Q7 from hell

[akmcclain]

2015 Q7 TDI 122k miles. Have had car since 60k with no issues. Around 119,500 miles, November 2023, noticed a coolant leak. Took to dealership, found a leaking hose, replaced it (not under warranty unfortunately). Next day, still leaking on garage floor, took back to dealership. We did this back and forth probably 4-5 times, I have lost count. They replaced all kinds of stuff under the diesel warranty - more hoses, head gasket, some "dummy bolt" somewhere. After about 6 months, the coolant leak was fixed, but then we would get random issues with underboost - glow plug light would flash and car goes into limp mode. Again, back and forth with dealership for about 4 months - replaced intercooler, replaced the whole turbo, and the EGR valve gasket - all at different times but all under warranty. The later ended up being the fix. Probably about 2 weeks after getting the underboost issue fixed, coolant light came on. I have had to fill it 3 times in the last 10 days. Not a drop of coolant leaking from the bottom. I could smell coolant from the oil cap. Got it back to dealership this past Tuesday. I get a message from the service guy (who has been very good through this whole process), and he said the technician thinks the engine block is warped. I'm supposed to get a call tomorrow from service manager and discuss a plan. I am at 122k miles now.

Has anyone heard of a warped engine block in a Q7? Is it plausible that all of these issues are related? Is it time to move on? I keep going back to the dealership for the warranty, which they have been good about honoring. I'm just not sure now that I'm above 120k if they will cover. Can I make the argument that the car hasn't been right since 119k? and has only been "ok" for 2,000 miles since leaving their shop? Any thoughts, suggestions, questions to ask to the manager tomorrow, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-Andrew

 

[danmin]

Seems like time to execute some lemon-law. Going to the dealer that many times is crazy. I hope you can get some good closure on this issue.

 

[oilhammer]

May have simply been run low on coolant too many times, tough to say. When I go into the valley, I replace pretty much everything under there that could leak coolant or oil. Sounds like they wanted to do it one piece at a time, which is kinda dumb.

It's a very complicated engine, lots of stuff to potentially leak.

 

[akmcclain]

The engine failed a cylinder leakdown test. The mechanic thinks it is likely a crack somewhere, or it is warped. Can't say for sure without tearing it down. Basically engine is toast.

Are there any mechanics on here that have seen anything like this in a TDI? This car has had its coolant system pressurized a lot - after every repair with the coolant issues. Maybe even overnight on a few occasions. Is there any possibility that a crack can form through a coolant passage from over pressuring the system over time? I know its a stretch, but I can't help but think everything has been related.

 

[oilhammer]

Tough to say what specifically caused it really.

It should have been under warranty (10 year, 120k miles) when this Failboat left port.

 

[Garrison]

Trying to figure out why you're so sad - you're most likely going to get a new engine for free.

 

[oilhammer]

Yeah, downside is the guy (or gal) tasked with installing it is going to be doing it for a reduced pay rate.

If they agree to replace the engine, I'd get that tech a $50 gift card to Applebee's or something. Seriously, that gesture goes a long way and means a lot.

 

[MrCypherr]

Agreed. Its a crapshow of a job to do an engine on those cars. If the owner gets the tech something to show they appreciate what they are doing, it makes the day of the tech. Stuff happens but these engines are not friendly.

 

[akmcclain]

Trying to figure out why you're so sad - you're most likely going to get a new engine for free.

My concern is they will not cover it under warranty because I'm over 120k. Also, if I understand the diesel gate extended warranty, it is supposed to be in regards to emission components? I probably don't have that quite right. But the service manager made it sound like they best he could do was like 25% discount on repair, which would still be more than what the car is worth.

When I inquired about which cylinder failed the leakdown test, the service tech was unable to tell me. Based on my research, a failed leakdown test could be intake valves, exhaust valve, head gasket, cracked cylinder/engine block or piston related issue. This could very easily be another head gasket (maybe passenger side this time?).

Here is my repair log for this car. Again, the concern is I'm over 120k, and they can't be sure this isn't just a "new issue". But tell me what you guys think... I feel like the first coolant leak was just the first domino in this series of issues. Love the car though.

	days later	mileage later	Date in	Date out	days in shop	mileage in	mileage out	total mileage in shop	Issue	Repair
Visit 1			8/16/2023​	8/17/2023​	1 day	116,304	116,305	1​	leaking coolant	Coolant pipe
Visit 2	40 days	1,695	9/26/2023​	10/5/2023​	9 days	118,000	118,006	6​	still leaking coolant	Coolant plug leak
Visit 3	18 days	793	10/23/2023​	11/8/2023​	16 days	118,799	118,822	23​	still leaking coolant	Coolant plug leak, catalytic converter
Visit 4	6 days	342	11/14/2023​	2/2/2024​	80 days	119,164	119,193	29​	still leaking coolant	head gasket, coolant pipes, coolant gasket, brakes
Visit 5	3 days	12	2/5/2024​	3/7/2024​	31 days	119,205	119,363	158​	underboost	*First underboost issue* none, unable to reproduce underboost
Visit 6	0 days	16	3/7/2024​	3/25/2024​	18 days	119,379	119,449	70​	underboost	Intercooler leaking and replaced
Visit 7	0 days	64	3/25/2024​	4/29/2024​	35 days	119,513	119,611	98​	leaking fluid	Torque converter seal
Visit 8	14 days	284	5/13/2024​	5/31/2024​	18 days	119,895	119,935	40​	underboost	Turbo replaced (never proven to be "bad"), oil changed
Visit 9	1 day	35	6/1/2024​		2 hrs	119,970	119,970	0​	underboost	Battery dead - tech came, jumped car, drove to shop and replaced battery, picked up 2 hrs later. Drove down the road to home depot, and went into limp mode. Drove back to Audi same day
Visit 10	0 day	-	6/1/2024​	7/1/2024​	30 days	119,970	120,117	147​	underboost	EGR tube seals replaced
			7/20/2024​							First coolant light/fill (Rhode island)
			7/27/2024​							Second coolant light/fill (Ohio)
			7/28/2024​							Third coolant light/fill (Ohio)
			7/28/2024​							Fourth coolant light/fill (Maryland)
Visit 11	28 days	1,883	7/29/2024​			122,000			Coolant consumption	5th coolant fill (wouldn't start)

 

[oilhammer]

Please read through the "covered" parts of the warranty. It clearly states:

"Additionally, the engine long block warranty shall cover the engine sub-assembly that consists of the assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train "

That is a cut 'n paste literally from their own website.

 

[akmcclain]

Audi said during the dieselgate, they allotted about $15k per VIN to use in repairs, and they will not go over $15k. I am at $13.5k with all the previous repairs. He also said because it is at 122k miles it is out of warranty, and Audi will not cover anything else on this vehicle under warranty - meaning no engine block.

Still no answer on exactly what is wrong with the engine in regards to the leakdown test. Manger said the technician thinks it is warped (on Friday he thought it was cracked). Is it unreasonable for me to ask them to look into this further, even if I am paying labor? He said they were not going to spend more time/money into further diagnosis because it was not going to be covered under warranty.

What is frustrating is that after visit 8, I wanted to be done with the vehicle and had them do an appraisal for trade-in value for the car. The manager recommended we continue to try and fix the vehicle and that they were not going to "give up". I could've had $9k trade in at that time, now I have $0.

 

[oilhammer]

LOL, boy what a load... $15k? Seriously? There are people here who have racked up over $20k on a measly Jetta. Heck, one guy I know did over $9k billed to VoA for the RENTAL CAR alone!

Yeah, it is out of warranty now, but when you originally started this whole thing, it was... man, what a crock. I would call customer care, or find a lawyer.

 

[MrCypherr]

This dealer sounds like they are just going in circles lol. I've never heard of VW/Audi putting aside 15k per car. They are just talking nonsense and trying to dodge you now that the car is out of warranty. Id contact customer care right away.

 

[Tom_B]

Please listen to those above and call Audi USA. Have your records on hand, explain your concerns and dealer responses. IMO no need to talk ill of the dealer, no matter whether they deserve it, just be factual. Good luck.

 

[akmcclain]

Update on this. The service manager had a meeting with Audi. They gave me basically two options -
1) engine replacement (new remanufactured engine) - I would basically pay $3,500 out of pocket. The dealership and Audi of America would cover the rest
2) Trade in for a new vehicle - dealership giving 6% discount, AoA would match 6%. More expensive the car, the bigger the discount obviously.

I feel like option 1 makes the most sense. I could keep pushing for them to tell me exactly what is wrong with the engine (head gasket again, crack, warp, etc), but whatever it is, will probably be close to $3500 to repair/replace, and it is no longer under warranty. So that $3500 could be spent on a new engine...

The service manager told me earlier, if we did the engine replacement, there would be nothing covered under warranty. So if I drive off the lot and a piston shoots out of the engine, its on me.

I haven't told them what our decision is, but I want to see what thoughts people have on getting some kind of warranty coverage. It is a "new remanufactured engine assembly provided by Audi". I do not know then if this is an engine someone else remanufactured (LKQ?), or if this is an engine that Audi itself remanufactured? If Audi remanufactured it themselves, I would expect there should be some kind of warranty/coverage on this engine. I mean LKQ gives a 4yr/unlimited miles for gasoline engines, 1yr/12,000 miles on diesel engines.

Thanks for your inputs!

-Andrew

 

[oilhammer]

It'll be a new engine, and may not even technically be "remanufactured".

Kind of a crap deal given it WAS under warranty originally, and 12% off any new Audi basically means the first year depreciation won't sting quite as bad.

The new Q7 is nice, it's more a "car" than an "SUV", and of course no diesel. Personally, I'd want a car... the A6 avant is nice.

 

[MrCypherr]

At this point, you gotta look at the age/mileage of the car, look at everything thats happened, look at what COULD happen and the condition of the car. Is it worth putting the $3500 in and who knows down the road what else goes wrong. Not just with the engine but everything else. Do you still need the TDI? Could you get something newer and be okay with it?

 

[akmcclain]

At this point, you gotta look at the age/mileage of the car, look at everything thats happened, look at what COULD happen and the condition of the car. Is it worth putting the $3500 in and who knows down the road what else goes wrong. Not just with the engine but everything else. Do you still need the TDI? Could you get something newer and be okay with it?

Agreed. But is 120k really "high mileage" for these cars? Have only needed to replace tires, brakes, and fuel filter since all this happened at 116k. In my ignorance when we first got this car at 60k, I just assumed this thing could/should get to 160k 180k no problem. Maybe I'm wrong. My wife's civic got to 220k, our previous highlander got to 210k. Maybe I'm viewing these cars with the wrong lens. The old saying "they don't make them like they used to" certainly rings true it seems.

We currently pay $350/mo for the car. Anything new is going to be $600+/mo in today's economy with interest rates and such. We certainly don't "need" a TDI. But need (ideally) something with 3rd row. Cheapest Q7 new is $70k at this dealership.

 

[oilhammer]

The fragile pieces of the engine, not necessarily the engine proper, but the stuff screwed to it, is often the limiting factor. And in some cases, the stuff screwed to the engine can indeed mess up the engine itself.

Transmission is good, and most everything else is pretty well built on those. Depending on your driving, they can be hard on tires and brakes, but most of the vehicle holds up well.

 

[MrCypherr]

Not really 'high' but also got to look at the problems you've had already with it. Regardless of it being covered under warranty, it seems like at 120k, its given you some problems. TDIs are not cheap to maintain nor are they like a civic or a highlander where, if you dont do something, it will be 'okay'. These cars seem to need everything done on time and with proper parts, no cheap china parts. That goes for filters and everything else.

I do agree that new cars are super expensive. Even with the 12% they are giving you. Thats roughly ~$8400 off a 70k car. Which im sure is not with tax and whatnot included as well. If you need the 3rd row, then Id say thats a reason to need it. So, if everything else besides the engine right now is not giving you headaches, then I'd possibly say go ahead with the $3500 if its within your budget.

 

[akmcclain]

Not really 'high' but also got to look at the problems you've had already with it. Regardless of it being covered under warranty, it seems like at 120k, its given you some problems. TDIs are not cheap to maintain nor are they like a civic or a highlander where, if you dont do something, it will be 'okay'. These cars seem to need everything done on time and with proper parts, no cheap china parts. That goes for filters and everything else.

I do agree that new cars are super expensive. Even with the 12% they are giving you. Thats roughly ~$8400 off a 70k car. Which im sure is not with tax and whatnot included as well. If you need the 3rd row, then Id say thats a reason to need it. So, if everything else besides the engine right now is not giving you headaches, then I'd possibly say go ahead with the $3500 if its within your budget.

I appreciate your detailed input on this case. Thanks for your time!

Is it unreasonable for them not to provide any kind of warranty on the new remanufactured engine assembly they would be installing? I feel like that is the next big gamble in this ordeal, is trusting these technicians to replace the engine correctly. Not only that, but trusting that the engine is a good engine - how long has it been just sitting in the warehouse..

Talk to me a little about engine break-in. I've never had a new engine, so unsure of the details on this process. Is it reasonable for me to ask Audi perform the break-in process?

 

[oilhammer]

There is not really any break in. Maybe avoid floorboarded driving for a couple thousand miles, and keep it under triple digit speeds, that's about it.

New cars get assembled with new engines every day, and most of them get their first start when they are flying out the end of the assembly plant. You should see how some of these cars get driven.

 

[MrCypherr]

I do agree that there should be some sort of warranty of the parts that get replaced. But, Im assuming because its already out of the dieselgate warranty, they are saying theres no warranty since they are already covering the engine. Who knows what the reason is.

 

[USMCFieldMP]

I appreciate your detailed input on this case. Thanks for your time!

Is it unreasonable for them not to provide any kind of warranty on the new remanufactured engine assembly they would be installing? I feel like that is the next big gamble in this ordeal, is trusting these technicians to replace the engine correctly. Not only that, but trusting that the engine is a good engine - how long has it been just sitting in the warehouse..

Talk to me a little about engine break-in. I've never had a new engine, so unsure of the details on this process. Is it reasonable for me to ask Audi perform the break-in process?

If you pay Audi for a new engine, then it should come with a 12 month / 12,000 mile warranty.

Policies - Audi of America, Inc.

Audi warrants that every new and factory-remanufactured part and accessory, (excluding tires and batteries) which is imported or distributed by Audi and sold as a new or factory-remanufactured part or accessory to a retail client or authorized dealer, will be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use and service for the duration of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty (NVLW) or 1 year/12,000 miles, as specified and detailed in the Section Warranty Coverage and Duration.

If a part or accessory, found to be defective, was installed by an authorized Audi dealer and the vehicle is brought during the warranty period to the workshop of an authorized Audi dealer, the dealer will, without charge, either repair or replace it with a new or factory-remanufactured part or accessory.

Given the recent past you have had with needing to repeatedly take it back in, it definitely seems unreasonable for them to not extend that to you, even if they are covering part of the cost.

 

[MrCypherr]

That was my thought process as well. Anything that is replaced gets a warranty. I would present them with that and see what they say.