potential owner - HPFP am i overreacting?

[gravybt]

I was going to test drive a sportwagen TDI because I drive a lot and tend to keep cars for 8+ years and hundreds of thousands of miles.

But I read about the HPFP problem and took the TDI off my list. While it sounds like the problem will be addressed over time (sounds like a flaw with the fuel pump to me), VW holding customers accountable for a $10,000 repair is unconscionable to me.

Is anyone aware of any VOA communications or is this really the show stopper that I think it is?

 

[mtbr297]

Any new diesel vehicle is going to have hpfp, no matter what make or model. The all have common rails systems with hpfp. I do think vw needs an extra fuel filter though. At my work we have a lot of the new DD15 and DD13 engines. They have a huge filter/water seperator mounted on the frame we change every 60k miles and then 3 more filters on the engine that get changed annually. I think there may be some problems but not the majority of cars will have this problem. Years ago used to be 02 and earlier tdi cars had soft cams. Now it is the pd cams failing. There is always something on each year or model of engine/car that people will say is a problem with their car. Just be glad you don't own a Prius, or for that matter just about any Toyota. Don't you know their resale value has plummeted. Look at vw resale. How many 10 year old cars with 200k miles or more selling for more than $1000.00? Ten year old VW's with 200k miles sell everyday for 3-4k or more. Get an extended warranty if you are that worried about. Even if you buy a different car you will still probably buy an extended warranty. Shop around and you can get a good deal on extended warranties. By the way, welcome to the tdi club.

 

[ksing44]

I had similar reservations about getting the 2010 Golf TDI because of the HPFP, the CEL, and just the inconvenience of having to deal with getting diesel fuel. I also wanted leather seats pretty badly. In fact I test drove a GTI just the other day, to be sure about going with the Golf TDI. Even though the GTI was a joy to drive, I couldn’t bring myself to give up on the diesel.

I absolutely loved driving the Golf TDI with the 6-speed manual. I am simply going to hope for the best. If the car turns out to be a royal pain in the neck, I guess I will have to admit to my wife that she was right and that I should have gotten a new Honda Accord coupe.

 

[WVU TDI]

Until you get once of the cars and it actually has a failure, yes, you're overreacting.

 

[dpg]

just run B2 and i wouldn't worry about it.

 

[kzod]

Until you get once of the cars and it actually has a failure, yes, you're overreacting.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever read on this board. The point of buying a new car over keeping our older cars is precisely to avoid potential for expensive breakdowns. The fact that VW is failing to cover NEW car owners from what is most certainly a manufacturer design flaw is disgusting. Yes, the odds are low, but they are eliminated with any other car!

It's an inconvenience if something fails on a new car and you need to bring it in to service, but it's downright criminal when the customer is left with a $10,000 bill. Making fun of Toyota's is easy in todays climate where the owners of GM can force Mr. Toyoda to testify for overpaid politicians, but at the end of the day Toyota's are virtually bulletproof in comparison. VW/Audi owners should know better than anyone that 99.9% of unintended acceleration cases are due to driver error. As for why there's so many new unprecedented cases (even weekly now), ask yourself this, if it's a 6 year old design flaw why the huge jump of cases now? Hmmmm, could all of the front page coverage be convincing ignorant drivers that there's nothing they can do to stop their car? So why bother trying, right? Anybody who has time to call 911 on the phone to complain about the problem probably has time to put the car in neutral and use the F'ing brakes. Heck there was just a recent story about a woman, who was suffering UA in her car, and she was all prepared to crash into whatever may come and pray for the best. Thankfully at the last moment she figured something out and just barely avoided crashing her car. What did she realize? She was driving a Nissan! After that all she had to do was pull her shoe heel away from where it was jamming the gas pedal....

In any case as a person looking to buy a new car, and who's been seriously considering a TDI, this potential issue as unlikely as it may be is pushing me away from VW. Ask yourself this, if it was such a minimal issue VW should just cover it under warranty to avoid lost sales.

 

[DrewD]

I don't think you are overreacting. While the incidence of HPFP is low, the consequences are too great to ignore it considering VW's penchant for blaming fuel quality.

 

[ddschwaner]

does anyone ever think at least a good percentage of the consumer is at fault by putting gasoline in the car by accident? would you admit a 8-10k damage to the dealer for your mistake? obviously new crowds are coming to VW diesel and they had gassers for their entire lives. i believe 1 out of every 2 cases are consumer mistakes
JMO

 

[meowguy]

I was going to test drive a sportwagen TDI because I drive a lot and tend to keep cars for 8+ years and hundreds of thousands of miles.

New York is a big state. Find a dealer that gives a power train warranty on all cars they sell. Here in Maine we have the Prime Group and they have what they call "Prime for Life" when you buy one of their new cars. It's a lifetime original owner power train warranty.

i believe 1 out of every 2 cases are consumer mistakes

This is entirely possible. Loan your car to your kid, God knows what's going to happen, and they aren't going to tell you. I know this from experience when my kid used my '86 Taurus as a submarine. He blew up the engine by ingesting water.

 

[Rather Be Biking]

Is anyone aware of any VOA communications or is this really the show stopper that I think it is?

What I got from VW Customer support is that metal in the fuel filter is a "normal" part of the car breaking in. Once the pump fails (mine, at 14.5k hasn't), however, their tech people state that the entire fuel system has to be replaced because it is contaminated with metal. Make of it what you will.

Here's a photo of what VW considers "normal" break in. Some people here argue that there should be no metal dust in such a delicate fuel system. The quote I got from VW was in response to my question concerning these metal specs in my filter. I requested that they check the HPFP for abnormal wear. They refused, claiming that it's not a warranty issue as long as the car is still running. I'm very happy with the car, and see HPFP issues as isolated. I don't like VWoA's response to this issue. It indicates that they are hedging for this not to be an isolated issue, and for them to make money selling replacement parts rather than lose money on warranty claims. Others might disagree. At this point, this is what I read from their behavior. If the HPFP issue is isolated, they should step up to the plate, extend fuel system warranties when metal flakes show up, and not lose so many potential customers.

 

[ddschwaner]

i believe the way to safe guard your car investment is to make sure you get a receipt at every fill up of diesel fuel and if you do undergo this problem you can defend yourself by proving all the receipts with dates and compare it to the current mileage divided by say 35 mpg or even write down your average miles per tank on the receipt... i will be doing this when i receive my 2010 golf at the end of this month

 

[UberVW_TDI]

Does anyone know how many HPFPs have actually failed?

 

[40X40]

That is the stupidest thing I've ever read on this board. The point of buying a new car over keeping our older cars is precisely to avoid potential for expensive breakdowns. The fact that VW is failing to cover NEW car owners from what is most certainly a manufacturer design flaw is disgusting. Yes, the odds are low, but they are eliminated with any other car!

It's an inconvenience if something fails on a new car and you need to bring it in to service, but it's downright criminal when the customer is left with a $10,000 bill. Making fun of Toyota's is easy in todays climate where the owners of GM can force Mr. Toyoda to testify for overpaid politicians, but at the end of the day Toyota's are virtually bulletproof in comparison. VW/Audi owners should know better than anyone that 99.9% of unintended acceleration cases are due to driver error. As for why there's so many new unprecedented cases (even weekly now), ask yourself this, if it's a 6 year old design flaw why the huge jump of cases now? Hmmmm, could all of the front page coverage be convincing ignorant drivers that there's nothing they can do to stop their car? So why bother trying, right? Anybody who has time to call 911 on the phone to complain about the problem probably has time to put the car in neutral and use the F'ing brakes. Heck there was just a recent story about a woman, who was suffering UA in her car, and she was all prepared to crash into whatever may come and pray for the best. Thankfully at the last moment she figured something out and just barely avoided crashing her car. What did she realize? She was driving a Nissan! After that all she had to do was pull her shoe heel away from where it was jamming the gas pedal....

In any case as a person looking to buy a new car, and who's been seriously considering a TDI, this potential issue as unlikely as it may be is pushing me away from VW. Ask yourself this, if it was such a minimal issue VW should just cover it under warranty to avoid lost sales.

Do NOT buy a TDI, do NOT buy a VW of any type.

Now that someone has told you what you wanted to hear, are you happy?

In truth, there are no cars that are flawless and any diesel with a CR design has such a pump that could fail.
The VW dealer system in the USA sucks at customer service and warranty claims are not handled well at all. Owning a car is never worry free unless someone else is paying the bills and that would mean(in effect) they own it, not you. LOL
I think my TDIs are worth the effort and expense, YMMV.

Bill

 

[ksing44]

i believe the way to safe guard your car investment is to make sure you get a receipt at every fill up of diesel fuel and if you do undergo this problem you can defend yourself by proving all the receipts with dates and compare it to the current mileage divided by say 35 mpg or even write down your average miles per tank on the receipt... i will be doing this when i receive my 2010 golf at the end of this month

I was thinking the exact same thing. If I do have a problem, maybe I could sue Sunoco. Then Sunoco and VW could fight it out about who is responsible.

Funny, see below that at the BMW forums they say the VWs don't have problems.
Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries
@ http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204194
“One thing I find funny, Volkswagens 2.0L turbo 4 (which has won numerous awards) has direct injection, but there is no sign of premature fuel pump failure in those cars. I find it odd because neither BMW or VW make fuel pumps, the likely are both buying from the same supplier in Germany like Siemens VDO.”

 

[gravybt]

Do NOT buy a TDI, do NOT buy a VW of any type.

Now that someone has told you what you wanted to hear, are you happy?

That's actually not what I would like to hear -- probably not what anyone reading a VW forum wants to hear.

I'd prefer to hear this:

"Yes, I received a letter from VOA acknowledging there was a design defect / manufacturing defect / a peak in the sunspot cycle and as a result we are standing behind our product and will cover any repairs resulting from this malfunction. Once a fix has been released from engineering we will issue a recall notice."

I don't think anyone knows at what rate these problems are occurring, which is disconcerting.

I might test drive on because I'm curious about the only midpriced diesel car sold in the US, but I don't feel comfortable buying one until these problems are addressed. Maybe in a few years.

 

[jbright]

There are a great number of us on this forum driving the new cars with no problems whatsoever, and enjoying every minute of it.

 

[40X40]

That's actually not what I would like to hear -- probably not what anyone reading a VW forum wants to hear.

I'd prefer to hear this:

"Yes, I received a letter from VOA acknowledging there was a design defect / manufacturing defect / a peak in the sunspot cycle and as a result we are standing behind our product and will cover any repairs resulting from this malfunction. Once a fix has been released from engineering we will issue a recall notice."

I don't think anyone knows at what rate these problems are occurring, which is disconcerting.

I might test drive on because I'm curious about the only midpriced diesel car sold in the US, but I don't feel comfortable buying one until these problems are addressed. Maybe in a few years.

You left out the rest of my quoted post.

In truth, there are no cars that are flawless and any diesel with a CR design has such a pump that could fail.
The VW dealer system in the USA sucks at customer service and warranty claims are not handled well at all. Owning a car is never worry free unless someone else is paying the bills and that would mean(in effect) they own it, not you. LOL
I think my TDIs are worth the effort and expense, YMMV.

And BTW, I was not replying to you.....

We are TDI owners and VW enthusiasts, not mindless Fanbois.

Bill

 

[UberVW_TDI]

There are a great number of us on this forum driving the new cars with no problems whatsoever, and enjoying every minute of it.

AMEN Brother! Preach it!

I'm a first time VW and Diesel owner and I couldn't be happier with my TDI. Now that I've had it for 7500 miles I don't think I could go back to a gasser. I'm having too much fun getting 39mpg with a fun to drive car.

 

[unsub1]

AMEN Brother! Preach it!

I'm a first time VW and Diesel owner and I couldn't be happier with my TDI. Now that I've had it for 7500 miles I don't think I could go back to a gasser. I'm having too much fun getting 39mpg with a fun to drive car.

Agreed. I'm so disappointed in my 2009 JSW TDI that I'm getting a 2010 Golf TDI for my wife in a couple weeks.

 

[kzod]

The VW dealer system in the USA sucks at customer service and warranty claims are not handled well at all.

Bill

Bill, it's not that I am anti-VW, just the opposite, my first car was a GTI, and I'm still driving a 96 A4. I have no problem at all with them having some technical issues and some high risk potential failures. My problem is the fact that I expect the warranty to cover these issues over the first few years. And trust me, if all TDI buyers knew about this potential failure and the cost to them, most of them would've considered something else. Obviously it's different to learn about these things after the fact, when you have to rationalize it. But for us potential owners we have many more options.

Heck, I barely drive my car these days, so I don't need the TDI mileage. I just appreciate a car that can perform well, suit my needs, all the while being fuel efficient. But, at a bare minimum when plunking down the cash for a new car (whether it's $30,000 or $50k+ doesn't matter) I expect the car company to stand behind my purchase. Lexus does it, Hyundai does it, why can't VW?

 

[EJS]

Yes, the odds are low, but they are eliminated with any other car!
..................but at the end of the day Toyota's are virtually bulletproof in comparison. VW/Audi owners should know better than anyone that 99.9% of unintended acceleration cases are due to driver error.

Sorry I'm unfamiliar with ANY car that has a zero defect status.

How about you ask some Toyota truck owners about the "bulletproof".........or are you not including trivial things like a frame staying intact?

Could be 99.9%, but no brake override? Fail. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[meowguy]

I'm a first time VW and Diesel owner and I couldn't be happier with my TDI. Now that I've had it for 7500 miles I don't think I could go back to a gasser. I'm having too much fun getting 39mpg with a fun to drive car.

Same for me. Only change 7500 miles to 13,000. Change 39mpg to 43mpg.
As long as I have to drive 180 miles a day I'll take my chances.

 

[kzod]

Sorry I'm unfamiliar with ANY car that has a zero defect status.

How about you ask some Toyota truck owners about the "bulletproof".........or are you not including trivial things like a frame staying intact?

Could be 99.9%, but no brake override? Fail. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Again, as I said if it fails under warranty they should cover you. Apparently VW isn't. And that unfortunately is what this is about. Mini's have some reliability issues, but they have a great reputation for taking care of their cars, as does Hyundai of all companies these days.

 

[meowguy]

It's quite obvious to me that the two reasons the HPDP system would fail are because of "misfueling" and water in the fuel. It should be obvious after an inspection of your fuel system what happened. If you put in gasoline, or a full tank of water, the results would be the same. Basically the injectors and the pump would destroy themselves. It is going to be hard to ask VW to replace a system that was abused in such a way. (You could try of course.) A talk with your insurance company or the fuel supplier would be in order.

On the other hand, if the pump just blows apart on it's own, I would expect that to be a covered warranty repair. Accurate fuel and service receipts would be very helpful in making your case as stated above.

 

[ksing44]

I think I am officially putting my head in the sand about HPFP failures. I just ordered a Golf TDI. I probably could have been very happy driving a GTI gasser. It could have even had leather seats!!! I just couldn’t give up on driving the diesel. I loved the thing. I hope it doesn’t break.

 

[EJS]

Again, as I said if it fails under warranty they should cover you. Apparently VW isn't. And that unfortunately is what this is about. Mini's have some reliability issues, but they have a great reputation for taking care of their cars, as does Hyundai of all companies these days.

For some they have, some they haven't. Once case I've seen the entire inside of the fuel canister was covered in rust..........that seems to be a fuel issue. Funny there's a thread around here from a new TDi owner who's completely fed up with Hyundai - they're aware of the potential "VW doesn't back you up" and still feel is can't be worse than Hyundai. Random? Toyota's Tacoma/Tundra decision seems random.......one gets recalled, the other = no.

Point? Simple, given the complexity of vehicles these days there are bound to be some issues. And in litigation happy US where the consumer has the attitude "my car farted once, I DEMAND a new one" I'm not certain I put all the blame on companies that don't immediately jump to a conclusion.

 

[bruce846]

I would like to hear from a board member who has been denied warranty for his HPFP failure on a '09/'10 TDI... is this a gremlin, or have I missed this from somewhere else?

 

[IFRCFI]

Yes, the odds are low, but they are eliminated with any other car!

Actually, that's the stupidest thing I've heard on this board.....

 

[jnecr]

That is the stupidest thing I've ever read on this board.

Hah, says somebody who joined last month.


These trouble threads come up for every model year. It's always a different thing, it's always an over-reaction.

You can get a problem car from any manufacturer, it's part of buying a car. Get over it.

 

[lexa]

You can get a problem car from any manufacturer, it's part of buying a car. Get over it.

and how many such troubles costs owners $8K per occurrence to repair?