikes which a CR ecu will adapt and tune out by reducing fuel.
 
Last edited:

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
It sounds like rawtek is being overly optimistic. By a pretty large margin. The 3" exhaust shouldn't be particularly advantageous until around 300 hp. Very few 2 L common rail tdi's come close that power. So far anyhow.
 

iamatt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Location
Rosharon, Texas
TDI
2014 Jetta 6 Speed manual
At the end of the day it's just pipe on a low powered car. I put on a buzzken and the install and fit was perfect. It comes with shiny tips and I exhaust wrapped the downpipe so I never even see the exhaust. Works fine.
 

gloaming

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Location
Port Fishington, Philadelphia
TDI
2010 Golf 6MT CR170 (Sold); 2004 R32 (not a TDI)
Just to clarify, rawtek's 70 Hp gain is at the crank and the cr 170 is 185 hp at the wheels. The size of the pipe doesn't matter much. The only difference between the two is cost and grade of stainless steel. The rawtek is T304 which won't get any rust. Neother of these brands of pipes will ever break, fail, or rust through. So the only difference is one will stay shinier longer and the other cost a few hundred dollars less. Your choice really.
 

gfunk62

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Location
auburn
TDI
'13 jetta tdi
Thanks for the quick responses guys, It's always nice to see vendors directly supporting the forums as well. I've heard great things about both rawtek and buzzken, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any information. Another thing i noticed was that if anything switching out the exhaust and turbo seem to increase the reliability of the car. I'm new to the diesel world but most everything I've read is that the factory exhaust is a timebomb due to the dpf issues and that if anything the stock turbo is undersized. Should I be aware of any other areas where maintenance would be increased outside of routine maintenance (increased wear on the dsg is understandable) if I go to stage three malone tuning? My tdi is my daily driver and I plan on keeping it for the long haul.
 

gloaming

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Location
Port Fishington, Philadelphia
TDI
2010 Golf 6MT CR170 (Sold); 2004 R32 (not a TDI)
Actually, the stock turbo is a great turbo. Lots of low end power. The larger the turbo, the later it spools. That being said, I LOVE my stage 3 cr170 (the smell of the exhaust is a little offensive now though). I wouldn't exactly say the DPF is a timebomb. If you don't baby the car you should have a nice and long turbo/DPF life.

Your main concerns are your HPFP and your intercooler icing in the winter. Head over to the Golf 6 subforum and familiarize yourself with both of those issues. Eliminating the EGR gets rid of the intercooler icing issue and swapping to a CP3 pump eliminates the HPFP worry. The CP3 pump is a relatively new thing for the TDI's (not new at all for the truck world) and is just starting to hit the market. The CP3 pump kit is 2micron's baby, so you can talk to him about or again check out the thread in the Golf 6 subforum.

EDIT: Oops, you're a Jetta. Sorry for saying golf, but I believe all of the above still applies. Have fun and happy reading!
 
Last edited:

BuzzKen

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 16, 2011
Location
Markham, Ontario
TDI
'10 Touareg TDI, '09 335D, '10 X5D
Thanks for the quick responses guys, It's always nice to see vendors directly supporting the forums as well. I've heard great things about both rawtek and buzzken, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any information. Another thing i noticed was that if anything switching out the exhaust and turbo seem to increase the reliability of the car. I'm new to the diesel world but most everything I've read is that the factory exhaust is a timebomb due to the dpf issues and that if anything the stock turbo is undersized. Should I be aware of any other areas where maintenance would be increased outside of routine maintenance (increased wear on the dsg is understandable) if I go to stage three malone tuning? My tdi is my daily driver and I plan on keeping it for the long haul.

Delete and enjoy. In my opinion the CR170 drives smoother and is far more reliable than the stock turbo, a great upgrade. Nothing else needed. The DSG tune lengthens dsg life in my opinion as well, it becomes so much smoother and happier, not that you need to worry about dsg reliability anyways.
 

theguytotrust

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Location
illinois
TDI
2014 jetta 2.0 tdi. 2013 passat 2.0 tdi
i have dealt with many people and many different experiences with Rawtek and Buzzken. Buzzken has a great product and so does Rawtek. Rawtek is a very heavy and solid product and the installation is not hard but it is not as easy as buzzken. with rawtek the flex connector is very stiff and doesn't really "flex" because it is a 3 part install, buzzen is a 2 part install and the flex connector is very flexible and works great! also on Rawtek the whole kit is 3" and if you are not going 3" all the way out the back then it goes back into a stock 2 1/2" muffler. buzzken keeps the stock exhaust size all throughout the system and the VW engineers spent time and money and tested and figured out how big the exhaust needs to be for that engine. also just for a reference i have a 5.9L dodge magnum with a 3 inch exhaust so does the little german turbo two liter engine really produce so much exhaust that it needs 3". in my opinion i would save money and go with buzzken and run that exhaust for the life of the vehicle! hope i helped thank you!
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
i have dealt with many people and many different experiences with Rawtek and Buzzken. Buzzken has a great product and so does Rawtek. Rawtek is a very heavy and solid product and the installation is not hard but it is not as easy as buzzken. with rawtek the flex connector is very stiff and doesn't really "flex" because it is a 3 part install, buzzen is a 2 part install and the flex connector is very flexible and works great! also on Rawtek the whole kit is 3" and if you are not going 3" all the way out the back then it goes back into a stock 2 1/2" muffler. buzzken keeps the stock exhaust size all throughout the system and the VW engineers spent time and money and tested and figured out how big the exhaust needs to be for that engine. also just for a reference i have a 5.9L dodge magnum with a 3 inch exhaust so does the little german turbo two liter engine really produce so much exhaust that it needs 3". in my opinion i would save money and go with buzzken and run that exhaust for the life of the vehicle! hope i helped thank you!
That's not quite right. The stock exhaust is more like 2.25"(it's metric). The buzzken midpipe comes with a reducer that matches it to the stock exhaust. I assume the rawtek does as well.
 

YukonLT

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Location
N/A
TDI
2010 Golf TDI 6MT
Go with the Buzzken exhaust, and be happy :)
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
I also recommend the 2.5" BuzzKen exhaust. But get it with the diesel catalyst. That'll really help keep the offensive diesel smell to a minimum.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
...or delete everything and add a bottle resonator. Love the sound.
 

Rawtek

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Chute A Blondeau
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI
Well, you know what they say, better late than never.

Just to set the record straight on a few points brought up.

We agree that the 3" pipe isn't strictly necessary unless you are pushing 300hp. That being said, it doesn't rob power anyways. The numbers we have on our website are straight from a Dynapack hub dyno at dynodoc.ca. No inflated or lofty advertising. We spent a lot of time and energy working with Mark Malone to make sure our parts and his tune worked seamlessly together.

As for the 304/409 debate, well we simply want to offer the best out there, so we use the best materials. Having spent many years in the industry, starting with custom exhausts, made to order, we found that there is certainly enough like minded people out there, who want to leave nothing to chance. That's why we will continue to use 304 even if it makes our parts slightly more expensive.

The three piece design, from a manufacturing standpoint, makes it far more efficient when offering different midpipe configurations. We have had no complaints about the design.

Lastly, we embrace friendly competition, and fully admit that Ken over at Buzzken not only has good parts, but delivers good service.The market is plenty big enough, and competition makes for better service and parts offered to the customer. We just like ours better :D
 

GTOguy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
'13 Beetle TDI 6spd, Rawtek/Malone 2.0 Eco
Well, I just opened my order from Rawtek (like 5 minutes ago) and it looks like it's worth every penny it cost. No regrets here although i'm sure Buzzken's is very nice I'm one of those guys that like the very best if I plan on keeping the car for a long time.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Well, you know what they say, better late than never.

Just to set the record straight on a few points brought up.

We agree that the 3" pipe isn't strictly necessary unless you are pushing 300hp. That being said, it doesn't rob power anyways. The numbers we have on our website are straight from a Dynapack hub dyno at dynodoc.ca. No inflated or lofty advertising. We spent a lot of time and energy working with Mark Malone to make sure our parts and his tune worked seamlessly together.

As for the 304/409 debate, well we simply want to offer the best out there, so we use the best materials. Having spent many years in the industry, starting with custom exhausts, made to order, we found that there is certainly enough like minded people out there, who want to leave nothing to chance. That's why we will continue to use 304 even if it makes our parts slightly more expensive.

The three piece design, from a manufacturing standpoint, makes it far more efficient when offering different midpipe configurations. We have had no complaints about the design.

Lastly, we embrace friendly competition, and fully admit that Ken over at Buzzken not only has good parts, but delivers good service.The market is plenty big enough, and competition makes for better service and parts offered to the customer. We just like ours better :D
You guys definitely make beautiful exhausts. Really top notch craftsmanship. But 70 hp and 150 lb/ft? You are the only ones seeing those kinds of gains from just a downpipe and stage 2 tune. 35-40 hp is about what most people are seeing.
 

DerekG

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
'13 4dr Golf TDI 6-speed manual
On the product page it says, "up to 210hp and 386ft/lbs".

I'm assuming those numbers imply a stage 3, 3.5, 4 tune. The fact that you wouldn't HAVE to upgrade the exhaust for those numbers. It doesn't say stage 2 tune anywhere on their eco-kit page....just makes reference to the fact you will need a tune for a dpf delete.

I could be wrong, but I'm sure they'll chime in.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
On the product page it says, "up to 210hp and 386ft/lbs".

I'm assuming those numbers imply a stage 3, 3.5, 4 tune. The fact that you wouldn't HAVE to upgrade the exhaust for those numbers. It doesn't say stage 2 tune anywhere on their eco-kit page....just makes reference to the fact you will need a tune for a dpf delete.

I could be wrong, but I'm sure they'll chime in.
That would make sense except for the fact that the Rawtek 3" exhaust would support far, far more power than 210 hp. More than double that amount. I was operating on the assumption that the op was making an accurate assesment of claimed power gains from an ordinary stage 2 tune.
 

Yareka

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Location
Raleigh
TDI
05 PDwagon and 3.2rado
Have installed both the Rawtek and Buzzken deletes. Just to echo what has already been said, the Rawtek downpipe is a seriously fabricated masterpiece. The buzzken gets the job done cheaper and is a touch easier to install because its less modular. They are both great products though.
 

Rawtek

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Chute A Blondeau
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI
Good morning!

To address the issue of posted hp and tq gains:
We have a blanket type statement across all the pages for all the kits stating "up to 210hp and 386tq". This is with the full turbo-back exhaust, stage 2 tune and CAI (expect 1000000 posts blowing up about CAI's). We simply never did a dyno run on an ECO kit alone, so we don't have those numbers.

It is something we plan on getting to, when the time is available. Until then, we will be putting in a note stating exactly that; so as to be sure no one will be expecting those numbers from and eco kit and stage 1 tune kind of thing.

Also, it is noted, that in different places we reference hp and tq and others it's whp and wtq. This will also be addressed and cleaned up.

We have, frankly, been slacking on webpage maintenance, with all our time being spent on keeping up with production and developing new parts.

We sincerely hope that no one got their feathers ruffled too much over the discrepancies.

Happy driving, the weather is warm up here, so we are taking advantage.

The Rawtek Team
 

Biggu

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
2012 JSW PANA/ NAV
Just to clarify, rawtek's 70 Hp gain is at the crank and the cr 170 is 185 hp at the wheels. The size of the pipe doesn't matter much. The only difference between the two is cost and grade of stainless steel. The rawtek is T304 which won't get any rust. Neother of these brands of pipes will ever break, fail, or rust through. So the only difference is one will stay shinier longer and the other cost a few hundred dollars less. Your choice really.
^this, I really almost went with the buzzken but IMO I wanted the t304 of the rawtek just for the rust protection since I am in a state that does a lot of salt during winter time.
 

iamatt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Location
Rosharon, Texas
TDI
2014 Jetta 6 Speed manual
Have a buzzken. Easy install and haven't looked at it since installing. All you see is the silverline tips. No difference down here in Texas

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
I too have a buzzken. Rawtek support is equally as awesome as Ken's support, but I couldn't justify the higher cost and the outrageous shipping charges (shipping was almost double what buzzken charged me). The only problem is I had to get a reducer for the stock muffler (that nobody told me about when I ordered the kit from fixmyvw), but that got resolved fairly quickly. All in all, very happy with what I ordered and love the car even more now! The diesel exhaust smell doesn't bother me; almost every truck in the county smells the same way.
 

Rawtek

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Chute A Blondeau
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI
I too have a buzzken. Rawtek support is equally as awesome as Ken's support, but I couldn't justify the higher cost and the outrageous shipping charges (shipping was almost double what buzzken charged me). The only problem is I had to get a reducer for the stock muffler (that nobody told me about when I ordered the kit from fixmyvw), but that got resolved fairly quickly. All in all, very happy with what I ordered and love the car even more now! The diesel exhaust smell doesn't bother me; almost every truck in the county smells the same way.

It's too bad that we hadn't started our shipping promotion at that point, as I am sure that with free shipping, you may very well have leaned towards our system vs the competition.

Happy driving.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
A refreshing change to see Vendors playing nice and being civil. Thanks.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
It's too bad that we hadn't started our shipping promotion at that point, as I am sure that with free shipping, you may very well have leaned towards our system vs the competition.

Happy driving.
Is this free shipping promotion still going on? I'm looking to delete the stock exhaust on my Golf, and after spending the last 90 minutes reading threads, will probably go with 2.5" on the Golf.

**EDIT** Nevermind. Didn't know rawtek doesn't offer downpipes for anything < 2009.

A refreshing change to see Vendors playing nice and being civil. Thanks.
I concur. Like everyone has said, both make fine products and I hear great things about both companies from many individuals and tuners.
 
Top