Raising Car for Off-Road Crawling or Rally

[wesmontage]

I read this thread because I need to lift my ride just a bit - no serious offroading planned. Interesting stuff, though. I have, however, read several interesting posts on other forums about various Cummins transplants into various older Jeeps, mostly CJs. The most popular one seems to be the 4BT, which is basically 2/3 of the first 6-cyl Cummins diesel used in Dodge pickups. Lots of these guys claim 28mpg (US) on the highway. That certainly isn't like the 40-50-something we're all used to, but it ain't bad. The turbo keeps the grunt-power up in high altitudes, too.

Here's one thread:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/official-cummins-4bt-swap-thread-cj-7s-537709/
but if you google something like jeep cj cummins diesel, you'll find lots more.

 

[darkhorse]

The most popular one seems to be the 4BT, which is basically 2/3 of the first 6-cyl Cummins diesel used in Dodge pickups. Lots of these guys claim 28mpg (US) on the highway.

I get 26 mpg with my 7300lb Dodge Cummins at a steady 65mph cruse so that 28 doesn't sound impressive to me.

 

[Kitsune]

Spent some more time on rutted forest roads this weekend.

What are everyone's thoughts about slightly bigger tires (I have the stock 15's), say a 195 70 R 15? Or 205 70 R 15s? They should be okay in the wheelwells, right? I don't want to lose too much cornering performance, so ...

 

[Kitsune]

Kitsune, I noticed you're a "newbie" here since 2003! Glad you remembered your password! I hope you got some pictures of that wagon.

Just from when it was new. Once I get it all loaded up I'll get another picture in. And yeah, I lurked for a bit when I got my wagon in '03 then, well, it's been reliable for a long time now, so no need for me to post since it wasn't like I was going to be doing much to it besides maintenance.

Just gotta keep the speed up so you can "make it".

Amusing story about this. We were up in the Mt. Hood wilderness last June on some back roads. It was a pretty heavy snowfall year, so there were still some patches out there. I'm good about 'go faster' to get through the patches ... until the last one which went for about 1000 ft. Then I got high centered about 200' in. With my wife, the night before her graduation for her masters. With her family in town. And us out of cell reception.

WHOOPS!

We dug out packed snow all night trying to clear out under the car, using kayak paddles because I forgot my shovel. And still made her graduation on time, but it was a close call.

 

[manual_tranny]

Spent some more time on rutted forest roads this weekend.

What are everyone's thoughts about slightly bigger tires (I have the stock 15's), say a 195 70 R 15? Or 205 70 R 15s? They should be okay in the wheelwells, right? I don't want to lose too much cornering performance, so ...

205/75/15 seems to be agreed upon as about as large as you can go without modifying wheel wells. It takes the wheel diameter up to about 26.8 Your wheel well is probably about 28", so you don't have a lot of extra space, but it works. It also gives a theoretical 1" lift, because the stock tire diameter is 25", and of course lowers the rpms significantly. Some forum members have reported little if no loss in mpg when they calculate how much the odometer is off.

So yes, 195 70 R 15? Or 205 70 R 15s will work, and you can go bigger. I personally am a fan of going bigger, because then you can get the on-off road General tire, seen here: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=General&model=Grabber+AT+2&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&partnum=075TR5GRAT2OWL&tirePageLocQty=%26partnum%3D075TR5GRAT2OWL

I may be wrong, but I suspect that the relatively small weight gain switching to the 205/75/15 would be somewhat compensated for by the tire being wider and having a bit more contact with the road. This is just a suspicion though. It is kind of impossible to compensate for unsprung weight with traction, I just mean- there would be benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Kitsune]

That's what I'm thinking, though I do want decent performance onroad as well since last thing I need to do is maintain 2 sets of tires.

Thinking more like http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+ATR&partnum=07TR5SCORATR (gotta check to make sure they're fairly quiet, though)

 

[manual_tranny]

That's what I'm thinking, though I do want decent performance onroad as well since last thing I need to do is maintain 2 sets of tires.

Thinking more like http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+ATR&partnum=07TR5SCORATR (gotta check to make sure they're fairly quiet, though)

Those look ok, but I don't think you're going to be making it through anything too ugly with them.

Coal miner suggested the use of spikes spider for really bad snow... something to think about, after getting stuck out of cell-reception like that. If you were to use those you would probably need to keep your tires near stock size. On the other hand, if you had them you might never be stuck again, and he says they're really easy to put on and remove. I sure want some.

 

[Kitsune]

Tires don't help when you're high centered Nor do chains. For me, for on-road snow, I'm usually pretty good as long as I'm not plowing slush. And if it's that bad, I'll just chain up.

 

[manual_tranny]

For about 3 years I've been running my 02 Golf with 2" lift, 215/75/something Michelins, Evo alu plate, Reese hitch, RC1 and VNT-17 with no problems. It outperforms average street cars on pavement and gets around off-road about as well as any fwd street car can.

Thanks for joining us! How are the 215/75s? You said your car dives, but do you notice the increased mass of the tire? Do you think these tires would do better if you had a 1" lift? (instead of the 2") I'm sure Kitsune would be interested in hearing about road noise, too... thanks in advance!

Oh... and what are the tires? ha...

 

[coalminer16]

Ya, that amount of high centered snow chains wouldn't really help. I got to spike spiders so I didn't have to worry about my pregnant wife having to put the typical chains/cables on. Spikes spiders are very easy. They do take up more room to store though. Up at Mt St Helens a couple years ago I wanted to go on the road to go look at it in March. The base didn't have snow but part way up it was snowing bad enough that the 4 wheel drive truck we were following was having troubles and turned around. I figured my 2 wheel drive rabbit car had better turn around as well. Did take it on some logging trails in the area to till the snow got to deep.

 

[solarmike]

I have done these things with my Beetle TDI which has the same chasis as a Golf, I believe.

I have:

1. Metalnerds 2" lift kit w/ Bilstein TC
2. Panzer Plate
3. 1/2" wheel spacer for 1" wider stance
4. Had General AT2 215/65/16 27" wore out in 20,000 miles!!
5. Upsolute stage ll chip with .205 injectors
6. trailer.com 1 1/4" tow package
7. Thule bike roof rack with stained wood tray

Wish list:

1. VR6 springs in front, Jetta wagon springs in back
2. Bilstein HC's
3. Brush guard front and rear
4. KC or other brand lighting front and rear (for off-roading at night)
5. 205/75/15 Hankook MT RT03
6. Belly pan w/ skid rails
7. Kerma TDI chip and Bosio injectors
8. Snorkle ( may be over kill but, the air intake, in a foot and a half of water, is like a straw going straight into the engine ) followed a friend with a Ford Ranger mudding one time and he went into a big puddle and he lost his engine half way across. The Rangers intake is up front at bumper level!?

This is the modern Baja Beetle or in your case Baja Golf and it will take you anywhere. It is the most fun I have ever had with a car. Jaws drop and many minds changed about what a Beetle can do. I easily cross wash out ditches, 8" tall rocks and climb hills strewn with big rocks and pull a trailer full of fire wood in those conditions. I do average 40 mpg every tank. I hope you have fun with it.

 

[manual_tranny]

4. Had General AT2 215/65/16 27" wore out in 20,000 miles!!

No kidding!? Were they wearing evenly? Were you driving like a crazy person? I can't believe they have such a terribly short life. Even if you were doing auto-cross on the weekends I'd expect them to last longer. (I do believe you, I'm just surprised)

I'm looking forward to hearing about 205/75/15 Hankook MT RT03 if/when you get them. I might get them instead of the AT2s if they last any longer.

How was traction with the AT2? Was it worth leaving the rubber behind?

 

[cowboyjack]

Great thread! I don't think you are crazy at all.

We are moving back to the ranch, with 2 and half miles of daily driving each way on a very bad dirt road and I was just thinking about how to raise the suspension on my 98 Jetta. Not all of us live in urban areas or spend our fun time with our cars there, either.

Frankencar: Maybe I'm a little dense, but I went to your link and couldn't find any info. on your car? How did you raise the suspension?

I wish metalnerd had a lift kit for the Mk3s... anyone have any suggestions on how to lift a 98 Jetta? I can certainly get the heavier springs, the Bilstein HDs and larger tires, but what then? Fab something up like the earlier post in this thread? Suggestions?

Yes, I already have a skid plate and it has taken more than its fair share of abuse. Sure, I can use the truck, but it doesn't even get close to 20 mpg and once I clear the dirt road, I have 105 miles of pavement to my job. (No, I don't commute that every single day.)

 

[Frankencar]

98 Jetta Lift.

be thankful MetalNerd has no lift for the 98. there is a much better way (more compression travel at the cost of some droop - effective for really rough roads) - exactly what I did with the MKII (they share many parts)

Passat VR6 Wagon springs all around. and use the Passat VR wagon rear upper mounts (you need to drill 2 holes in each of the towers) use MKII front strut tubes with removeable struts & this will allow you to dissasemble them so you can grind the part off that wraps around the strut tube to hold the wheel bearing housing. once it is off - you can relocate it and weld it back on. this only accounted for about 3/4" of my lift though. the passat VR springs did most of the lifting. Be sure to run Bilstein HD's. (insertsin the front MKII Tubes). the main readon for modding the front tubes was to allow the tire to bolt up without contacting the spring perch. B# passat 16V (90-93) A-Arms are a direct fit on the MKIII and will be much stronger. they will take several intense hits before failing - while the stock MKIII stuff can leave you hanging. .

 

[cowboyjack]

Frankencar, THANK YOU!!! That gives me a very clear idea of what to work with. I can do that. Yahoo! I think I may be warming up the welder this week.

 

[manual_tranny]

More and more I consider starting this project with a mk2 or mk3 and seeing what I can do to with an ALH or maybe one of Scotty's 1.2PD engines. I might be able to eek out 55-65mpg instead of 45-55, and with the proper modifications I might get better economy, a beefier suspension for off-road, and definately I could collect junk chassis to keep for parts easier.
I have a fantasy... that somehow electric drive could be hooked up to the rear wheels, and that the parking brake could be fitted to work as a regenerative braking command for the motor(s), that the electricity would be quickly and efficiently contained in two car-battery-sized ultracapacitor banks that could push as much power as the electric motor(s) could safely take. I imagine the hardest part would be engineering the part that would work as a regenerative brake and a centrifugal clutch for the rear wheels, while the second hardest design would be rear axles to centrifugal clutch. Control mechanisms would be available and since I wouldn't care what the prototype looked like, only a few parts and some fabrication would be expensive. I would be happy if my fully-charged ultra-capacitors had only 400-800ft of acceleration available, they would mostly function as a brake saving and fuel saving device, that as a side benefit, would allow manual control of fwd, rwd, and 4wd.
This sort of thing would be really handy when it came to getting up slippery slopes, getting un-stuck in deep snow, eliminating front brake wear (depending on driver use of rear motor as brake), and hybrid drive system without a computer telling you how to use it, how good you are at driving it, etc. The weight over the rear axles would increase, but having available drive back there would help things.
Does a TDICLUB post date count towards a patent? LOL I'd be happy enough if they just made something cool like this, instead of the inventions that idiot-proof a car.

 

[Frankencar]

that made my day...
the lift I did is aobut the max that will still be daily driveable/reliable... I had it a bit taller for a while and the CV joints didn't take it for more then aobut 4500 miles of mormal driving. With it where I had it - i was able to get a set of joints to survive. The key thing was to avoid setting the cruize above 100mph... because when I did that the joints would start to overheat and after about 13 minutes they would bind up and shred themselves. (both times I was maintaining approximately 110mph with ambient temps over 100 deg F). I think maybe it would work without the big roof rack with lights installed. I never got a chance to try since the water it ingested while in a mud hole caused a crack in the #2 piston. The car typically got about 40mpg - but i like to drive real hard & it had 250,000 miles on it and the pp764's were almost 200,000 miles old on the original injector bodies... The best tank with the lift was before I got the roof rack at about 190,000 miles. we drove from portland to the SFBay with a 1600LB load and made just shy of 60mpg. I just sold the modded struts to a guy I work with... he has them on his 97 Jetta TDI now and it's going to be getting the tires i was running. I will be able to post pics of it sometime in the future. If anyone needs info on lifting a MKII or MKIII that will be driven hard - I would be glad to help. All the broken parts have helped to highlight the weak spots in the system and now I know how to avoid many of the failures.

 

[cowboyjack]

Frankencar, Would you be willing to help start a thread on MKIII lifts in that section of the Forum? I'm sure I'm not the only feller who could use a good guide on how to lift a MKIII and learn from your experience?

Manual, Sorry if I highjacked your thread in any way.

 

[manual_tranny]

lol, we're on p.12, and I'm hijacking my own thread by talking about electric drive for the rear of the car. This is my favorite thread, the topic is a little vague and everybody seems cool with any idea (no matter how ridiculous) that might add to the discussion.

Have I already shared the youtube links to the mkiv rally car(s)? The real ones? Cause they exist already. Easier if you've got the money to just buy one, but what's the point in that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKmPqRMJn88

Also, Frankencar needs to be a mk2/mk3 rally mentor. I forget the username, but there's another mk2 rally build thread that a member is doing, welded chassis and all... it's gorgeous.

 

[Kitsune]

Manual_Tranny: if it does, I've posted the idea in other forums before. =) A RWD 'drop in' hybrid would be pretty nice. I'd also love a 'manual hybrid' where you'd mount, say, on the stick, controls for regenerative braking and acceleration via the back wheels. (say, analog controllers) Would be a good retrofit and heck, more control is good, no? Driving sequence would basically involve electric acceleration, dropping straight into 2nd, then normal engine drive until you need to brake, which would be primarily electric brake then followed by mechanical brake as required.

 

[manual_tranny]

Manual_Tranny: if it does, I've posted the idea in other forums before. =) A RWD 'drop in' hybrid would be pretty nice. I'd also love a 'manual hybrid' where you'd mount, say, on the stick, controls for regenerative braking and acceleration via the back wheels. (say, analog controllers) Would be a good retrofit and heck, more control is good, no? Driving sequence would basically involve electric acceleration, dropping straight into 2nd, then normal engine drive until you need to brake, which would be primarily electric brake then followed by mechanical brake as required.

Well, you read my mind. You know what they say... great minds think alike. I'm in love with the idea of short burst rwd that could be combined or not with fwd power. Talk about a sleeper... add 200hp equivalent motor(s) in the back, and all you need is 1600ft of electrical energy in your capacitors.

 

[punchbuggymike]

You might like this guys off road new beetle
http://www.youtube.com/user/hippenhammer

 

[coalminer16]

That isn't bad at all.

 

[manual_tranny]

Excellent video! I can't wait till next month when I finally raise my car up and do the same!!

 

[punchbuggymike]

Those off road TDI beetle videos are a member's youtube channel, he's registered as Solarmike. I found this out afterwards...neat vids. thanks Solarmike.

 

[coalminer16]

So manual, what are your final plans for raising. Bigger tires, stronger springs, metalnerd lift, homemade lift?

 

[manual_tranny]

metalnerd lift, 26.8" tires, stiffer springs in front....

I am considering air bags for the rear of the car so I can raise/stiffen for towing. I may scrap this if it gets expensive or unreliable. I haven't been looking into it too much as this is low on the priority list.

I have the Panzer plate on already, too...

Unfortunately, I have been dealing with a whining noise from the timing belt. I did the entire TB procedure again today just to change the tensioner, (which was definitely right near the noise) but I have the exact same noise back again. I hope I don't break down, because I am definitely running out of patience trying to fix the noise.

If my engine doesn't fall apart, I'm going to start adding power too... the new mercedes turbo system vwmikel designed is amazing. Within two years, I plan on having that turbo, wavetrac differential, Scotty's 6-speed, better injectors, axles, clutch, and some guages (egt, boost)

 

[coalminer16]

I have read into your post on the timing belt. Hope that goes better. My brother just bought air bags for his wagon. I will let you know what he thinks of them. He is in a high salt area living in MN so should be able to test if they hold up to that. I don't know how he is mounting the air hose yet. I just got some used rear wagon springs and VR6 springs. After my timing belt and when I get the money I will get some Koni reds and mount the springs up. Careful with the power mods. Once you pop, you can't stop. I only have done a tune with a used Q-loader but it has done wonders. I still need to get the seals for my PD150 injectors I bough a year ago. Someday I will do that turbo set up you mentioned as well but the 6 spd scott is designing would be first before that. I did talk with my brother more on a grill guard. He is thinking of taking a tow bar and modding it/welding to put the guard on that since it would have the strength to tow the car.

 

[coalminer16]

The crappy part is I have the engineering degree to be able to design the guard but lack the tools and my brother who went to school for welding has the tools but needs some help on the designing to make it look nice yet practical and we are 800 miles apart. Either way I imagine we will get one built as we both love our cars so we plan on keeping them for a while and protecting from deer. If we use a tow bar set-up I will post the brand and then any dimensions of custom parts made from there. He only will build our two. I would build more but need a welder at least. He did a tow bar for his rabbit truck with mounting on to a nicely made bumper with turn signals in it (1980 model-needed in the bumper) and really solid and it still mounts the tow bar. Even took care of a deer with out destroying the rabbit.

 

[manual_tranny]

I have read into your post on the timing belt. Hope that goes better. My brother just bought air bags for his wagon. I will let you know what he thinks of them. He is in a high salt area living in MN so should be able to test if they hold up to that. I don't know how he is mounting the air hose yet. I just got some used rear wagon springs and VR6 springs. After my timing belt and when I get the money I will get some Koni reds and mount the springs up. Careful with the power mods. Once you pop, you can't stop. I only have done a tune with a used Q-loader but it has done wonders. I still need to get the seals for my PD150 injectors I bough a year ago. Someday I will do that turbo set up you mentioned as well but the 6 spd scott is designing would be first before that. I did talk with my brother more on a grill guard. He is thinking of taking a tow bar and modding it/welding to put the guard on that since it would have the strength to tow the car.

I had the bumper off to replace my drive's headlight assembly tonight, and I thought that perhaps the Panzer plate could be bolted to a heavy steel grill-guard type thing that may be strong enough (between 3 rivnuts on subframe and 3 points on lightweight bumper) to take a small winch.

That's fantastic news that your brother is doing air bags... I want to do it but I really don't want to be one of the first!!

I have a lot of time and money in my RX-7 too, and I need to take it to a tuner... A couple years ago I had the engine rebuilt/port/polished, then I put a massive front mount intercooler on it, downpipe, tanabe cat-back, better radiator, re-organized replaced many other things in engine compartment... all I need is to take it to a tuner, which I have finally found. If I switch injectors I'll be looking at a whole lot of power, somewhere easily over 300. I like the ALH better though.. I'm not nervous that it's about to blow up when I drive it.