Prototyping the Stage III Upgrade for A3...

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

I've been quietly prototype-testing UPsolute's Stage III Enhancement for A3 TDIs. I am the first to do this to an A3. So there are still a few kinks to iron out. But I'm still ready to go public (keep in mind I've agreed not to share specifics yet). I'll use photos and dyno plots to tell the story (a picture is worth a thousand words...). Some plots are from real dynos, mine are from VAG-COM plots (which have been found to come pretty close). All have been replotted by Excel to make them pretty. Also, all graphs are plotted at the wheels. Here we go:

Here's a stock B4, rated at 90-bhp and 149-ft/lbs...

This is my engine bay in stock form (engine cover removed)...

So, UPsolute introduces a turbo that's just a little larger than stock...

It wouldn't fit unless we installed it in pieces...

But we evenually got the darned thing in there...

Here's the finished product...

And a closer look at the turbo...

Let's not forgot my exhaust "system"

"Yeah, yeah... So what kind of power does it lay down?"

By now, you're thinking about scrolling up to see how it compares to stock. Here you go...

And here's how it compares to my old Stage II setup...

To keep things in perspective, I created these shootouts between the three A3 powerplants...

My VAG-COM pull was done in third gear. Really, I think fourth gear pulls harder. But a fourth gear VAG-COM run would get me to 100-mph in short order. So, I'll have to save a fourth gear test for when I hit a real dyno. I have a few other dyno comparisons (for fun) at http://www.StealthTDI.com/DynoPlots.html.

The turbo doesn't spool as quickly as the old one. But it certainly comes to life in the region in which most people hot-rod. I can't prove it; but my car feels stronger than my Passat w/1.8T (stock). And my fourth gear 60-to-90mph sprint has been reduced by 20% to 8.2-seconds. Considering that my fuel pump is stock and I'm not using Kerma's injectors, I'm pretty happy with the performance. The car is pretty potent for a lowly A3 and still manages 50-mpg with easy highway driving. The only thing I haven't tested is just how it handles an autocross course without the low-end grunt I used to have. I sort of miss the low end torque. But a change in driving style keeps good torque fairly handy. More photos of the install can be seen at http://www.StealthTDI.com/StageIII.html. I've already been improving the turbo inlet... just a little more fabrication and it should provide VERY little restriction...

Drivability is good. There's NO surging at any speed. Smoke is up when I'm into the pedal. But it's pretty easy to manage. It comes in handy for dealing with tailgaters.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[jackbombay]

51 HP improvement over stock, nice

.

-Jack

 

[Oldman]

WOW!
Is the FMIC out yet?

 

[TDIMeister]

AWESOME, Stealth! You're a real pioneer! I'm jealous.

 

[dlai]

Scott: Very nice gains, especially without an FMIC or larger nozzles. Also, it looks to be a very clean looking install. Congrats! Let us know how it does when you autocross it for the first time...

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

I added a couple of dynoplots from the other A3 engines. The FMIC project was abandoned, not due to a lack of customers, but due to the lack of a cost-effective replacement that actually provided an improvement. An A/W IC or N2O in addition to the stock IC is not out of the question someday.

Thanks for the note of jealousy. But pioneering this kit was on the painful side. Since we had no idea how things would fit, each day was a learning process with plenty of trips to NAPA for small items. I was hoping the car would perform more like DLai's car. So, I was a little disappointed at first. After putting things into perspective, I came to see that this is still one heck of an upgrade. There are still a few improvements to be made to this package before it can be called a "complete kit." So my quest for a little more power may still yield some results. In the future, I DON'T THINK I'LL PIONEER AGAIN.

There's something to be said about letting the other guys have all the "fun," then following up as a "normal" customer for an easier upgrade.

My next autocross will be at the Fest. I don't expect to turn any heads there due to the super-tight nature of the course. My first event after the Fest is September 19th in Sanford, NC. It's VW-ONLY event that promises 8-12 runs on a decent-sized course. Lots of runs equals a great opportunity to dial-in the new driving technique needed for this turbo. I hope to get a few photos and/or video.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[moondawg]

My next autocross will be at the Fest. I don't expect to turn any heads there due to the super-tight nature of the course.

Just glancing at the torque curve, it looks like you might even be disappointed! It takes a long time to rise... I'm guessing because of the lag from the larger turbo.

Now, if you take it to the drag strip... watch out!

All in all, what a nice, clean install. Well detailed post too.

Keep up the good work, and have fun with your new setup.

moondawg

PS, since when is an upsolute valve cover "stock?"

 

[Toronto_Vento]

Very nice upgrade! Looks like you get quite a bit of power. I would imagine that the larger turbo spools slower, so no surprise there...but it should be good for the high-end.

I just noticed something, though...is it me, or do you NOT have an EGR in the new setup? Euro manifold?

 

[Oldman]

I don't agree, there is more than enough power from 3000 RPM to redline, a TDI needs about 1100 RPM per a gear, so yes if you miss shift it two gears then you will note a large torque loss. that why it is called racing. Try an Integra GS-R with a whole 131 ft-lbs max, you bog that boy and your out of the race.

Steath, I still have a stock IC too, initial power does not seem off, but my car smokes more than UPS III A4, a lot more.

 

[Aligator]

Really nice especially that without larger nozzles

A friend of mine has that engine type and we haven't yet decided what to do. We're thinking either about VNT upgrade or about putting in a large wastegated turbo.
How long is the lag with that setup ?
VNT has the advantage of short lag, but I've already done VNT upgrade in A3 and would like to try something else ;-)

 

[mojogoes]

You got to get yourself a fmic oldman its not the power mod but the no heat soak, power you have you keep mod even through the summer months over there 1 week if your lucky here. And the lag because of longer bigger pipes does not exsist especialy with hybrids and bigger turbos.

 

[VWannabe]

The FMIC project was abandoned, not due to a lack of customers, but due to the lack of a cost-effective replacement that actually provided an improvement.

So this means that the Stage III kit for A3/B4 cars will not have an FMIC? Does this mean that the stock intercooler on these cars works better than in the A4 cars?

 

[AtomicSushi]

Good stuff! Great pioneering work there.

 

[mojogoes]

TUT TUT raw fish

no your the man ??T.

 

[fallingwindows]

TUT TUT raw fish

no your the man ??T.

Yes.

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

Let's see where to start...

I'm unsure of how the autocrossing will go. Short, tight courses will be tougher. However, SCCA courses normally have a compromise between tight and long. The powerful cars can't exploit their power on tight courses. The smaller cars can't compete well on longer courses. So there's usually a compromise. I should do okay as long as I can keep my RPMs above 2500. Remember, the car is sort of opposite of what it was. Formerly, I would squirt out of a tight turn, then lose steam about 2/3rds of the way to the next turn. I suspect I'll come out of the turn a little slower now, but blast right to the next turn. We'll see.

The EGR.... Hmmmm.... I can neither confirm nor deny the absence of pollution control devices on this car.

However, I will say that these intake manifolds share the same part number:

I agree with Oldman regarding the shifts. If racing, I run my revs to just over 4000-rpm. Each shift brings me to about 3000-3300 rpm... right in the car's sweet spot!

Smoke is up... probably to Oldman levels. At first, the programmer misunderstood what Rene wanted and gave me WAY too much fuel. So I had to be careful not to overdo it and lose track of cars behind me. It was THAT bad. Now it's bad enough to send tailgaters into "brake check" mode; but there's no smoke below 75% pedal.

Regarding the FMIC: Stage III kits for A4s do not come with a FMIC, either. They're sold separately. So, it's not like I was cheated or anything. If you followed the FMIC GB, you know that Bell Intercoolers was trying to design something for A3s. It was concluded that an FMIC that performed better than stock simply could not fit in our limited space. A SMIC replacement was considered. My interpretation of that intercooler was that it COULD be made better than the stock unit. However, the cost and installation complexity would make it rather unattractive to most buyers. I'm pretty sure Rene is researching A/W ICs to go in tandem with the stock IC. To answer your question, I don't think the stock A3 SMIC is any better than the A4 stock SMIC, with the possible exception of less restrictive IC piping.

 

[peter pyce]

Scott.... Looks from the pictures that you were on the Azenis during all this testing (or perhaps the exhaust picture is from different date?)..... Was the 8,2 sec (60-90) with the Azenis or with a different tire and if so, which one and what size? Thanks

 

[Stealth TDI]

Peter,

Yes, I've done all tests with the Azenis Sports. Not only do I autocross on them; they've been my daily drivers for a several months. They're stock size - 195/60R14.

I may be able to get a better 60-90 time, too. My 3rd gear 40-65 time was virtually unchanged. Then I decided to try something different: I stuck it in 2nd and spooled the turbo, then quickly shifted to third when I hit 38-mph. It shaved just under a 1/4-second. But my consistent 5.21-secs is now a consistent 5.05-seconds. I'm not sure if this method will really help a lot in the 60-90. But it's worth a try some day.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

I had to cancel my trip to Sanford due to the rain. Finances aren't so great, either.

So, I'm racing tomorrow at a local event. I spent this morning doing a test 'n' tune during our setup to see how the car behaved. This course is the more open of the two local "tracks." First gear lag at take off is a bit much (but the torque is still pretty good). I make it a point to get out of first gear ASAP.

The car accelerates VERY well on this particular course. As predicted, I need to work on my pre-corner braking since I'm heading into the turns much faster. Since the turns aren't too slow, I don't suffer too much of a lag penalty. The car is zipping along in no time. In fact, I have minor traction problems, which was unexpected.

I went for a ride in an older Civic hatchback. That thing is deceptively quick for just 109-hp. It's got to be ALL in the handling. I also got to drive a G-stock Mini Cooper S. To be honest, I wasn't terribly impressed. Yes, the car handles well, but the power (torque?) just wasn't as plentiful. Part of the problem was the open differential. I found plenty of wheelspin instead of forward motion. I have the Peloquin and a better torque:weight ratio than he does. Perhaps I'll catch him on the course some day. He's a much more experienced driver than I.

Well, that's enough for now. We're still working on the low end torque... new programming and other things are on the way. Hopefully, I'll have things ironed out by late-October.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[Oldman]

I kind of like the SDI cam since it opens the exhaust early there will be more energy to spin up the wheel. My only question would be does the SDI cam have a slot to drive the pump? I would assume so as how else is it timmed?

Also you going to have to drive the TDI the same way Honda guys drive. You got 1000 to 1400 RPM band, never drop out of it. Also many guys with turbo charge cars turn up their idle, it helps the spool say 1500 RPM or so is the idle, that way there is always some power to spool the turbo, I think a hammer mod for max rich would do this. I have my pump scribed and can go from very lean to very rich with a tap and an eyeball measure. You can put it back to normal driving mode when race is over.

 

[Stealth TDI]

OM,

I kind of like the SDI cam since it opens the exhaust early there will be more energy to spin up the wheel... Also you going to have to drive the TDI the same way Honda guys drive.

Someone suggested that a cam won't help air flow on a low-revving TDI. However, that same person suggested that a cam designed to flow more exhaust would help turbo-spooling. It's an interesting alternative. Unfortuntately, the only TDI cam in town that I'm aware of runs $450 (compared to $250 or less for his V8 stuff). I'd have to get a good bang for that buck.

Also you going to have to drive the TDI the same way Honda guys drive...

The funny thing about this is that most cars, including mine, run an entire course in second gear. Therefore, I've been driving my car "like a Honda" since day one. Even with less torque up high, it really saves time to just leave it in gear and run it. Therefore, having the extra power up top really helps. Should I need to put it in third, I'll still be right in my sweet spot.

I hope to actually be more competitive tomorrow.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[Oldman]

My GS-R I used 2nd and 3rd, but man sometimes I would be in the wrong gear and no matter what I could not make up the time, you can't drive the torque when you only got 131 ft-lbs peak. I really like the setup though. I think a TDI in a CRX gen II HX or a TDI in a MR2 Spyder would just about be a dream. Can you imagine the ontap drift from a TDI mid engine 2000 lbs car?

Good luck. I can't autoX as I have no spare change for new VR6 shafts maybe after my next promotion (next month).

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

Just glancing at the torque curve, it looks like you might even be disappointed! It takes a long time to rise... I'm guessing because of the lag from the larger turbo.

I've been to both of the local autocross courses now. I was really looking forward to the tighter course since that's where I expected more problems with slower spooling.

I drove ALL day on Saturday at a Novice Driving School. BTW, did you know that driving all day with the brake pedal switch disconnected results in a flashing glow plug lamp?

I thought I had broke something since some of the driving was done in torrential downpours and some light flooding. But the flashing ceased the instant I plugged the switch back in. ANYWAY, I learned a lot about how the car handles and dialed in a newer set of tire pressures (45F/55R

). I then raced my four runs on Sunday (brake light disconnected, but no flashing glow plug lamp).

Driving the car at the limit, the lack of low end torque doesn't hurt that much. I find that I still need to hold back a bit as I exit the turns or I experience understeer. So the car is still making enough low-end torque to cause handling problems while exiting turns. Within two seconds of getting on the pedal, I find myself doing my best to hang on to the car as I approach the next turn. In fact, now it's much easier to be going TOO FAST into the turn. I've discovered my brakes work better than I had thought.

Truth be known, Rene is providing me with a different turbine housing soon. This should bring back much of my low end torque without sacrificing the top end power. I hope to see it flatten the HP curve, bringing on max HP at an earlier RPM. While I'm pretty happy with the way my car currently performs on the autocross course (I now run faster than a few drivers that were consistently faster than me), I'm certain additional low end torque will be welcome once I learn to control it. In fact, it may turn my car into one that needs to be shifted to third gear.

Due to an upcoming two month assignment to Montgomery, AL, I may not be able to install the new turbine housing until after Thanksgiving. I'll be sure to post before and after VAG-COM plots around Christmas time. I'm pretty certain I will be turning more heads and having more fun on the autocross course next year. Oh, I managed 47-mpg on my drive back from the TDI Fest. That was with mild speeding and jack-rabbit starts from the toll booths.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[VWannabe]

Is Upsolute still making the kits for the A3's? I have read that they are not producing any more kits.

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

Is Upsolute still making the kits for the A3's? I have read that they are not producing any more kits.

You've heard correctly. Buying these kits in bulk and storing them between sales is an expensive endeavor that requires an $18,000 investment. Although the Stage III kit seems expensive, it just isn't the sort of project that makes money hand over fist for the seller. Consider that APR's 1.8T Stage III kit sells for $4500 and you'll see that a $1700 TDI kit isn't making a huge profit, especially when you consider that not all of his 10-15 kits were sold for that much.

My A3 Stage III kit was the prototype. Unless Rene opts to Stage III his A3 in the future, it's very likely my car will remain one-of-a-kind.

A full kit for the A3 did not come to pass. But I have a good record of the parts needed to be successful on an A3. While Stage III may no longer be a ready-to-sell item, Rene may open sales to group buys in the future. Having seen how group buys on expensive kits have failed in the past, it wouldn't surprise me if it's a LONG time before we see more Stage III cars. The last five kits are already spoken for.

Did Upsolute's Stage III program fail? I don't think so. I think Rene has proven that a larger wastegated turbo can successfully provide a significant, reliable boost in HP and torque. TDI owners who are willing to spend large sums of cash for large power gains are a minority for sure. It's just not economically feasible, IMO, to stock $18,000 in parts for the rare occasion that someone steps forward. I ran into the same issue with year-around stocking of my t-shirts. Sure, t-shirts are much cheaper than turbos. But I understand the headache associated with stocking slow-moving merchandise.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[Spike_TDI]

Is there software that works for the Stage III kit for both the A3 and A4 cars?

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

Is there software that works for the Stage III kit for both the A3 and A4 cars?

It depends on what you mean by your question. If you're asking whether the same software works on both cars, I doubt it. I don't know enough about the programs to understand the differences in engine control between the two powerplants (AHU vs ALH). But there MUST be significant differences.

If you're asking if programming is complete for both of the platforms, the answer is "maybe." The situation is no one has walked into the Stage III upgrade with the same car (as far as I know). Some guys had a chip, some with injectors (B205, PP520, PP502, PP764, and others?), some with 11mm pumps, some with OMI, some with a FMIC, etc, etc. MY car might've been the least modified of the bunch; but also completely different from the rest (being the only A3).

Essentially, I think each level of car had to have a slightly different program. My A3 with B205s, 10mm pump, stock intercooler, and a hybrid T-series turbo require different programming than an A4 with PP764s, 11mm pump, Upsolute intercooler, and a GT-series turbo. Rene continues to provide minor program tweaks as required to dial-in the package. Should I upgrade my fuel pump in the future, I think I can count on him to provide me with another file.

Hope this helps...

Scott

 

[Spike_TDI]

Thanks Stealth
I was just wondering if the reason for the Stg.III being stopped was because UPS not being able to get software the work.
If the software is available people could easily piece a wastegated turbo kit together.

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hi,

It wouldn't happen! If Rene couldn't get the software to work, you'd be reading about refunds instead of him selling his last five kits.

THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION:

I can't imagine Rene delivering a program suited to customer-installed parts. He's done a lot of research and has a firm stand on what will and won't work. Unless you find a turbo combo that has great merit, I don't think he'd waste his resources to deliver a program for it. So, I can't see a program unless he approves of the hardware first. Want to get the hardware he specified for his kit on your own? Don't expect him to hand over the details. I know he's worked too hard to just hand over the information (or sell it to someone who will freely disseminate it). No, I think he has earned the right to sit on the info and sell future kits in group buy efforts.

For the record, I won't be handing over details, either. So don't bother asking. I respect Rene's research and will not circumvent it. I'll help A3 owners overcome certain installation obstacles if they are Upsolute customers. But that's about it. I imagine details will be scarce until we're all driving chipped 2.0 TDI's with KERMA's injectors. By then, no one will care about an old 170-hp A4, let alone an A3.

Take Care,

Scott

 

[Stealth TDI]

Oh,

For the record, I won't be handing over details, either. So don't bother asking.

This was intended to be a general comment for the masses. It was not directed at anyone in particular. So please don't take it personally.

Respectfully,

Scott