Propane Injection

70MPG-goal

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Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
Who has tried a propane injection in their intake? BullyDog has discontinued the kit for our TDI, and all of them for that matter. What are the experiences? Where can I get one? Used kits are OK.
 

MoldovaDIZEL

Vendor
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Location
Toronto/Guelph
TDI
mk4 TDI, 98 Cabrio AAZ
propane is a very sensitive topic in canada.....only 1 major company certifies the propane tanks,,,,which suck btw. any propane system other then "theirs" would be illegal.
 

storx

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Jan 16, 2006
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Earth!!
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2009 Jetta CR140, 2010 Corvette Z06
propane is a very sensitive topic in canada.....only 1 major company certifies the propane tanks,,,,which suck btw. any propane system other then "theirs" would be illegal.
most propane kits use the standard tanks that you buy at local stores.. but i think they discontinued them because they are so unpredictable when injected before the intake manifold..a lot of cars/trucks had backfire and damaged there engine.
 

70MPG-goal

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Joined
Dec 30, 2012
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Quebec, Canada
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1998 Jetta
Other than the legal/safety tank issues, are there any drawbacks? I saw some german kits that had LPG tanks that fit in the spare tire compartement. Often our goverment outlaws things out of fear & ignorance and very little facts or data yet permit very deadly products if the Lobby group is paying them enough. Ex, Pirahnas are illegal in many states because of how they are portrayed in movies (I owned 6 giant Caribaye Pirahnas with out ever coming close to any biting) and in recent history the federal goverment allowed the use of LEAD and ABESTOS in several products dispite science proving their dangerous affects on health and the enviroment. Mainly because the lobby groups where so influential with $$$. The oil companies want us hooked on their fuel. If a LPG or CNG blend makes us use less of their stuff, they are pissed.
 
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MoldovaDIZEL

Vendor
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Location
Toronto/Guelph
TDI
mk4 TDI, 98 Cabrio AAZ
If you want 70MPG, import a 1.2TDI, swap it into a MK2 and be done with it.

:)
propane is not just for fuel eco, Polish and Hungarian guys have it on their 300+ hp tdis....

and as far as i know they did lobby it but the money needed to make any major changes far exceeded what anyone is willing to pay,so of course that way everyone keep buying more fuel and pays taxes.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Other than the legal/safety tank issues, are there any drawbacks? I saw some german kits that had LPG tanks that fit in the spare tire compartement. Often our goverment outlaws things out of fear & ignorance and very little facts or data yet permit very deadly products if the Lobby group is paying them enough. Ex, Pirahnas are illegal in many states because of how they are portrayed in movies (I owned 6 giant Caribaye Pirahnas with out ever coming close to any biting) and in recent history the federal goverment allowed the use of LEAD and ABESTOS in several products dispite science proving their dangerous affects on health and the enviroment. Mainly because the lobby groups where so influential with $$$. The oil companies want us hooked on their fuel. If a LPG or CNG blend makes us use less of their stuff, they are pissed.
The legal/safety tank issues ARE the big issues.

Installing the tank in the spare tire compartment means the tank is inside the passenger compartment, which means a leak fills the interior with propane. That + lit cigarette, or pressing a switch that makes a tiny spark ... kaBOOM. And if the vehicle gets hit from behind in a collision ... ? ? ?

Sometimes this "safety" stuff really is for your own protection. (And yes, there are some people out there who are only capable of learning this the hard way.)

Aside from that, propane injection can send peak cylinder pressure through the roof if overdone, which is a good way to blow head gaskets and melt pistons. I've never been a fan of it.
 

Mikkijayne

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Devon, UK
TDI
Audi S8
The legal/safety tank issues ARE the big issues.

Installing the tank in the spare tire compartment means the tank is inside the passenger compartment, which means a leak fills the interior with propane. That + lit cigarette, or pressing a switch that makes a tiny spark ... kaBOOM. And if the vehicle gets hit from behind in a collision ... ? ? ?
These tanks are perfectly safe and legal in Europe. They are so overbuilt that they can easily withstand a rear impact. They have all the connections and valves inside a gas-tight enclosure on the side of the tank which is vented to outside the vehicle so there is no chance of them leaking in to the passenger compartment.

For a while you could buy GM vehicles with LPG installed from the factory, meaning they passed all the standard Euro crash tests.

 

loudspl

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Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
Propane is a fuel, not a catalyst. If you don't need extra beyond easy pump/injector mods why bother?

LPG has a lower flash point, but higher autoignition. What this means is that propane can burn and continue to burn at lower temperatures than diesel, but ignites without a spark at higher temperatures than diesel. Now before you say this is proof that propane won't pre-detonate, wait just a minute. The autoignition temperature rating of propane is at atmospheric. Once inside the cylinder, it becomes pressurized. Because propane is in a gas state (and gasses compress), that autoignition temperature drops significantly when under pressure. Diesel is injected as a fine mist - meaning its not in gas form, but rather still a liquid. So now, you have a piston moving up, compressing the propane, and as it approaches TDC it reaches the pressure/temp point of autoignition. Here's the catch - if you are running larger amounts of propane for power gains, that autoignition point can be reached well BEFORE the diesel is injected..

Propane burns faster than diesel. Nearly as fast as gasoline. What this translates to in a diesel engine: a more uncontrolled and rapid explosion. This pre-ignition is hard on any engine, even diesels. If you were to graph PCP, you would see a faster rising, faster falling, and higher spiking curve when using propane. This is not good at all for diesel engine longevity. A more gradual rising and falling cylinder pressure (smooth curve) will produce lots of power at greater reliability..


From my experience, pound for pound, progressive N2O in an overfueled diesel that is tuned for it (reduced timing, SOI) works better than LPG. A PWM progressive controller also smooths the delivery, much easier on internals than just WOT activation


But there are downsides to N2O. It's very expensive to refill the bottle ($4 to $5/lb.). It's not really for FE because like LPG, you will run out of it fast. It requires special tuning. Compressed gas of any kind also adds unsprung weight to your car (look at CNG tanks lol). And don't forget the safety factor as previously mentioned. Something as simple as a bad solenoid or switch can ruin your day real fast..

Remember this? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nYXkKN1k7M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hxOoM0-NJI
 

70MPG-goal

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
To prevent pre-ignition (aka detonation) with propane you need an air/fuel mix that is too lean to self-ignite. Propane needs a 14:1 compression ratio to detonate. According to EcoDiesel, low levels of propane help burn 100% of your diesel and speeds up the burning time.
I think the problems are from the people that used it for way too much power, got too much propane following and caused too much internal stress. Personnally I like the Clean burning and improved efficiency aspects.
I'd only go with those German spare tire tanks because using a BBQ tank and finding a crater where I last parked my car isn't something I'd like.
Does anyone know of anyone that tried it?
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta
I have not tired LPG in a TDI, but have in an Olds 5.7 - it was not controllable and ran on it's own and took out the head gaskets in 20 miles. Not that that's saying much on that engine, but it would randomly knock really hard, surges in power, etc.

If propane needs a 14:1 CR to detonate as you say, then the 19.5:1 CR in most TDI's kinds of dismisses it right away.

When going for peak efficiency you're typically not anywhere near peak power, so on a diesel, you have significantly excess air in the combustion chamber. There's sufficient tumble/swirl in the combustion chamber and so much excess air that I don't think there's a lot to be gained in regards to combustion efficiency. If you normalize the overall energy consumption back to 100% diesel fuel, you won't see much if any actual gains in MPG.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The lean combustibility limit doesn't apply when the bulk temperature of the air/fuel mixture exceeds the self-ignition temperature. All the lean combustibility limit means is that at normal ambient temperature and pressure, there is not enough energy in a spark to cause ignition. If you raise the temperature, much less additional energy is required (smaller spark) to cause ignition. Raise it enough - beyond the ignition temperature - and the fuel is going to burn, lean or otherwise. I don't know if 19:1 compression is enough for propane and air to reach the self-ignition temperature, but at a minimum, it's going to be pretty far into a detonation regime once ignition (e.g. by diesel fuel) does occur.

The propane tank shown above - obviously professionally designed for the application! - looks interesting. If it has passed the certification tests, that's good. I'm quite sure that in the OEM application, this is meant for use with a spark-ignition engine, not as a supplement to a diesel engine ... but the tank is the same. The OEM's don't build dual-fuel systems for diesel engines.
 

70MPG-goal

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
Propane is a fuel, not a catalyst. If you don't need extra beyond easy pump/injector mods why bother?

LPG has a lower flash point, but higher autoignition. What this means is that propane can burn and continue to burn at lower temperatures than diesel, but ignites without a spark at higher temperatures than diesel. Now before you say this is proof that propane won't pre-detonate, wait just a minute. The autoignition temperature rating of propane is at atmospheric. Once inside the cylinder, it becomes pressurized. Because propane is in a gas state (and gasses compress), that autoignition temperature drops significantly when under pressure. Diesel is injected as a fine mist - meaning its not in gas form, but rather still a liquid. So now, you have a piston moving up, compressing the propane, and as it approaches TDC it reaches the pressure/temp point of autoignition. Here's the catch - if you are running larger amounts of propane for power gains, that autoignition point can be reached well BEFORE the diesel is injected..

Propane burns faster than diesel. Nearly as fast as gasoline. What this translates to in a diesel engine: a more uncontrolled and rapid explosion. This pre-ignition is hard on any engine, even diesels. If you were to graph PCP, you would see a faster rising, faster falling, and higher spiking curve when using propane. This is not good at all for diesel engine longevity. A more gradual rising and falling cylinder pressure (smooth curve) will produce lots of power at greater reliability..


From my experience, pound for pound, progressive N2O in an overfueled diesel that is tuned for it (reduced timing, SOI) works better than LPG. A PWM progressive controller also smooths the delivery, much easier on internals than just WOT activation


But there are downsides to N2O. It's very expensive to refill the bottle ($4 to $5/lb.). It's not really for FE because like LPG, you will run out of it fast. It requires special tuning. Compressed gas of any kind also adds unsprung weight to your car (look at CNG tanks lol). And don't forget the safety factor as previously mentioned. Something as simple as a bad solenoid or switch can ruin your day real fast..

Remember this? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nYXkKN1k7M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hxOoM0-NJI
do not confuse Catalyst with the chemical type.:mad: Think of it as the Promoter type.:rolleyes:
(def.Wikipedia: Catalyst that SPEEDS up the reaction is a positive Catalyst. (reaction for our engine is the ignition, burning speeded up by propane).
Substance that increase the activity of the catalyst is called a promoter.)
Catalytic reactions have a lower rate-limiting of free energy of activation than corresponing uncatalysed reaction, resulting higher reaction rate at the same temperature.
Thats means a propane/diesel mix will give a more powerful push on the down stroke of the piston compared to diesel alone, meaning an extra push without raising EGTs.
The CATALYTIC reaction NEEDS the compression of air in the combustion chamber mixed with fuel for a reaction to occur (IGNITION).
The Propane will PROMOTE the ignition of diesel/air mix under high compression and provide a CLEANER and COMPLETE combustion (combustion=reaction... of fuel/air mix under pressure).
Take any one out (compression, fuel or air)of the equation, and there will be no reaction (combustion).
So we are all on the same page, view propane as a PROMOTER to our reaction of combusting.
Not trying to offened anyone, just trying to clarify the use of the word CATALYST. A fuel can BEHAVE like a catalyst.
 
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70MPG-goal

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
The lean combustibility limit doesn't apply when the bulk temperature of the air/fuel mixture exceeds the self-ignition temperature. All the lean combustibility limit means is that at normal ambient temperature and pressure, there is not enough energy in a spark to cause ignition. If you raise the temperature, much less additional energy is required (smaller spark) to cause ignition. Raise it enough - beyond the ignition temperature - and the fuel is going to burn, lean or otherwise. I don't know if 19:1 compression is enough for propane and air to reach the self-ignition temperature, but at a minimum, it's going to be pretty far into a detonation regime once ignition (e.g. by diesel fuel) does occur.

The propane tank shown above - obviously professionally designed for the application! - looks interesting. If it has passed the certification tests, that's good. I'm quite sure that in the OEM application, this is meant for use with a spark-ignition engine, not as a supplement to a diesel engine ... but the tank is the same. The OEM's don't build dual-fuel systems for diesel engines.
In the right AIR/FUEL mix propane is like a 105-110 octane rating fuel that needs a compression ratio of 14:1. If the fuel/air mix it too lean, it will not self-ignite (detonate). The lean mixture will only burn after the onset of the diesel injection ignites, and it will help this diesel burn faster and completely as propane has a faster burn rate. It was and still is used in many Diesel Trucks with promising results, but needs to be monitored.
 

TomB

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Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
Cle Elum, Washington/Las Vegas, Nevada
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2015 Audi TDI Prestige Sport
What is with this every few months? Someone posts another thread on this topic that has been discussed ad-nauseum and refuted over and over.

Do they think we will buy their product just because they keep posting on here?

This subject needs to be banned just like other snake oil postings on this board.
 

70MPG-goal

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
What is with this every few months? Someone posts another thread on this topic that has been discussed ad-nauseum and refuted over and over.

Do they think we will buy their product just because they keep posting on here?

This subject needs to be banned just like other snake oil postings on this board.
Really? I just became a member so I wouldn't know of past trends. Just hoping of finding someone that did the test befor I do. As for the Snake oil comment, let it be known that propane does add power for real.
my goal is to find out if it's worth the hassel.
 

cmrn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
What gen tdi are we talking about? A lot of people jump to conclusions when talking about injecting propane into tdis. I had the bullydog on my mkvi and if i had went through with the build i was plannign it would have neen sick but i shortly removed it. My attention was drawn to my new gli. What was posted before was correct about the compression ratio. But thos preignition concerns can be delt with with running the lpg extreamly lean and with that, if your planning on installing propane on an engine with 18:1 cr then you can potentally run more lpg than say and old 1.6 idi. Diesel engines run lean naturally so theres a bunch of unutalized oxygen in the engine. Using that o2 with lpg allows the potential for more power but also greater efficency. As the rate of burn is faster with lpg it allows the diesel itself to burn more efficently and if you lean it our proparly the lpg will only ignite after the diesel has combusted.

Things to remember:
Never run on a cold engine.
Its better to inject closer to the engine, not preturbo.
Have an auto shut off but always run the engine a little without lpg before shut down.
If your installing inside a vehicle make sue the propane tanks pressure release valve has a pathway outside your vehicle.

The basics.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
 

JasonG

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Location
Warwick N.Y.
TDI
1994, 2003 JSW (sold), 2012 Jetta
What is with this every few months? Someone posts another thread on this topic that has been discussed ad-nauseum and refuted over and over.

Do they think we will buy their product just because they keep posting on here?

This subject needs to be banned just like other snake oil postings on this board.
Folks, this is why bully dog has pulled this product from their line.


if I had gone through with out as I was planning
need we say more....
 

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
do not confuse Catalyst with the chemical type.:mad: Think of it as the Promoter type.:rolleyes:
(def.Wikipedia: Catalyst that SPEEDS up the reaction is a positive Catalyst. (reaction for our engine is the ignition, burning speeded up by propane).
Substance that increase the activity of the catalyst is called a promoter.)
Catalytic reactions have a lower rate-limiting of free energy of activation than corresponing uncatalysed reaction, resulting higher reaction rate at the same temperature.
Thats means a propane/diesel mix will give a more powerful push on the down stroke of the piston compared to diesel alone, meaning an extra push without raising EGTs.
The CATALYTIC reaction NEEDS the compression of air in the combustion chamber mixed with fuel for a reaction to occur (IGNITION).
The Propane will PROMOTE the ignition of diesel/air mix under high compression and provide a CLEANER and COMPLETE combustion (combustion=reaction... of fuel/air mix under pressure).
Take any one out (compression, fuel or air)of the equation, and there will be no reaction (combustion).
So we are all on the same page, view propane as a PROMOTER to our reaction of combusting.
Not trying to offened anyone, just trying to clarify the use of the word CATALYST. A fuel can BEHAVE like a catalyst.
So are you saying LPG isn't a FUEL when injected in a diesel application?

If it's not a fuel, then it wouldn't negatively impact EGTs

Wouldn't the increased unsprung weight of LPG tanks AND the necessity to run extremely low CR (avoiding detonation) yield efficiency LOSS in a diesel application??

Why bother with LPG unless you need extra fuel beyond available delivery mods?

FWIW, this is the POWER section...and for that purpose, N2O > LPG :)
 

cmrn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
need we say more....
True. Gf drives the tdi now, she didnt like the idea of driving around with a propane tank in the back.

Btw. If anyone is looking to do a lpg system look up Prins diesel blend. Its what i was going to switch to but its expensive. About 5 grand for install. Maybe if i build up the golf ill explore this option again.

http://www.prinsautogas.com/en/products/dieselblend_system/dieselblend_system.html



Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
 

DubNation

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Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Location
NE ohio
TDI
02,jet,02 golf,03 bug and still looking
my buddies had been using propane on there pulling trucks to get amazing numbers....... and then realized meth/water injection works better and is way safer.


and probibly wont scare people riding in your car with you lol
 

70MPG-goal

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
So are you saying LPG isn't a FUEL when injected in a diesel application?

If it's not a fuel, then it wouldn't negatively impact EGTs

Wouldn't the increased unsprung weight of LPG tanks AND the necessity to run extremely low CR (avoiding detonation) yield efficiency LOSS in a diesel application??

Why bother with LPG unless you need extra fuel beyond available delivery mods?

FWIW, this is the POWER section...and for that purpose, N2O > LPG :)
Never said it's not a fuel, but ACTS like a CATALYST by PROMOTING (the same way a catalyst does) the effect of the DIESEL FUEL. If any fuel is too LEAN in any AIR/FUEL mix there will be no COMBUSTION (Reaction)! So in an extro lean PropaneFuel/Air Mix there will be no combustion at any compression ratio as the LEAN mix PREVENTS COMBUSTION. Problem occur when a rich amount of propane is used and cause preignition. Just like NOX the wrong blend will destroy any engine. If someone wishes to run only propane (like a forklift) then a 14:1 compression ratio is best. Ever wonder why those american FLEX FUEL cars run so poorly on E85? Because E85 needs a 13:1 C/R but this would make it impossible to even run RON rating of 93octane. To make it run 87 octane it has low C/R under 10:1, but whenever on E85 (that's like racing alcohol fuel) it run on a rich blend (more fuel) to burn.
Any mixture to LEAN to self ignite can't damage a diesel as only pre-ignition will damage it. No one is talking about running only propane as the only fuel.
 

70MPG-goal

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Location
Quebec, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta
What gen tdi are we talking about? A lot of people jump to conclusions when talking about injecting propane into tdis. I had the bullydog on my mkvi and if i had went through with the build i was plannign it would have neen sick but i shortly removed it. My attention was drawn to my new gli. What was posted before was correct about the compression ratio. But thos preignition concerns can be delt with with running the lpg extreamly lean and with that, if your planning on installing propane on an engine with 18:1 cr then you can potentally run more lpg than say and old 1.6 idi. Diesel engines run lean naturally so theres a bunch of unutalized oxygen in the engine. Using that o2 with lpg allows the potential for more power but also greater efficency. As the rate of burn is faster with lpg it allows the diesel itself to burn more efficently and if you lean it our proparly the lpg will only ignite after the diesel has combusted.

Things to remember:
Never run on a cold engine.
Its better to inject closer to the engine, not preturbo.
Have an auto shut off but always run the engine a little without lpg before shut down.
If your installing inside a vehicle make sue the propane tanks pressure release valve has a pathway outside your vehicle.

The basics.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Here's someone who understands how to use propane on a TDI!
 

SuperAdellic

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Location
Beaufort, SC
TDI
None
FWIW, Merriam Webster defines catalyst as follows:
1: a substance that enables a chemical reaction to proceed at a usually faster rate or under different conditions (as at a lower temperature) than otherwise possible
2: an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action

70MPG-goal, what are you trying to achieve with possibly using propane in a TDI? If it is to save fuel, as you member name implies, then I can assure you that you will not do it using propane in conjunction with diesel. Taken terms of energy content, diesel has significantly more energy than propane, 139,200 BTU per US gallon for diesel vs 91,500 BTU per US gallon of propane. This means you would have to burn approximately 1.52 gallons of propane in place of 1 gallon of diesel to get the same amount of energy. I understand that propane burns more completely as a fuel but that is not enough to make up the energy content difference. Basically, you will reduce your overall fuel efficiency (gallons of diesel and propane burned combined vs. diesel alone).
If you desire more power and larger injector nozzles combined with tuning does not meet your needs, at least two more effective or safer alternatives have been proposed.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Another criteria for something being a "catalyst" as opposed to a "reactant" is that a "catalyst" is not consumed by the reaction itself. If the substance is consumed by the reaction then it is a "reactant", not a "catalyst".

The platinum in a catalytic converter is a "catalyst".

Propane fed into the air intake of an otherwise diesel engine is a "reactant".
 
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