ProMaster diesel info

Ian F

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Sep 26, 2002
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Jetta Wagon, 2003, Indigo Blue
Sadly, I no longer own a TDI, but this is the only diesel forum I trust...

An associate has a ProMaster diesel. I'm wondering if there are any good online sources for information about them. Service. Maintenance. Common issues, etc.

(I'm still in the diesel community - currently own a 1992 E350 with a 7.3 IDI)

Thanks!
 

T1MMBOJONES

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Milwaukee
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03 ALH 01M wagon
nice, i own an 01 E350 7.3l PSD aswell as my 13 JSW (CJAA) i have no real help for you or your friend. i havent read much good about the pro masters in general but the internet would steer me away from my current tdi aswell....
 

d24tdi

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MT
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A buddy of mine has had a couple and still has one.

He really likes driving it (and I liked it the one time I rode in it). Good power and mileage, reasonably quiet and smooth. It's a work van for him and puts on lots of high speed highway miles on the passes up here in the Rockies. Sounds like it performs great.

However, he is afraid of owning it for the long term. He had two and sold one when it went out of warranty. The one he still has is under extended warranty coverage of some kind but I think he wants to get rid of it too once that's expired. According to him there are various potential issues.... glow plugs, DEF system service/parts availability, and trans service. It has a single clutch automated manual transmission that seemed to work nicely when I rode in the van but apparently finding someone competent to work on this engine and trans is very difficult. Granted that is here in Montana where population is sparse. If you have major urban areas around you with a big dealership maybe you would have better luck.

All around though, from everything I can tell it's hard to make a good argument for the ProMaster diesel versus a far more common and robust Sprinter diesel from a similar year. Yeah the Sprinter probably would cost more upfront but in terms of keeping it going for the long term, far easier due to much greater numbers on the road, and probably less cost in the end. I'm not sure there's a single thing to recommend the ProMaster as an alternative other than possibly price.

My buddy bought two TDI-swapped Eurovans and those are his solution to moving away from the diesel ProMasters. He also bought a gas ProMaster. Apparently those have their own issues but at least parts/know-how for keeping them going are much easier to come by. The TDI Eurovans of course will be bombproof.

And your IDI Ford will probably run forever too, hard to see any ProMaster beating that on long term outcomes. If it were me I'd keep that on the road and enjoy. Those engines aren't power houses but hard to find anything more simple and tough.
 

T1MMBOJONES

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03 ALH 01M wagon
my ford is about 10 years post idi but yeah ive owned it ten out of its 22 years and racked up most the miles. mileage growth has gone way down since purchasing my first tdi in 2019 but its still got around 250,000 miles and is going strong. sadly wisconsin winters have done a toll on its undercairage but it does what i need when i need it to. that said there isnt a whole lot i havent replaced on it....
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
The Iveco engine is great. The transmission actually isn't too bad either.

BUT... the rarity [here] and parts availability, coupled with it being a rebadged brand and now FCA has become yet another entity (Stellantis), taking care of them may become more difficult moving forward.

The Promasters with the leftover minivan powertrains are junk, but at least for the most part everyone knows what a turd the Pentastar and the 62TE transmission is, but they have another set of oddities in that they are made for this market only so all the hodge-podge specific parts for those are always seemingly in short supply. We went through a six month period waiting for drive axles for them. At least the diesels are all Fiat, save for the badges.

The newest versions bid farewell to the troublesome ChryCo slushbox in favor of a ZF unit, so at least there's that going for them. Probably still a light duty unit, though.

Sprinter is leaps and bounds a superior vehicle.
 
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d24tdi

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Yeah. It seems like the diesels in particular are doomed to become orphan vehicles in terms of parts/service support over the long term. An engine and trans that are not used in any other vehicle sold in the US and only in very small numbers in the ProMaster..... No parts or service commonality.... Zero familiarity from your average independent garage and probably little or none from most dealers....

At least as OH points out it is a common engine elsewhere in the world. So at least even if parts supply gets difficult here it would probably not be hard to get needed parts from overseas. Notwithstanding what I assume are probably at least a few differences in the US models when it comes to emission control parts.

I remember thinking when they came out it was surprising that FCA even went to the effort and expense to go through EPA/CARB emissions cert for this engine given its unique/limited use and guaranteed low volume sales. It is hard to imagine they thought they were tapping into a huge market of folks wanting big European style vans with small/efficient/slow European style diesels. Maybe they were looking over at Mercedes with its success with the diesel Sprinter, and figuring they needed a diesel in their own lineup to be competitive with it. But I think their mistake was not realizing that anyone buying a ProMaster instead of a Sprinter was obviously making their decision based on lower upfront cost vs better long term value.... Why would that budget buyer then turn around and spend extra to upgrade to the diesel, especially an unknown one with no reputation? Anyone thinking that way would just buy the Sprinter instead, or maybe a Ford Transit with the 5cyl PSD.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The diesel Transits dissappeared as fast as the diesel Promaster. Probably almost as rare here too.
 

d24tdi

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Makes sense, I think I have only ever seen one in person.

One assumes Ford will do a somewhat better job supporting that engine over the long term given that it's an in-house motor from a company that has not changed ownership since it was produced. Maybe not quite as much of an orphan but still an oddball.

I figure in terms of diesel vans, an old E-250 with a 7.3L PSD would still be a far more stout option than any of them. For sure not as nice to sit in or drive as a Sprinter or a Transit but that is a vehicle that can actually do some work, haul a heavy trailer, etc. Tough parts underneath that last a long time and can be rebuilt inexpensively when they do wear out. Serious work truck front end, brakes, drivetrain, etc. They don't have the "cool" factor of the Euro-based vans though. The 7.3 IDI has all those same virtues just with a lot less power.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Are you kidding? Ford has stopped supporting engines they HAVE sold thousands of here. That 5 cyl has long since been forgotten about.
 

d24tdi

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Hah, truth is I guess I have no idea! I am a Ford fan third (VAG and old Volvos tied for first), have had a couple dozen Fords over the years, but all of mine have been common type rigs.... F series with the old Windsor or 300ci six, or 5.4/6.8L or 6.2L gassers (my current SuperDuty and my favorite Ford motor thus far), plus a couple of '90s 5.0L Mustangs. Needless to say, parts support has never been a concern whatsoever on any of those engines, either from Ford or aftermarket. Nor for the Powerstrokes I used to have to keep up for the fleet I once worked for. Didn't realize they were dropping the ball on others.

I guess it adds up that the 5cyl PSD would get the short end of the stick on parts support given that I can't think of any other vehicle that had them besides the vans for whatever short span of years they were sold. Think I remember back when they were being introduced there had been talk of F-150s or Rangers ending up with them too but I guess that never happened.

No idea what those motors were like, I thought it was a neat idea at the time to see Ford put out a 5cyl, but again never seen one up close much less tried it behind the wheel. Worked on any?

This is a thread detour from the OP's question but maybe it's relevant if he was considering the ProMaster....
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
You must live in a different universe than me. I played heck trying to get a parking brake cable for my '97 F250. EVERY part I've ever needed for my F-trucks in the last 10 years has been NLA from Ford. Factory Motor Parts (a wholesaler) often picks up Motorcraft branded stuff that Ford dropped, but even then it is spotty. EGR valve for the '96 (well, pretty much anything for the one-year-only '96) is NLA, has been for some time. They were able to get me lug nuts. Which is odd, given that those changed on the newer trucks, and don't fit anything else BUT the half-ton OBS F-trucks with the styled steel wheels.

And what is strange is, there are still a LOT of OBS (1992-96 F150, 1992-1997 F250/350) trucks still on the road here. Aftermarket parts are not too bad, but from Ford it is pretty much nada. Heck, the factory exhaust system on my dad's '99 Ranger was NLA in 2002!!! They made you change everything up to the Y-pipe to the newer type, and that became NLA about two months after the last [old] Ranger rolled off the assembly line in 2012.

But even some things in the aftermarket are really spotty, and of dubious (if not downright awful) quality.

There were three (3!) 2-valve 5.4L V8s as found in the E-van last we checked, which was only about two months ago. And when they are gone, they are gone... they won't ever build any more. All the current E-vans (which are limited to just 1-ton or greater cab-chassis only) use exclusively the 7.3L Godzilla engine bolted to the 10sp slushbox. Anything older, parts are "warehouse only", meaning, whatever they have on hand, is all they'll ever have. And again, still LOTS of E-vans out there.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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Similar experience with my '98 Ranger, Ford was out of emergency brake cables in 2002 when mine rusted out. Have a '22 Transit Connect now and after a year and four repair attempts Ford takes forever to supply a replacement 2nd row seat and when it comes it doesn't work either. It's now eligible for a lemon law buyback and I may file the paperwork just so I have an escape route when the warranty runs out.
 

d24tdi

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Interesting. Yeah I guess I have mostly just been lucky with mine and have only needed easily found parts. Everything I have ever needed has been readily available from aftermarket and seemingly good quality. I'm not trying to suggest I think Ford is the best in the industry for this by any stretch ... Just that at least where I live in the middle of nowhere, I find them not much of a struggle to keep on the road with parts I can find on local shelves, whereas my VWs, Audis, Volvos, you're ordering from out of state for even something like a fuel filter.

Surprised a Ranger e-brake cable isn't something NAPA or similar manufactures a copy of. But EFI parts for the oddball OBD2 OBS trucks I can understand being hard to get hands on.
 

d24tdi

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There are certainly still thousands of the OBS and old style E-vans on the road so I cannot imagine they will become parts orphans anytime soon. The OBS seem to have become popular for restorations these days too so the market for their parts might only grow. So maybe there's hope for good reproduction parts in the future.

Further thread derail here but --

OH, since you see all kinds of stuff, have you had any experience thus far with that 7.3L Godzilla V8? Ford now offers (with HP detuned from pickup truck applications) it in the F-650 and F-750 MD chassis with the 6R140 trans with PTO capability. Pretty compelling option versus a modern diesel with emissions vulnerabilities. The fleet of refuse trucks I manage now has a few older FL and IHC diesel chassis in the stable and I hate the idea of replacing them with a new diesel but they are getting tired. Ford's chassis is the only medium duty gasser out there. I never much liked the idea of a high revving 6.8L V10 in this size truck, which was the previous gas option, but like the power curve on the 7.3L. Gas engine upfront cost is far lower, fuel cost is 50 cents to a dollar cheaper than diesel currently (plus DEF), effortless cold starting even on the -40F mornings, routine maintenance cost far lower for the gasser, no DPF/SCR risks which are pretty serious on our trucks that spend a lot of time idling or on the PTO in frigid weather, and if it ever came time for a major engine repair you can buy a complete drop-in replacement gas engine for less than the cost of many common repairs on the Cummins. Downsides are of course fuel economy and possible engine life, though I'm not convinced on the second one that it'd really be any different than a B6.7. So I am kind of talking myself into it but I have never had firsthand contact with the motor in terms of how they hold up. Do you see them come through your universe?
 

gearheadgrrrl

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Interesting. Yeah I guess I have mostly just been lucky with mine and have only needed easily found parts. Everything I have ever needed has been readily available from aftermarket and seemingly good quality. I'm not trying to suggest I think Ford is the best in the industry for this by any stretch ... Just that at least where I live in the middle of nowhere, I find them not much of a struggle to keep on the road with parts I can find on local shelves, whereas my VWs, Audis, Volvos, you're ordering from out of state for even something like a fuel filter.

Surprised a Ranger e-brake cable isn't something NAPA or similar manufactures a copy of. But EFI parts for the oddball OBD2 OBS trucks I can understand being hard to get hands on.
NAPA listed 3 different e-brake cables and had a nice local franchise then that let me order all 3 and return the ones that didn't fit. One fit, but not that well.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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There are certainly still thousands of the OBS and old style E-vans on the road so I cannot imagine they will become parts orphans anytime soon. The OBS seem to have become popular for restorations these days too so the market for their parts might only grow. So maybe there's hope for good reproduction parts in the future.

Further thread derail here but --

OH, since you see all kinds of stuff, have you had any experience thus far with that 7.3L Godzilla V8? Ford now offers (with HP detuned from pickup truck applications) it in the F-650 and F-750 MD chassis with the 6R140 trans with PTO capability. Pretty compelling option versus a modern diesel with emissions vulnerabilities. The fleet of refuse trucks I manage now has a few older FL and IHC diesel chassis in the stable and I hate the idea of replacing them with a new diesel but they are getting tired. Ford's chassis is the only medium duty gasser out there. I never much liked the idea of a high revving 6.8L V10 in this size truck, which was the previous gas option, but like the power curve on the 7.3L. Gas engine upfront cost is far lower, fuel cost is 50 cents to a dollar cheaper than diesel currently (plus DEF), effortless cold starting even on the -40F mornings, routine maintenance cost far lower for the gasser, no DPF/SCR risks which are pretty serious on our trucks that spend a lot of time idling or on the PTO in frigid weather, and if it ever came time for a major engine repair you can buy a complete drop-in replacement gas engine for less than the cost of many common repairs on the Cummins. Downsides are of course fuel economy and possible engine life, though I'm not convinced on the second one that it'd really be any different than a B6.7. So I am kind of talking myself into it but I have never had firsthand contact with the motor in terms of how they hold up. Do you see them come through your universe?
I'm on a Ford forum and have heard no complaints about the 7.3, other than the Mustang lovers that think Ford should put it in the Mustang! Sounds like you keep your trucks a long time, so probably need to look at your trucks duty cycle and figure out how many more $$$ the gasser will use vs. the savings in initial cost and emissions maintenance.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I would look at a Hino truck over the Fords. That Godzilla engine is decent enough, but it will be working really, really hard in something bigger. Toyota makes an excellent cab, and you get a Cummins engine and Allison transmission, which probably is as good as the smaller Toyota/Aisin units they had on offer previously.

I don't mess with that end of stuff, thankfully, but I do know a couple folks that do... Too bad you cannot get anything with a proper manual anymore, but at least those are actual truck transmissions.

But honestly, the choices are so limited and bleak thanks to the US legislating itself into a pretty bad position for that segment. You've really got a poor showing of what is available globally. Shame. Because Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, Paccar, Volkswagen (via Scania, MAN, and now IH), Toyota (Hino) and others really have some neat offerings that we simply cannot have here. And the lack of engine/transmission choices is pretty appalling, too. Caterpillar is gone. MB is gone (save for their Detroit Diesel division). I think Hino and UD and others are all just sticking the same Cummins engines in everything, and the "new" IH engine is just a revamped Scania design which may or may not prove its worth in this market. But given the crazy draconian regulations, it'll probably suffer like the MB-E series did.

I just think how well our 1994 IH 4700 ran, with its big DT466 engine. Simple, sturdy, Bosch inline pump, no electronics, no aftertreatment, no nothing. It always started, always ran perfect, had a crap ton of power (seriously, that thing ran BETTER the more it got loaded), and its 7sp MANual transmission always worked dependably... and this was after 10 years as a MODOT service truck, plus another 8 years working as a construction truck with a trailer dragging a big ass skid steer all over the place. They just don't (can't , won't) make them like that anymore. And the crazy thing is, that truck didn't smoke, didn't "stink" (you had to hoist your face up by the stack to even smell anything), and it required very, very little parts or effort to keep operating.

 
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jmodge

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DT466’s are awesome. The ONLY problems we ever had in our fleet with those were rust related. Oil pans and crust behind the fuel rail causing fuel seepage. Easy fixes, those engines never failed to do whatever they were called on for.
Then came emissions. International had EGR coolers that leaked as soon as coolant touched them, and Mack’s had daily exhaust issues.
Haven’t touched one in 6 years this Friday. I think it’s time I celebrated.....again
 

T1MMBOJONES

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Milwaukee
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03 ALH 01M wagon
Makes sense, I think I have only ever seen one in person.

One assumes Ford will do a somewhat better job supporting that engine over the long term given that it's an in-house motor from a company that has not changed ownership since it was produced. Maybe not quite as much of an orphan but still an oddball.

I figure in terms of diesel vans, an old E-250 with a 7.3L PSD would still be a far more stout option than any of them. For sure not as nice to sit in or drive as a Sprinter or a Transit but that is a vehicle that can actually do some work, haul a heavy trailer, etc. Tough parts underneath that last a long time and can be rebuilt inexpensively when they do wear out. Serious work truck front end, brakes, drivetrain, etc. They don't have the "cool" factor of the Euro-based vans though. The 7.3 IDI has all those same virtues just with a lot less power.
ill pay for it if you find an E250 with a 7.3l PSD.....
 

d24tdi

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MT
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Yeah I liked the older pre-emission Hinos with the Toyota J08E motor. We had a couple in a previous fleet I worked for. Clean running, easy starting, never seemed to have much go wrong with them. I don't know that there's all that much to recommend the Hino truck now that it has a Cummins though. The closest Hino dealers for us here in Montana are two states away in either Denver or Spokane so that kind of rules them out in terms of parts/service support. Pretty much forced to stick with what is sold out here, which means Freightliner, International, Ford, or Chevy. Mack or Volvo if I wanted to get adventurous, but I don't find the new Mack MD platform that exciting. Take an OTR semi truck cab that they have been using since the '90s, stick a short hood on it and a Cummins/Allison underneath.... Great effort.

We have 4 electronic DT466's in the current fleet, two EPA98 units (12 valve head, wastegaste turbo, no EGR), and two EPA04 units with VGT, 24 valve heads, EGR. I love the early ones. Similar injection system to a 7.3L PSD, trouble-free, easy starting even with no intake heater or glow plugs. The later EPA04 ones have had EGR cooler failures, VGT failures, and constant injection system issues. FICMs burning up every time someone runs the batteries down, hard starting, injector failures, stiction problems... Sound like a 6.0L PSD? Yeah, because it's all that same stuff. I would like to see those go away. They run nice once when everything is right, though, again like a 6.0L.

The DT motors are one of the only medium range motors with replaceable liners. The other one I like is the Isuzu 6HK1. But like the Hino motor and almost all others, it's been replaced by the Cummins/Allison in current era models. Hard to see that combo as very attractive compared to a 20-year-old pre-emission DT466E, or even an old CAT 3126 or MBE 900. We have a few of those as well. Hence the challenge of replacing any of them.

At least at the pickup truck scale, I can't see how a modern diesel pencils out anymore vs a modern gasser like the 7.3L in terms of reliability and long term ownership cost. My question is whether that may be true up in the Class 6 category too. Might have to try one and find out.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Sadly, I no longer own a TDI, but this is the only diesel forum I trust...

An associate has a ProMaster diesel. I'm wondering if there are any good online sources for information about them. Service. Maintenance. Common issues, etc.

(I'm still in the diesel community - currently own a 1992 E350 with a 7.3 IDI)

Thanks!
Nice. I've heard those IDI's were fairly decent. I had the chance to buy one at government auction in 2018 with 36K miles on it (assuming the odometer didn't roll over). I think it sold for like 5-6K? Ended up buying my 1995 F-450 from the same government agency - early 7.3 PSD.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
I just think how well our 1994 IH 4700 ran, with its big DT466 engine. Simple, sturdy, Bosch inline pump, no electronics, no aftertreatment, no nothing. It always started, always ran perfect, had a crap ton of power (seriously, that thing ran BETTER the more it got loaded), and its 7sp MANual transmission always worked dependably... and this was after 10 years as a MODOT service truck, plus another 8 years working as a construction truck with a trailer dragging a big ass skid steer all over the place. They just don't (can't , won't) make them like that anymore. And the crazy thing is, that truck didn't smoke, didn't "stink" (you had to hoist your face up by the stack to even smell anything), and it required very, very little parts or effort to keep operating.

Out of curiosity, what were FE numbers on that truck, compared to the 7.3 PSD (non-intercooled version)? Longevity is about the same as well? I'll probably have my F-Super until it dies, but I did look at an older Kodiak or DT466 powered truck in the past as a farm truck.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Nobody ever checked how much fuel it used, because we didn't use it regularly enough, and when we did, it was often only around the property in 1st and 2nd gear, with lots of idle and loading/dumping.

And as to rust... yes, it had before we got it had its floorboards cut out and replaced. It was a salt-spreader plow truck for MODOT when it was new, so it spent a decade in a constant brine bath. But they did try and do their best to keep it up, as it had been coated with gooey stuff all over underneath.

They don't even mess with that anymore, as they don't keep the trucks as long. They can't. They don't last as long. The specter of the $6k transmission rebuild (no manuals after a certain point) and the emissions control devices on the newer engines makes the state send them to auction much, much sooner than they used to. You really have to wonder how much "clean air" is spent on manufacturing and maintaining things that only last a third as long.

BTW, this truck was purchased by a coworker of mine.... it is STILL in use. Nearly 30 years later. Engine and transmission never been apart (it has had a clutch replaced). Show me ANY new truck today that in 2053 will be able to claim that. Legislation has made it so.
 

d24tdi

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MT
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96 B4V
Those old IH trucks were tough but I never liked how old fashioned the cabs were. Not a good place to spend a long day on the road. Lots of exposed painted metal, bad driving position, no tilt wheel, small windows, poor visibility and ventilation, hot, terrible ride, loud as hell. They were stout trucks and lasted forever but they wore you out if you had to be behind the wheel for more than a few minutes.

The one "good" thing to say about the current crop of MD platforms is that your choice becomes fairly simple due to the fact that there is almost zero selection in terms of mechanical parts. They all use the same stuff underneath... Cummins 6.7L, Allison 2000 series automatic, Dana or Rockwell axles and steering, Bendix brake systems. So that's the stuff you're gonna get and you just choose what body/cab you and your drivers like best and/or who is your closest or most helpful dealer. International, FL, Kenwoth/Pete, Hino, Isuzu, Mack, etc. All buy the same gear. The only difference from the last time I looked is that Ford and GM MD trucks use their in house engines still (for now) and I think you have the option of a ZF automatic instead of the Allison in the PACCAR trucks. But otherwise the only variation is in the sheetmetal and badges. Sad, but kudos to Cummins as they apparently played the emissions game well enough that everyone else figured there was no point trying.

To me the sweet spot is the 2002-2004 IH 4300 SBA chassis. Those still used the old style 12 valve DT466E motor from the older trucks, but in the modern cab they still produce today, which is a universe ahead of the old one.... great creature comforts and ergonomics. Those trucks were kind of a parallel to the Mk4 with an ALH. All the same simplicity benefits of the prior models but also all the operational improvements that came with more modern body design. Again like with VW, the ones that came after made no real further improvements to the rest of the vehicle but added great complexity under the hood... But also again like the ALH cars, good examples are scarce now because they have all been worked into the ground and/or eaten up by 20 winters in the salt.
 

Mozambiquer

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1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI, 2005 VW Passat wagon TDI X3, 2001 VW golf TDI, 1980 VW rabbit pickup,
Sadly, I no longer own a TDI, but this is the only diesel forum I trust...

An associate has a ProMaster diesel. I'm wondering if there are any good online sources for information about them. Service. Maintenance. Common issues, etc.

(I'm still in the diesel community - currently own a 1992 E350 with a 7.3 IDI)

Thanks!
I have done quite a bit of work on diesel promasters, along with a lot of other diesels, the promaster isn't Really a very good engine, though a lot of the issues stem from information being hard to find. One customer brought theirs in and the dealer quoted them a new engine because the glow plugs were bad. The problem is that if you replace the glow plugs, they WILL break off in the head. Our one tech is really good with extractions and was able to extract them all and it worked well then. Later on it came in for all four injectors completely failed, the tips were burned off. Got a full fuel system replacement and it worked for a while until they sold it. They're definitely not easy to work on...

Now as far as the other trucks... I like the freightliner M2 chassis with the ISB Cummins best, then the Hino 238/258 we service fleets of both, and the Hinos are actually pretty decent, but a pain to work on.
The old dt466 engines were good too, though a bit low on power. Then they went to the maxxforce ones which are almost pure garbage. I dont recommend any maxxforce, from the 4.5 v6 to the 13, they're all plagued with issues.
Also the c7 cats were not very good. Whereas the old 3126 and 3116 were.
 
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