Raising Car for Off-Road Crawling or Rally

Frankencar

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May 15, 2007
Location
Dixon, California
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1991 GTI +TDI, Lifted 98 NB TDI, Corrado TDI Swap, 15 Golf TDI, a dozen TDI motors etc...
indysoto said:
Yea I still have My 2" Lift on since 130,000; been thru about 3 lower a arms due to the rear rubber grommet/bushing not liking the return rate/angle of my setup(just bought the audi HD grommets/bushings to try, gonna use the fridge and oven technique) Happy to report I am now at 200,000+ after a deer threatened to cut that milestone short 45 miles from Reno on 395(girlfriend was driving and I was only awake to witness the milestone, Luckily because there were two deer in the headlights and I had to crank the wheel from the pass seat and only got some deer snot on the driverside fender :)

You will like those Audi TT bushings... I ran a set for 108,000 miles at a ver extreme angle with very large tires and never had a problem. :)
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Frankencar said:
You will like those Audi TT bushings... I ran a set for 108,000 miles at a ver extreme angle with very large tires and never had a problem. :)
Nice, I'm glad I have a set waiting for me... =)

Does anybody have any experience with using the whole Audi TT subframe/LCAs etc? It is supposed to stiffen things up and help create more aggressive steering geometry when lowering the car, but I can't seem to find an answer to what the results would be after a raise...

Mike
 

Frankencar

Veteran Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Location
Dixon, California
TDI
1991 GTI +TDI, Lifted 98 NB TDI, Corrado TDI Swap, 15 Golf TDI, a dozen TDI motors etc...
don't know about the TT subframe... the LCA's are very different - they look to be cast. they are also slightly more forward biased at the ball joint for more caster. The TT LCA's do not have anny mounting points for a sway bar either. The TT sway bar mouns to the strut. If you run the TT wheel bearing housings you will have geometry more well suited for a lowered car (the wheel bearing is set higher in the area between the ball joint and the strut clamp). I would not reccommmend them on a lifted car as they would increase the angle at which you A-Arm rests for any given ride hight.

manual_tranny said:
Nice, I'm glad I have a set waiting for me... =)

Does anybody have any experience with using the whole Audi TT subframe/LCAs etc? It is supposed to stiffen things up and help create more aggressive steering geometry when lowering the car, but I can't seem to find an answer to what the results would be after a raise...

Mike
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Good explanation, thanks! Very helpful. I'm still trying to figure out how suspension works. I'm pretty good at it from behind the wheel, but I have trouble picturing exactly how everything interacts at speed. One step closer now. :)
 

Patch

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Location
Columbus, OH
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
indysoto said:
Yea I still have My 2" Lift on since 130,000; been thru about 3 lower a arms due to the rear rubber grommet/bushing not liking the return rate/angle of my setup(just bought the audi HD grommets/bushings to try, gonna use the fridge and oven technique) Happy to report I am now at 200,000+ after a deer threatened to cut that milestone short 45 miles from Reno on 395(girlfriend was driving and I was only awake to witness the milestone, Luckily because there were two deer in the headlights and I had to crank the wheel from the pass seat and only got some deer snot on the driverside fender :)
Any chance we can see some photos of your vehicle?
:D
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Bilstien TC & HD Shock/Strut combo ordered today. Sending in my liability waiver to Metalnerd and ordering raise. His liability waiver/contract says no taking pictures of the product and sharing, so I guess pictures will have to remain a secret until the product is out of the "Gamma test" phase. I will post pictures of whatever I'm legally allowed to take pictures of.

HD front shocks are not compatible with the front raise. If anybody sees any VR6 front springs lying around, let me know I'm looking!
 

coalminer16

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Dec 11, 2008
Location
Central Wisconsin
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Golf 2004
I have them lying around. But only till I can afford the baby first, then timing belt (8K away) and then shocks). Put an ad in on the forsale/wanted page. Thats where I found my wagon rears and VR6 fronts.
 

Kitsune

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Apr 15, 2003
Location
Oregon
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2003 Jetta Wagon TDI GLS
A bit late, but any recommendations to protect the wheel well edges / side panels from rock chips?
 

Wet-stack

troll, banned
Joined
Apr 20, 2010
Location
Whitelaw, WI
TDI
03 Jetta TDI
Very interesting thread to say the least.
I think, instead of spending 5-10k on making your VW into something its not
You could just buy a used cummins for 3-5 grand and only use it when you need it,

Or you could lower a dodge cummins and put a VW emblem on it??

J/K

I want to see pics of this crawler when its done, for sure!
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
OK, I finally found my way back to this thread. I'm going to build a Smyth car ASAP, which is going to take priority over raising my Golf. I haven't talked to Mark or metalnerd about using the lift kit with the Smyth car yet, but if Mark is using VW suspension components I should be able to use the lift to get the Smyth car lifted. The rear frame would be suitable for custom welding of a hitch/winch, and the light weight and reinforced frame will be more appropriate for off-road adventures.

I would likely decide to use a trailer to carry gear. I hope to be getting 70mpg, and a lightweight trailer of the proper size and shape could retain that mileage while allowing me to get where I need to go... even cheaper, faster, and in style. (=

I am sorry to be delaying pictures. I have all the suspension components for a lift ready... but I am looking for a suitable donor car... if I don't find one I'm using my own Golf... and when my RX7, F350, and house sell I will be on the way to owning two TDIs.

Anybody who knows somebody who wants to buy an RX7, an F350 single cab dually gasser, or a house in Normal, IL (great schools & colleges!), you will advance the pace of this thread significantly. Either way, I will be looking for another Golf TDI 99-03 and will raise that someday. I have the ALH fever...

So there you have it. My fantasy. Off-road-capable, rally-inspired mid-engine rear-wheel-drive, wavetrack diff, scotty secret 6-speed, 70+MPG with a small streamlined trailer for camping.
 

butter nuts

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in a house
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none
Do you have emissions testing where you live? An old Toyota 4runner or pickup with a factory diesel swap is pretty hard to beat. You can get complete swaps on ebay. Those things are unstoppable killing machines and I've heard they can get 30-35 MPG with the right engine/tune. I considered this but I'm usually on my feet or a bike when the rough trails start. If youve got about $10k to play with you could make one that is pretty stout.

Re; Dodge Cummins idea... I have one of these and I'd never consider taking it down a Jeep trail. The Cummins engine is pretty reliable but the Dodge trucks they come in are utter dog****. I wouldn't trust the thing anywhere a tow truck can't get to. Full size trucks make crappy off road vehicles due to size, turning radius, weight, etc.
 
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manual_tranny

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New Bedford, MA
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2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
butter nuts said:
Re; Dodge Cummins idea... I have one of these and I'd never consider taking it down a Jeep trail. The Cummins engine is pretty reliable but the Dodge trucks they come in are utter dog****. I wouldn't trust the thing anywhere a tow truck can't get to. Full size trucks make crappy off road vehicles due to size, turning radius, weight, etc.
I'm not talking about taking it down a "Jeep trail". I just need to clear big ruts and pot holes etc... this has been covered pretty well earlier in the thread.

I will argue that loosing 1000lbs, stiffening the rear of the car and moving the engine to the rear, will make the vehicle pretty agile off-road after a raise.

While I plan on pursuing the ALH truck/suv options someday, today is not that day. The Smyth car promises 60-70mpg, and I will find a way to build it and make it work off-road. The knowledge I will gain from building up the car and abusing it is what I am after. I am already dreaming of having my Smyth car taken to the local welder and reinforced. Just a few blocks away they could add custom skid plates and an even stronger welded frame. I could get the front of the car welded up however I want. Now that the engine is out of the way it could only help to add a little weight up in the front. Perhaps a front-mount winch is in order after all.
 

coalminer16

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Central Wisconsin
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Golf 2004
Ok, confused. So what are you going to chop up on your car for the smyth car? I can't imagine it will look like the real smyth car as that is more like a sports car. Also who will make your custom body work and now I am going to ask this. Why not get a jeep then instead of dumping THAT MUCH MONEY into the golf. A few grand is one thing but the smyth car doesn't look cheap if you do it right and if you don't it will look like an ugly freak. Maybe draw some concepts up of what you are planning on doing as you might have something totally different in your head then me to make it worth while doing. Either way if you go forward with the smyth car please keep us informed. Also if you build your car in to a smyth car why would you even need the metalnerd lift? Since you are modding the car so much a little more and you can have the raise you want. Heck you could have a lot of raise if you can work a good axle and swing arm combo.
 

manual_tranny

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New Bedford, MA
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2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Well, the whole rear end gets chopped off and replaced with a steel frame. The car looses 1000 lbs, becomes stiffer, and has a smaller frontal area. Points to attach a strong winch and/or hitch become more viable, and the lower weight contributes to this.

The Smyth car is getting lowered... but mine will be approx 2" higher. I am shooting for 1-2" higher than my Golf currently sits after taller tires. It may look like a sports car, it may even accelerate and handle like a sports car... but it will get it raised up a bit and get taller tires.

As far as the money goes, I'm selling my RX-7 because I'm tired of owning a sports car I don't want to use. I want to build myself a sports car I want to use and can use. 10K is a lot of money.

I can't remember the name of the welding shop near me but they are professional. They can weld quality welds on any metals, and they are always backed up with work.

I don't plan on making the car look like an "ugly freak", but keep in mind I'm the sort of nerd that cares more about getting 60-70mpg... or how fast the 0-60 or 1/4mi time is... or skidpad... not to mention the fun of having a mid/rear engine/drive. I don't care what the car looks like, the numbers speak for themselves. I will do my best to make it look appealing... I hope to convince a few others to try it out. I hope to be able to build one or two more for friends/customers. It's all about giving the ALH the strongest, fastest, most efficient, and most practical design.

One question: axle and swing arm combo? I don't know what this is... I have only heard of swing arms related to motorcycles...

Here's the Smyth car build on Facebook, it's really the best place to look through the pictures:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SmythPerformance?v=photos

As far as... what will the finished project look like? ... well ... Mark is not quite done with the Smyth car build... so I have no way of knowing all the details yet. I am sketching in my head daily, and I am getting pretty committed. Should be a fun, efficient, and safe car on and off-road when I'm done.
 
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coalminer16

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A-arm, or what ever it is called (at the tip of my tongue for the correct name but can't think of it). The part that attaches to the front wheel bearing hub. That is the piece I am talking about that if you built it correctly to the frame you could get lots of raise to it. If you were to do this it would be a lot cheaper to take some welding classes and get your own welder then paying someone $60-$90/hr to weld this for you as it does sound like a lot of welding work. Also, are you keeping the 4-5 passenger amount to your car or are you going to 2 people like what the smyth car appears to be? If you are keeping the 5 pass car then are you adding length to the car. Remember that moving the engine and tranny to the back with the possible shortening of the front end changes the way the car handles in a front end crash (just thoughts to think about). So you didn't answer the one question yet. The body work? That will likely be the most expensive to make it look good. Again getting your own tooling and taking some classes might pay off rather then paying someone by the hour. Not knocking your ambitions it was just a little out of the blue on the change of things and this is a big project for any body to take and financially draining. I don't yet have the money saved to even think of this yet. My family was once in pulling tractors. One thing we learned is to find where you are going to stop on things. You can put a lot of time and money into something that you may not get your money back out of or may not even be able to complete so there has to be set goals and plans (money is included in the list). We have gotten out of pulling for the money and time involved for a $5 trophy and there is always something or someone that is bigger or better that comes along. Just food for thought.
 

coalminer16

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If you get lucky enough you might be able to think of something to improve on the normal cars out there and make your money that way while doing this project.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
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Location
New Bedford, MA
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2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
coalminer16 said:
A-arm, or what ever it is called (at the tip of my tongue for the correct name but can't think of it).
Lower control arm?
coalminer16 said:
Also, are you keeping the 4-5 passenger amount to your car or are you going to 2 people like what the smyth car appears to be? If you are keeping the 5 pass car then are you adding length to the car.
Only 2 people... though some pictures of the Smyth car show a tiny bench in the back. I don't plan on long trips with more than 2 in the Smyth car. I am abandoning a lot of functionality (space for gear and people) while pursuing record MPGs. I hope to have Scotty's "secret" 6-speed installed soon, too. The altered gear ratios and (presumably) reduced drag coefficient and weight should make it the only aero-mod worth 10K.

I am planning on acquiring a second MKIV TDI (Golf I hope) and if I can find one before I start my Smyth build I'll use the bought vehicle as the donor. I will raise that vehicle when I can...

coalminer16 said:
Remember that moving the engine and tranny to the back with the possible shortening of the front end changes the way the car handles in a front end crash (just thoughts to think about).
I have been thinking about this a lot, actually. Mark may or may not have plans for this already... if he doesn't, I will design and weld cross-braces that will reinforce the front end and (hopefully) aid in preventing injury during a front-end crash. The fuel tank will be going in the front, so consider that...

coalminer16 said:
So you didn't answer the one question yet. The body work? That will likely be the most expensive to make it look good.
I'm not planning any major changes vs. the Smyth design besides increased ride height, a rear hitch, and some kind of steel bracing on the front of the car that is strong enough to attach a tow point or removable winch.

You're right about doing the work myself, I would prefer to do it myself anyway. On the other hand... because the Smyth car is not finished and I do not have access to any designs other than the pictures on Facebook, I am still waiting to see what I will need to do.

coalminer16 said:
I don't yet have the money saved to even think of this yet. My family was once in pulling tractors. One thing we learned is to find where you are going to stop on things. You can put a lot of time and money into something that you may not get your money back out of or may not even be able to complete so there has to be set goals and plans (money is included in the list). We have gotten out of pulling for the money and time involved for a $5 trophy and there is always something or someone that is bigger or better that comes along. Just food for thought.
Good ideas too. I don't plan on going too crazy. I have owned this RX7 for 10 years now, and I haven't put any miles on it. 1993, it's at 45K miles or so. I am happy to sell it and put whatever I get for it into the VW. Anything extra can buy me welding gear and some steel. I know I won't be getting my money back.
 
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coalminer16

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Well I wish you the best of luck on this then. I was just stunned as it seemed like such a 180 degree turn from what you started the thread on. Back to the body though. Is the Smyth car builder selling the body work then to form around your car? It would make sense to sell your sports car then if you don't drive it. My father had a 1970 Chevell Chevy that we hardly drove to so we sold it to someone that was going to get more injoyment out of it. One thing about life that makes it worth living is having something to do.
 

machinegun-joey33

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Location
Beaver Dam Wisconsin
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2004
Hey dude, why dont you buy an offroading truck or a jeep or something. Jeeps get better than 15 mpg. Trust me i own one, and i get about 20. Or better yet why dont you buy a diesel jeep. You would be killing 2 birds with one stone, you would have a diesel, but you would also have a jeep. But if you want to waste your time and money on a project like that go ahead.
 

manual_tranny

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New Bedford, MA
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2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
coalminer16 said:
Back to the body though. Is the Smyth car builder selling the body work then to form around your car?
Yes, body, head/taillights, windshield/other glass etc included! Cut off about 1000 pounds, install rigid steel cage for motor in rear, new body, keep dash/climate control/etc.. $10K kit includes lowered suspension/wheels/tires etc. I asked Smyth car builder (Mark) about suspension components and it's all vw suspension... so I should theoretically be able to use my raise with this car. It is a very comprehensive kit.

I can see why this would appear to be a 180. I feel it's really just a 45. I'm hope that I will be right, that this light-weight vehicle can be made durable, fast, and capable.

The Smyth car will have roll bars (some removable) and I believe comes with everything to be track ready. This should make things stiffer for off-road... even better that is has less weight. These are the changes I wanted near the beginning of the thread... but I couldn't figure out how to achieve them. Every change I make will be a compromise. I figure heck, why not be REALLY different? =)

Check out the pictures in the FB build: http://www.facebook.com/#!/SmythPerformance
 
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manual_tranny

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New Bedford, MA
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2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Yeah, it might not go or stop very well right now either since the wheels aren't attached. He's still mocking it up.
 

fell man

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Oct 31, 2008
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Sierra Eastside
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2001 Golf 5m, 2003 Jetta Wagon
Bilstein HD struts&shocks, VR6 springs, Bridgestone ecopia 100

Checked through the Smith thread, nice machine. Alot of work. Wish I could weld, hopefully as I return to school for the next two years I can pull my head out of my arse and take welding classes. I wanted to report that I tossed down the cash and bought Bilstein Heavy Duty struts & shocks and VR6 springs(for front only). Finally able to put them on this week. All I can say is WOW!. What a difference working struts make. Who knew, eh? Surprisingly, they are not harsh. I have not driven them excessively yet, nor in the dirt, but they dampen quite well. As a negative aside I have lost at least an inch of lift in front in the transition to the VR6 springs(no lift block any more). As stated in my earlier posts I think the 1" MN block up front, with VR6 springs, would be the ticket.I definitely have a raked look now. Not happy about that. Also a side note my General Grabbers finally gave up the tread ghost and I moved to a LRR tire as I will be in school the next 2 years and commuting home. I chose the Bridgestone ecopia 100's from that excellent TireRack test. I averaged 55mpg's on the way home, even with my blown out struts still on. They definitely seem to increase my mpg's. Hope your build thoughts are coalescing Manny.
 

manual_tranny

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New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Thanks for the informative post!

I have the 2" lift kit and the Bilstien TC front and HD back sitting in my closet. I am desperately wanting to install them but.. I have conflicting ideas.

I may have a cheap ($2500-3000) '03 VR6 GTI available. I would like to turn my Golf into the Smyth car and buy a second ALH to fix the gasser problem with the GTI. I'm thinking about selling my truck since I have too many toys... better to have a modified ALH and tow a trailer occasionally then to own a 7.5 liter gas engine.
 

blackened

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Aug 30, 2009
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Port Jeff Sta, NY
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2010 black/black dsg moonroof jetta sedan tinted with r8 headlights
I know this thread has been stagnant for a while but I was wondering if any more progress was made on your rally jetta.
 

strange_steve

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Mar 12, 2008
Location
Southern CA, USA
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
so question.... regarding springs

Im looking to lift my 2001 jetta TDI -- im aware of several kits and shocks as discussed in this thread and elsewhere.... this post concerns the springs.... word has it that


Volkswagen Jetta VR6 front springs can be used in conjunction with rear springs from a Jetta wagon. But what year should looking at or what markings (color codes) on the springs should i be looking for?




also MANUAL_TRANNY:

"I have the 2" lift kit and the Bilstien TC front and HD back sitting in my closet. I am desperately wanting to install them but...."

If you still have those parts around in your closet and want to sell let me know...
 
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