Raising Car for Off-Road Crawling or Rally

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Sweetjeep, my first post in the thread explains how I want to use it. I am not going for off-roading for fun, I'm off-roading to get where I need to go. (climbing destinations on very rough roads) My main concern is I want to get my car to stop bottoming out. The reason I'm not getting a Jeep is I don't want to off-road hard, I want to get where I'm going on the el cheapo.

Despite this, I must point out that it is not uncommon for people to go offroad in unibody vehicles. I can't remember if it was a Toyota or a Jeep XJ or what... but there are 4x4 unibody vehicles and techniques to reinforce or repair the unibody. If you search this thread you will find video of a MK4 rallying, and somewhere I posted a link to repairing/reinforcing a unibody. I don't believe that occational crawling will be worse for my car than the high speed rallying. I imagine that the jerk forces felt by a rally car would often be worse than 2-3 wheels at slow speed. I would worry about raising my car with a jack if I thought the unibody would not hold up at low speed.
 

coalminer16

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Location
Central Wisconsin
TDI
Golf 2004
I don't think we will have to worry about the bodies falling apart on us just yet. I would worry more on my 81 rabbit then my 04 Golf. While a piece of metal will break after being bent enough times it does have to bend to the elastic deformation part before you have to worry about starting to fatigue things. Here is my view. How often does a spring (on anything) break a coil unless it was pushed past its limit and when to the elastic deformation. Almost all metals can be bend some. If it doesn't return back to original position then you did deform it and you did shorten the lift. If it returns back to the original position no damage done. Same goes for the body of our cars. If your doors, hood, hatch, etc start to not line up then you better stop as things are getting out of shape and about ready to fall apart (disregarding normal door sag-my rabbit has a horrible issue with that from it's own weight almost).
 

sweetjeep

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Location
North Central, MA
TDI
2002 Jetta
The XJ is a unibody. As are the Grand Cherokees. But there is a very very serious difference.. They were purpose built to go off-road. :) I did see the initial post but my brain kept seeing things like "winch". Either way, it's sort of the knife to a gunfight question. When you prepare, you prepare for the very worst. I just keep thinking to the extreme and continue to fail to remember that you are doing all that you want in a stocker already. :) But your reinforcement idea is what I was getting at. If you do this, you're in better shape. But as is.. I don't know.

Coalminer: Actually coil springs break all the time. Frequently people don't notice, or don't know that is the failure point. That and springs are built from a very specific type of steel designed to bend repeatedly and NOT break.
 

coalminer16

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Location
Central Wisconsin
TDI
Golf 2004
How many of those coil springs weren't pushed past there elastic limits and deformed some? That was a medifore (sp). I know the metals are made different. But taking that into consideration metals behave similar if you know the different limits of each one. Enough on the engineering side of things. If there is anyone out there that either has pictures of someones car or their own car that fell apart just from frame flexing and no other factors like rusting, previous car accident, previous repair or damage of any kind. I know that on the extremes of this yes your car could fall apart but none of us are going to do what a Jeep or truck can do as we all should know the limits and some of us aren't afraid to push the limits. That is how invention is done. I pushed limits on my mud truck when I owned it. I pushed limits on my pulling tractor when we were pulling and in both cases you learn the weak spots and improve them so they aren't week and everyone else wins from your knowledge of what do to. In the end I know this is still a unibody with a front wheel drive system but like the others on here we won't let that stop us from seeing places. We are just brain storming how to see those places and still be able to drive home in the same car.
 

Kitsune

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2003
Location
Oregon
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon TDI GLS
I think we're talking more 'offroading' in the non-improved road / trail sense, vs going up boulders and the like. So a touch of additional ground clearance, the skidplate, and a bit of careful driving is basically all we're talking about needing here.
 

HumboldtDiesel

Active member
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Location
Humboldt Nation, CA
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI
this thread was painfully hard to read to the end but I made it

in all the vehicles made the Jetta has to be somewhere near the bottom in the off pavement department

I understand small amounts of dirt roads when the majority is pavement driving but any more than that and your kidding yourself
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
HumboldtDiesel said:
this thread was painfully hard to read to the end but I made it

in all the vehicles made the Jetta has to be somewhere near the bottom in the off pavement department

I understand small amounts of dirt roads when the majority is pavement driving but any more than that and your kidding yourself
:confused: :eek:

I can't figure out why this thread is becoming a debate about whether or not our Golfs, New Beetles, and Jettas are off-road-worthy in the eyes of Jeep and truck 4x4 enthusiasts. I hope it gets back on track soon. Next month I should be doing my lift and I'll post some pictures of the crazy places I'm trying to go.

I will post pictures of me using the winch to get out of whatever I got into. If it pains you to read through and look at pictures, STOP READING. There are lots of other threads on tdiclub that should be less painful. Sheesh.
 

JungleDeath

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Location
Reno, NV, USA
TDI
00 Golf_11 JSW
I can't figure out why this thread is becoming a debate about whether or not our Golfs, New Beetles, and Jettas are off-road-worthy in the eyes of Jeep and truck 4x4 enthusiasts. I hope it gets back on track soon.
Haven't pictures been posted that prove that they are off road worthy? Of course they have their limits. They are front wheel drive cars.

Next month I should be doing my lift and I'll post some pictures of the crazy places I'm trying to go.
Sweet! Video if ya can also.

If it pains you to read through and look at pictures, STOP READING. There are lots of other threads on tdiclub that should be less painful. Sheesh.
Dude, no kidding.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
JungleDeath, good thread! I'll subscribe and post pictures next month...

Aquaticmind.... WOW what a hit to your Panzer plate!! Great pictures, they were right on time!! :D
 

F250_JR

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2008
Location
Birmingham
TDI
2005.5 Jetta TDI Special Edition
manual_tranny said:
:confused: :eek:

I can't figure out why this thread is becoming a debate about whether or not our Golfs, New Beetles, and Jettas are off-road-worthy in the eyes of Jeep and truck 4x4 enthusiasts. I hope it gets back on track soon. Next month I should be doing my lift and I'll post some pictures of the crazy places I'm trying to go.

I will post pictures of me using the winch to get out of whatever I got into. If it pains you to read through and look at pictures, STOP READING. There are lots of other threads on tdiclub that should be less painful. Sheesh.

Manual_tranny, I honestly agree with you. I haven't posted much in the past several pages, but I have been reading.


To everybody who reads this: it is pretty obvious that the "controversy" surrounding the whole idea of lifting and offroading in VW's has been very adequately covered. I will be the first to admit, I am still not really sure about the long-term wisdom of doing those things. HOWEVER, there is absolutely no reason to go into this any further...everything that could have been hashed out has been, and it is pointless to continue discussing "how stupid this is".

I have deep respect for anybody who is willing to take their vehicles beyond where other people have. Manual tranny and others in this thread have explained numerous times why they have chosen to take this path, and there is no reason for any of us to continue to "naysay" after they have made a decision which does not have any clear proven right or wrong answers (besides just not doing anything). Everybody has their own opinions: I have no problem with that. BUT, you simply can't force your opinions on other people.

At this point, there is no point in anybody continuing to say that they think this won't work...just offer helpful advice or sit and watch the fun.


/rant. ;)
 

MarshallDodge

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Location
Northern Utah
TDI
'02 Jetta GLS
What a neat thread. While I have the Cummins powered Dodge for doing the off-road stuff, and no amount of massaging to the Jetta would get me where it goes, I can see a definite need for "just a little more".

I don't know what it is with the TDI's, maybe the weight, but mine goes through the snow like no front-drive vehicle I have ever driven. The extra height would definitely help in the deep stuff.

I liked the suggestions to put a "brush bar" under the front bumper. You could use it as a clearance indicator when going over something that may not fit under the car.
 

sweetjeep

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Location
North Central, MA
TDI
2002 Jetta
For the record.. *I* am not against it. I just wanted to help make sure M_T was informed. As an avid off-roader, I've done stuff and broken things. And it sucks when you go in under prepared and get bitten.

I think the idea of raising the Golf is a great idea and am saving the money to do it myself. I even have a post out there from a couple months ago asking similar questions.

Euromedic: If you look, one of the first things done to the CountryGolfs is a complete subframe.
 

coalminer16

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Location
Central Wisconsin
TDI
Golf 2004
It is to bad the sub frame can't be added to the newer golfs. Also to bad you can't find a Golf town and Country as I would LOVE to buy one.
 

Frankencar

Veteran Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Location
Dixon, California
TDI
1991 GTI +TDI, Lifted 98 NB TDI, Corrado TDI Swap, 15 Golf TDI, a dozen TDI motors etc...
sweetjeep said:
For the record.. *I* am not against it. I just wanted to help make sure M_T was informed. As an avid off-roader, I've done stuff and broken things. And it sucks when you go in under prepared and get bitten.

I think the idea of raising the Golf is a great idea and am saving the money to do it myself. I even have a post out there from a couple months ago asking similar questions.

Euromedic: If you look, one of the first things done to the CountryGolfs is a complete subframe.

I'm still confused as to how you manage to drive with 3 wheels off the ground... :D

And the country subframe isn't primarily to add strength - it's to act as a cheap simple body-lift (if that's what you could call it) to prevent the C.V. shafts form operating at an elevated angle. the country hasn't really got that much better clearance because if this structure. that's why I didn't run one. I lifted as high as I could without unacceptably low C.V. joint life. I had it higher for a while & found the sweet spot with a little creativity. I did break things on the MKII TDI, all of which lead me to improve the car. :)

I see you work in Robotics? This sounds interesting. what exactly do you do? for what company?
 

sweetjeep

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Location
North Central, MA
TDI
2002 Jetta
You probably couldn't find THAT subframe.. but I assure you 100%, you could pretty easily add a subframe to the bottom of your Golf.

It's a non-issue. Depending on how strong you want it to be will depend on how nicely it'll fit, but it's a trivial exercise.
 

Haribante

New member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Location
Pittsburgh 15215, PA
TDI
2009 JSW
Did anyone see this article earlier today?

http://jalopnik.com/5497042/how-a-500-craigslist-car-beat-400k-rally-racers

Great story.. maybe we will see a TDI out there too someday!

I want to lift and get my 2009 set for (semi) offroad, but I think its still a little too new to do TOO much to it!

Maybe I'll get the itch this summer and just bite the bullet. I wish there were more aftermarket solutions available for us recent TDIers.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Seriously, oh my God I wish that were me. I wonder if a raised Smyth car would be eligible for rally races? It would be a dream come true to enter an off-road race with a TDI mid-engine no-power-steering lifted 2000lb car.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
I've been looking through one of the aero-mod threads and it has given me ideas. Why not strengthen the uni-body with dented aluminum/steel plates? Theoretically, I could better protect the underside of my car while increasing mpg a little with a bolt-on home-made kit. I could get close to about 50 rivnuts and some thick sheet metal, then just fabricate some brackets. Sounds easy enough.
 

sweetjeep

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Location
North Central, MA
TDI
2002 Jetta
FWIW: I did some poking around and among other items that the rally guys do is a) They weld the snot out of the car. Seams, brackets, braces. Basically every panel that it attached to another panel gets welded. b) The roll cage appears to add quite a bit to the strength of the body. It seems most teams weld/attach it to the factory "subframe". the rails that run under the car. In doing so you help stiffen the whole chassis.
 

rperks

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2002
Location
Ventura, Ca
TDI
2000 Golf green(sold) 2015 GSW BLK
I looked up my old thread and could not believe how long it has been since I started down this path
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=38093&page=3
After about 7 or 8 years with a home made 2" lift it is still holding up just fine, the odo turned 225,000 a couple of weeks ago. the only thing i find is that the car tends to pull left or right in reaction to the crown of the particular road I am on, and the tires weear faster on the edges, but I tend to drive fast on the twisty roads and all.

The best investment, as others stated was the steel skid plate I have smashed large rocks to bits, the plate has some serious dents, and I still have the first oil pan in place. On the PCH either Big Sur or Malibu you do not always have an option other than over the center with crap from the cliffs sitting in the middle of the lane.

Have fun with your car, you can always put it back together.

Rob



http://www.flickr.com/photos/36302507@N08/4256675761/
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
sweetjeep said:
FWIW: I did some poking around and among other items that the rally guys do is a) They weld the snot out of the car. Seams, brackets, braces. Basically every panel that it attached to another panel gets welded. b) The roll cage appears to add quite a bit to the strength of the body. It seems most teams weld/attach it to the factory "subframe". the rails that run under the car. In doing so you help stiffen the whole chassis.
Thanks sweetjeep! You are the first to answer a couple questions I had from my original post about a roll cage! I am getting determined to learn how to weld soon. I hope I don't screw up my car once I've got enough practice to feel comfortable welding the unibody...

I suggested to Mark Smyth that we work on a raise for his VW kit car, and he says a couple of other guys have suggested the same. I would pretty much LOVE to make my Golf an off-road stiffened mid-engine rally car like the Stratos. I'd take it straight to Mexico for the next rally! :D
 

sweetjeep

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Location
North Central, MA
TDI
2002 Jetta
I'd learn to weld on the unibody first. NOT the roll cage!

If you learn on the body and screw up 2" of a 6" weld.. so what. If you screw up 2" on a 6" weld on a roll cage.. that's an issue! ;) Assuming you are putting in the cage for genuine safety purposes.

I might seriously go exo-cage were it me. It'll look super cool (as all exo-cages automatically do), it'll give you a killer mount for the roof rack, it won't take away interior space, exterior jack points, exterior protection and did I mention how flipping cool it'll look?
 

indysoto

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Location
Eugene, OR
rperks said:
After about 7 or 8 years with a home made 2" lift it is still holding up just fine, the odo turned 225,000 a couple of weeks ago. the only thing i find is that the car tends to pull left or right in reaction to the crown of the particular road I am on, and the tires weear faster on the edges, but I tend to drive fast on the twisty roads and all
Yea I still have My 2" Lift on since 130,000; been thru about 3 lower a arms due to the rear rubber grommet/bushing not liking the return rate/angle of my setup(just bought the audi HD grommets/bushings to try, gonna use the fridge and oven technique) Happy to report I am now at 200,000+ after a deer threatened to cut that milestone short 45 miles from Reno on 395(girlfriend was driving and I was only awake to witness the milestone, Luckily because there were two deer in the headlights and I had to crank the wheel from the pass seat and only got some deer snot on the driverside fender :)
 
Last edited:
Top