Potential buyer - sitting on the sidelines now

[jbright]

Can someone explain those metal flakes in people's fuel filters, yet the cars are running normally?

 

[dweisel]

Can someone explain those metal flakes in people's fuel filters, yet the cars are running normally?

Dealerships say they are normal wearing in. I say its something wearing out.

Dweisel

 

[MostroDiesel]

Dealerships say they are normal wearing in. I say its something wearing out.

My position is that the dealer is correct here. SOME metal wear is inevitable with a new product. SOME. But of course, what's the fine line across which you're staring at impending doom?

 

[Rod Bearing]

Dealerships say they are normal wearing in. I say its something wearing out.

Dweisel

I've seen a few flakes on my filter every time I put one in. This 09 - as well as the other one my daughter has in far north hinterlands of NW Minnesota - has over 50 thousand miles and both are performing perfectly.

If that means they're wearing out then I'll eat my grimy old Detroit Diesel hat.

pffft!

 

[WEC4104]

I suspect that,, about now, the OP is hoping that Honda will introduce a diesel very soon.

Actually, you will find the OP (me), sitting back with a big bowl of popcorn watching the comments fly back and forth. Aside from the pure entertainment factor, it has been a wealth of information.

While a diesel introduced by Honda would certainly quell my concerns of reliabilty (or at least dealer support), I'm afraid the overall vehicle would be as much fun to drive as an Insight. Instead, can I hope for a BMW 520d Touring for the U.S.?

 

[Bob S.]

Actually, you will find the OP (me), sitting back with a big bowl of popcorn watching the comments fly back and forth. Aside from the pure entertainment factor, it has been a wealth of information.

While a diesel introduced by Honda would certainly quell my concerns of reliabilty (or at least dealer support), I'm afraid the overall vehicle would be as much fun to drive as an Insight. Instead, can I hope for a BMW 520d Touring for the U.S.?

Your wisdom shines through.

 

[Rather Be Biking]

Conflicting Info on Metal in Fuel System

I think folks here will figure out how to recover from a hpfp failure without alot of fuss. Replacing the whole fuel system is nonsense.

We're now getting conflicting info from VW on metal in the fuel system. VW is on record stating that metal in fuel filters is normal, and that the function of the filter is to filter out such [presumably before it hits the HPFP and the rail]. Their on the record position is that metal in the filter evidences that the filter is working. On the other hand, they claim that when a pump fails, and introduces metal flakes into the fuel system, the entire system has to be replaced, even though they otherwise claim such flakes in line before the filter are normal and not problematic. Eventually they will have to reconcile these conflicting statements and actions. In the meantime, we seem to have a good sample of cars that are racking up miles despite metal in the filters (which does appear common, if not approaching "normal"). So if VWs can run with, and are presumably engineered to run with, metal in the pre-filtered fuel, than why, in the case of a HPFP failure, do they replace the entire system forward of the filter?

 

[jbright]

We're now getting conflicting info from VW on metal in the fuel system. VW is on record stating that metal in fuel filters is normal, and that the function of the filter is to filter out such [presumably before it hits the HPFP and the rail]. Their on the record position is that metal in the filter evidences that the filter is working. On the other hand, they claim that when a pump fails, and introduces metal flakes into the fuel system, the entire system has to be replaced, even though they otherwise claim such flakes in line before the filter are normal and not problematic. Eventually they will have to reconcile these conflicting statements and actions. In the meantime, we seem to have a good sample of cars that are racking up miles despite metal in the filters (which does appear common, if not approaching "normal"). So if VWs can run with, and are presumably engineered to run with, metal in the pre-filtered fuel, than why, in the case of a HPFP failure, do they replace the entire system forward of the filter?

Indeed. Now we're getting somewhere. I like your logic.

 

[WEC4104]

The question that Rather Be Biking raises is an interesting one. But as I ponder VW's apparently conflicting statements, I wonder if their response might eventually sound something like "Not all metal flakes are created equal."

Perhaps a metal flake is not a metal flake is not a metal flake. Could it be that, because of the source, the size, the material/hardness, or other attributes, some flakes are harmful and some are not? Good cholesterol, bad cholesterol?

I have no technical basis for my theory, just speculating.

 

[EJS]

We're now getting conflicting info from VW on metal in the fuel system. VW is on record stating that metal in fuel filters is normal, and that the function of the filter is to filter out such [presumably before it hits the HPFP and the rail]. Their on the record position is that metal in the filter evidences that the filter is working. On the other hand, they claim that when a pump fails, and introduces metal flakes into the fuel system, the entire system has to be replaced, even though they otherwise claim such flakes in line before the filter are normal and not problematic. Eventually they will have to reconcile these conflicting statements and actions. In the meantime, we seem to have a good sample of cars that are racking up miles despite metal in the filters (which does appear common, if not approaching "normal"). So if VWs can run with, and are presumably engineered to run with, metal in the pre-filtered fuel, than why, in the case of a HPFP failure, do they replace the entire system forward of the filter?

Outstanding! That's what I've been wondering. I've gotten the same answer from VW about metal particles & vehicle is running fine @ 25K (knocks on wood). I am in a slightly better position than most as my warranty runs to 60K (CPO) but it is very confusing.

What I find truly confusing is VW's position on the matter. This is their flagship technology in the US but they seem to feel negative PR is okay

- why are they not kicking Bosch in the arse? (I'd wager they asked if it would work on US spec fuel)

- why no simple solution? How much would a return line filter cost? (protect the fuel system)

- why no additive research? even if pricy they could mandate it & get the monkey off their back.

If it were me I'd quietly send out letters ala DSG. We've extended your warranty on the fuel system to 100k. I'd be willing to be the positive PR (wow, VW really stands behind their product) would be far more valuable than the cost of the warranty.

Herndon is 20 minutes from me - what I wouldn't give for 15 minutes of their time. Look, you have a great product - don't let negative PR ruin it.

 

[Rod Bearing]

I've been asking Bosch why as well, for over 2 years.

As I have said in several threads on this topic. I reject, REJECT.... the belief that every component in a CR HPFP system is destroyed by a failed HPFP where that HPFP loads a system with metal particles. It's utter nonsense to believe that every component is ruined.

VW uses that angle because that is the only way they can get a good result out of a repair because their dealer networks are staffed with parts changers and not technical experts.

They don't have their shops equipped to handle metals/contamination cleanups of fuel/hudraulic systems. I do.

 

[dweisel]

I've seen a few flakes on my filter every time I put one in. This 09 - as well as the other one my daughter has in far north hinterlands of NW Minnesota - has over 50 thousand miles and both are performing perfectly.

If that means they're wearing out then I'll eat my grimy old Detroit Diesel hat.

pffft!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alnmike
Welp, im at 18k miles right now, better get around to scheduling my 20k service.
I checked my fuel filter tonight by just looking at the top of it, and there were 5-6 metal flakes on the black rubber/plastic/whatever that I could see, if I looked closer, there was more tiny tiny pieces, but overall, it doesnt look bad, I can attribute a couple flakes to break-in.


And where do you suppose those tiny flakes of metal came from? Just think about this for a minute. If the flakes came from the HPFP "break in" as you think. What all did those flakes have to make it past to get back to the fuel filter? I'm not trying to be confrontational, but just think about it.


dweisel vbmenu_register("postmenu_2857099", true);
Veteran Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wheeling, West Virginia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osage Orange
Thought Id check my fuel filter prior to 20K service, looks clean of metal particulates:

Yes,that is how a fuel filter should look. PERFECTLY CLEAN!

Dweisel
__________________
09 JSW TDI Black/Anthracite 6spd Manual build date 05/09
09 Jetta Sedan Black/Anthracite 6spd Manual build date 10/08
03 Beetle Platnium Grey/Grey leather

Dweisel

 

[Rod Bearing]

If a fuel or any other filter looks perfectly clean it's either brand new or not doing it's job.

 

[dweisel]

Well Rod we may as well leave it at.....................your okay with metal in your fuel system and I'm not.

Dweisel

 

[MostroDiesel]

As I have said in several threads on this topic. I reject, REJECT.... the belief that every component in a CR HPFP system is destroyed by a failed HPFP where that HPFP loads a system with metal particles. It's utter nonsense to believe that every component is ruined.

They don't have their shops equipped to handle metals/contamination cleanups of fuel/hudraulic systems. I do.

I think their position is not that the parts are destroyed so much as they're contaminated with destructo-glitter which, if allowed to pass through the system in the future, could end up damaging one or more parts downstream of them.

How do you clean destructo-glitter (TM) from the systems you work on? Special solvents? I know my attempts have always involved stuff like WD-40, brake cleaner, etc., but these haven't done a good job of lifting the particles from surfaces to which they like to cling.

Maybe it's time we open a dialog with a roundtable of diesel system resurrecters like you and learn a bit about how this is done?

I am still under the impression that the CBEA pressures are many times higher than any other pumps on the market, including trucks and ESPECIALLY including heavy equipment. Am I misinformed? Happens all the time! If I'm not misinformed, then it does seem logical that the margin for error and tolerance for particulate matter is way way way low.

Again, not being argumentative. I'm extremely interested to know more about the work you do and how it could be used to help HPFP failures in the future.

 

[tdiatlast]

While a diesel introduced by Honda would certainly quell my concerns of reliabilty (or at least dealer support), I'm afraid the overall vehicle would be as much fun to drive as an Insight. Instead, can I hope for a BMW 520d Touring for the U.S.?

Tell that to those with Odyssey PS failures, AT failures, and those (like me) that had unrepairable front-end road vibration (at 21k miles). Honda dealer support in the DC area is worse than VW's, in my experience.

 

[Turbine Suburban]

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=2008+acc&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8

 

[WEC4104]

Tell that to those with Odyssey PS failures, AT failures, and those (like me) that had unrepairable front-end road vibration (at 21k miles). Honda dealer support in the DC area is worse than VW's, in my experience.

I think my wording was already pretty clear. I simply stated it would quell MY concerns.

After multiple high-ticket repairs performed by my local Honda dealer, I remain satisfied that I was treated fairly each time. Those personal experiences make ME comfortable with future Honda dealings. I am not obligating anyone else to feel comfortable based on my own experiences.

If you are asking me to "Tell that to those with Odyssey PS failures, ...", then okay, I guess I will ask them to reread my blue paragraph above.

 

[TwoTone]

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=2008+accord+brake+problems&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=2008+acc&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8

Sorry, maybe I'm the only one, but I find it funny throwing in a look Honda has problems too into this thread.

Comparing premature brake pad wear and a $7k fuel system, just doesn't work.

So what if the pads wear too quick, go out buy some aftermarket ones and you're done, what's a customer to do about the fuel system? Can't just go to Autozone and ask for a new fuel system.

 

[Turbine Suburban]

Sorry, maybe I'm the only one, but I find it funny throwing in a look Honda has problems too into this thread.

Comparing premature brake pad wear and a $7k fuel system, just doesn't work.

So what if the pads wear too quick, go out buy some aftermarket ones and you're done, what's a customer to do about the fuel system? Can't just go to Autozone and ask for a new fuel system.

I just put that there to show there are other companies who are held in high regard, yet have problems. BTW,7K would be cheap by the reports in some of these threads.
What is a customer to do about thier fuel system? You know what I did to nip that problem in the bud. At least my new car has the same exact payment.

 

[Honeydew]

Fun facts about metal flake sizes

1. Lower limit of visiblility to the naked eye = 40 microns*

2.

*source: http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-5R3.pdf

 

[Mach1]

Mostro, there is nothing special about the CRD pressures, the trucks have been running those pressures longer then the VW's..I have seen Heui's in that neighborhood..

Its not about the pressures, its about the size of the contaminates that are going through the injectors.

 

[thebigarniedog]

Yes, I've seen posts mentioning Chris Farnham, and he is an easy drive away.

I recognize that the HPFP issues are probably few and far between, and any forum board tends to draw extra attention to problems. In assessing the risk I am looking at both the frequency and the potential repair cost. Knowing there is a small chance I might have to eat a $500 repair is, in my eyes, a whole lot different than knowing there is a small chance of a $10,000 repair. The first is an unlucky event, but the second makes purchasing the car a mistake.

I am also fortunate that I currently have several cars and there is nothing pushing me to a snap decision. The tax incentive is probably the only thing that is time critical. Part of me is also wondering what might be in store for the 2011 model.

Guess I'll continue to hang around here, and maybe even ask the occassional question or two. Thanks for all the good info.

Just a suggestion ...... ask Chris about the HPFP issue and talk to his service manager with him present and see what they will do about it should it become an issue. Just a thought.

 

[Turbine Suburban]

Just a suggestion ...... ask Chris about the HPFP issue and talk to his service manager with him present and see what they will do about it should it become an issue. Just a thought.

What someone "says", and what you have in black and white are two different things, as has been mentioned before. Maybe not concerning hpfp issues, but any issues, any brand. Verbal means nada.

It is short and simple. In order to quell the fears of the few (many) that may be standing on the sidelines, or people like me who bailed just at the thought of an inappropriately expensive repair, VWOA HAS to come up with a warranty on that specific system/part for maybe (?) 100K. Until that happens there will be a certain percentage of lost sales. Unfortunately, (for you current owners) it will not be enough to change much, VWOA will not be bothered.

That is why I think you should have a stickied topic in this and/or the mkVI forum, to highlight and educate anyone to the possibility of this problem. Only those who actually delt with the problem should be allowed to post in it.

Blasphemy, I know, to put such a show stopper topic on a sticky, pooing on your own front step. But to those people dealing with it in a very real ($$) way, well, forewarned is forearmed.

 

[WEC4104]

Just a suggestion ...... ask Chris about the HPFP issue and talk to his service manager with him present and see what they will do about it should it become an issue. Just a thought.

Funny you should mention that suggestion, I was wondering about maybe approaching a dealer and laying the cards on the table. If for no other reason than it lets VWofA know there are folks balking at a new car purchase because of HPFP uncertainties. I realize my raising this question at the dealer isn't going to change the world. But if dealers heard this same concern from 100+ potential buyers, it might make for some interesting discussions at VWofA.

In pondering this approach further, I came to a couple realizations. First, it is going to be very difficult for any dealer to define the issue and grant any special consideration to me. Let's assume for the moment, I knew there were problems with the defroster fan. I might be able to get the dealer to write me a letter saying they would replace any fan failures for 15 years or 150,000 miles, and we could be done with it. However, I can't believe any dealer will put anything in writing that covers suspected "fuel contamination".

Secondly, I doubt a dealer will want to accept potential risk for a $7-10K repair without VWofA backing.

Lastly, I have to consider an out-of-state breakdown. Even if Chris' dealership says they will cover me, my car could quit somewhere between PA and Atlanta (sound familiar?). Then the local dealer says they won't cover it. My home dealer says they might cover it, but only after they inspect the car. Now I have to decide whether to incur the cost of freighting the car home to see if it is covered. Just ugly.

The other thought I had was to look into 3rd party car warranties. Generally I consider these a big waste of money. But depending on how the fuel system wording is written, it might be worth exploring.

 

[thebigarniedog]

Funny you should mention that suggestion, I was wondering about maybe approaching a dealer and laying the cards on the table. If for no other reason than it lets VWofA know there are folks balking at a new car purchase because of HPFP uncertainties. I realize my raising this question at the dealer isn't going to change the world. But if dealers heard this same concern from 100+ potential buyers, it might make for some interesting discussions at VWofA.

In pondering this approach further, I came to a couple realizations. First, it is going to be very difficult for any dealer to define the issue and grant any special consideration to me. Let's assume for the moment, I knew there were problems with the defroster fan. I might be able to get the dealer to write me a letter saying they would replace any fan failures for 15 years or 150,000 miles, and we could be done with it. However, I can't believe any dealer will put anything in writing that covers suspected "fuel contamination".

Secondly, I doubt a dealer will want to accept potential risk for a $7-10K repair without VWofA backing.

Lastly, I have to consider an out-of-state breakdown. Even if Chris' dealership says they will cover me, my car could quit somewhere between PA and Atlanta (sound familiar?). Then the local dealer says they won't cover it. My home dealer says they might cover it, but only after they inspect the car. Now I have to decide whether to incur the cost of freighting the car home to see if it is covered. Just ugly.

The other thought I had was to look into 3rd party car warranties. Generally I consider these a big waste of money. But depending on how the fuel system wording is written, it might be worth exploring.

My suggestion deals with Chris and his service manager ..... not any unkown VW dealer (hence why I named Chris specifically). I agree that my suggestion is meaningless with any other VW dealers, as dealers, "in general", enjoy a reputation along the line of politicians.

Chris generally enjoys a good reputation on this Board. Reputations are earned. I doubt that he would want to screw that reputation up. Again, it is just a suggestions. Obviously, Chris is free to comment on this as he sees fit --- I am sure he has read everything that has been posted here.

 

[hysterwv]

I too am a potential buyer who is now on the sidelines. My B5.5 has 198k miles and I've been considering trading in for a new Jetta. These HPFP issues scare the crap out of me. It really has me thinking that I need to lower my expectations of a car and buy something more pedestrian like a Ford Fusion.

I'd have some level of comfort knowing that there was a dealership on every-other corner and parts would be readily available. I'm starting to ask myself why I want to deal with craziness such as balance shafts of the B5.5 and HPFPs on the newer Jettas. I could spend half the money on a 1-2 year old fusion. Rack up 80,000 miles in 2 years and throw it away. That scenario is starting to make more sense that dealing with these major design flaws.

 

[Rod Bearing]

I too am a potential buyer who is now on the sidelines. My B5.5 has 198k miles and I've been considering trading in for a new Jetta. These HPFP issues scare the crap out of me. It really has me thinking that I need to lower my expectations of a car and buy something more pedestrian like a Ford Fusion.

I'd have some level of comfort knowing that there was a dealership on every-other corner and parts would be readily available. I'm starting to ask myself why I want to deal with craziness such as balance shafts of the B5.5 and HPFPs on the newer Jettas. I could spend half the money on a 1-2 year old fusion. Rack up 80,000 miles in 2 years and throw it away. That scenario is starting to make more sense that dealing with these major design flaws.

There is no design flaw in the TDI fuel system. It works perfectly until a load of contaminated fuel is thrown at it. That isn't just a VW thing either. It's industry wide. I''d be willing to bet good money there have been perhaps less than a handful of actual defects come out of the factory.

 

[Rather Be Biking]

There is no design flaw in the TDI fuel system. It works perfectly until a load of contaminated fuel is thrown at it. That isn't just a VW thing either. It's industry wide. I''d be willing to bet good money there have been perhaps less than a handful of actual defects come out of the factory.

If something as common as mildly contaminated fuel can cause 10k in damage, when the same fuel only causes drivability issues in other cars, then yes, this is a design flaw. None of the cases that I am familiar with have involved a documented contamination problem that damaged other cars and trucks using the same fuel. Our country's fuel refining and distribution system is what it is. Our cars should be able to run on locally available fuel. Also, there are now statements from VW that metal in the fuel system originates from the fuel system -- and technical directives from them that entire fuel system must be replaced when that metal reaches a certain level. This points to something more complex than just bad fuel.

 

[IFRCFI]

The other thought I had was to look into 3rd party car warranties. Generally I consider these a big waste of money. But depending on how the fuel system wording is written, it might be worth exploring.

Lots of anecdotal information out there regarding lubricity, corrosive ULSD, waste byproducts from Bio generation, poor design, etc. There is no answer regarding bio/no bio, additive/no additive, prime/no prime, etc. We are simply grasping at straws.

For me, my 2010 TDI is a roll of the dice. I bought knowing about the DSG issues, CELs, and HPFP problems. They could be isolated, they could be numerous...only time will tell. VW burned me once on a 1980 Rabbit out of Westmoreland, PA. It took almost 30 years to take another chance. I love the car, and so far, so good.

All I know is I'm not going to live my life worrying about when, how and where I fuel or drive. I'm not going to pop the fuel canister every month searching for debris, or worry about every different shift pattern, or tense up with every little sound or discrepancy. For now, I'll drive more and worry less, use an additive, and perform regular VW recommended maintenance, with the exception of 10K fuel filter changes vs 20K. The combination of the factory warranty, 3rd party 7/100, and a lawyer will probably get a severe problem fixed once. And then I'll dump it in a trade, take my loss, and move on...never to look back at VW. You can't worry about things you can't control.

Don't let these cars become an obsession. They are just that...cars.